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Luke_K
Guest
What’s the difference, and why did God make that difference exist such that Adam and Eve COULD sin?
If the people in heaven have free will yet cannot sin, why could Adam and Eve sin?
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davidv
Guest
Adam and Eve were in the garden, not heaven. Huge difference.
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Luke_K
Guest
What’s the difference between the garden and heaven, and why is there that difference? You did not answer the question at all.
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davidv
Guest
The difference is that the garden was not heaven.
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Bohm_Bawerk
Guest
You’ve conflated two stages of Heaven into one, which is the source of your confusion.
We can divide Heaven into two stages: “Ex ante Heaven” and “Ex post Heaven”. Ex ante is just a posh latin word for “before the event”. Likewise, Ex post is a posh latin word for “after the event”.
In Ex ante Heaven (before the creation of Man), the angels certainly were given free will and the ability to sin. One of the definitions of sin is rebellion against God. From that fact, the devil certainly did sin (i.e. rebelled against God), and so did about 1/3 of the angels that followed the devil and are now considered “fallen angels” or demons. St. Thomas Aquinas argued that this was the only point in history where angels had the capacity to rebel against God. As Heaven is outside time and space, the decision these angels made was eternal. So the angels that rebelled against God were rebels for all eternity, and the angels that stayed with God will be angels for all eternity. Neither can the devil repent for his actions as he witnessed God’s glory (Ezekiel 28:14) and was therefore completely culpable for his actions.
In Ex post Heaven (after the creation of Man), those who enter Heaven do have free will, but they can not sin in Heaven. The reason for this is that sin - as stated earlier - is rebellion against God. Sin sent even one of the best of the angels out of Heaven (Ezekiel 28:16). Hence, sin does not reside in Heaven. It follows that Humans who have entered Heaven are not rebellious against God. More clearly, people who enter Heaven have completely conformed their will with God’s will. The choice to act is still done freely, but because their will is aligned with God’s will 100%, those in Heaven can not sin.
The Garden of Eden was not Heaven, and Eve disobeyed God - along with Adam - and so sin was brought into the world. The culpability of Adam and Eve was likewise very high because they were given virtually everything, but were told to stay away from one tree, and couldn’t even manage do that. They had the potentiality to sin, as they had the ability to make choices. Extrabiblically, in economics, Ludwig von Mises considered the capacity to make choices as a distinguishing aspect of Man. He even created a separate study called “praxeology” to investigate Man’s innate nature with respect to choice-making (which he called “human action”).
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Luke_K
Guest
Why didn’t God place them in the heavenly state after their first good deed?
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davidv
Guest
I believe the answer to this question is very involved, not completely known, and off topic. You may want to search CAF for the numerous other threads that have dealt with this topic.
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JimG
Guest
Heaven consists in union with God. The Beatific Vision is the union of a creature with God. Since God is infinite good, the will of one who is united with him in the Beatific Vision will gravitate toward the infinite good just as iron is drawn to a magnet. But that is not the exercise of free will.
In order for man or angels to freely choose God, the Beatific Vision must be delayed.
Suppose a parent could implant a device into their childrens’ brains which would ensure the children are always obedient. That might be a blessing but it would not be something the child chose freely. The child’s obedience would not be the result of love.
God gave both angels and men a test to allow them to make a free choice between themselves and God.
In order for man or angels to freely choose God, the Beatific Vision must be delayed.
Suppose a parent could implant a device into their childrens’ brains which would ensure the children are always obedient. That might be a blessing but it would not be something the child chose freely. The child’s obedience would not be the result of love.
God gave both angels and men a test to allow them to make a free choice between themselves and God.
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Bohm_Bawerk
Guest
You mean Adam and Eve? Well, firstly, this becomes what we call “counterfactual history”. We don’t really know what would have happened had Adam and Eve not eaten the fruit. One can speculate, but again, we can’t really say for sure. It’s like asking, “what would have happened if World War II broke out in 2000 rather than 1939?”.
Not only that, but your question is tautological (which means “redundant” in common parlance). Adam and Eve were made good. They did not know evil. So continuing the logic of your question, why did God make Adam and Eve on Earth in the first place? - after all, they were good, so they should have just been put into Heaven. Why create Earth at all? Why go through all the headache
?
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runningdude
Guest
Actually, its simply because Adam and Eve hadn’t lived out their natural lives yet!
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followingtheway
Guest
Because Satan can’t tempt people up there.
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Stylites
Guest
American planes, full of holes and wounded men and corpses took off backwards from an airfield in England. Over France, a few German fighter planes flew at them backwards, sucked bullets and shell fragments from some of the planes and crewmen. They did the same for wrecked American bombers on the ground, and those planes flew up backwards to join the formation.
The formation flew backwards over a German city that was in flames. The bombers opened their bomb bay doors, exerted a miraculous magnetism which shrunk the fires, gathered them into cylindrical steel containers, and lifted the containers into the bellies of the planes. The containers were stored neatly in racks. The Germans below had miraculous devices of their own, which were long steel tubes. They used them to suck more fragments from the crewmen and planes. But there were still a few wounded Americans, though, and some of the bombers were in bad repair. Over France, though, German fighters came up again, made everything and everybody as good as new.
When the bombers got back to their base, the steel cylinders were taken from the rack and shipped back to the United States, where factories were operating night and day, dismantling the cylinders, separating the dangerous content into minerals. Touchingly, it was mainly women who did this work. The minerals were then shipped to specialists in remote areas. It was their business to put them into the ground, to hide them cleverly, so they would never hurt anyone ever again.
The American fliers turned in their uniforms, became high school kids. And Hitler turned into a baby, Billy Pilgrim supposed. That wasn’t in the movie. Billy was extrapolating. Everybody turned into a baby, and all humanity, without exception, conspired biologically to produce two perfect people named Adam and Eve, he supposed.
-Kurt Vonnegut’s Slaughterhouse-Five
The formation flew backwards over a German city that was in flames. The bombers opened their bomb bay doors, exerted a miraculous magnetism which shrunk the fires, gathered them into cylindrical steel containers, and lifted the containers into the bellies of the planes. The containers were stored neatly in racks. The Germans below had miraculous devices of their own, which were long steel tubes. They used them to suck more fragments from the crewmen and planes. But there were still a few wounded Americans, though, and some of the bombers were in bad repair. Over France, though, German fighters came up again, made everything and everybody as good as new.
When the bombers got back to their base, the steel cylinders were taken from the rack and shipped back to the United States, where factories were operating night and day, dismantling the cylinders, separating the dangerous content into minerals. Touchingly, it was mainly women who did this work. The minerals were then shipped to specialists in remote areas. It was their business to put them into the ground, to hide them cleverly, so they would never hurt anyone ever again.
The American fliers turned in their uniforms, became high school kids. And Hitler turned into a baby, Billy Pilgrim supposed. That wasn’t in the movie. Billy was extrapolating. Everybody turned into a baby, and all humanity, without exception, conspired biologically to produce two perfect people named Adam and Eve, he supposed.
-Kurt Vonnegut’s Slaughterhouse-Five
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JonathonofOhio
Guest
Man was created to have a body and a spirit. He was not made to die. Sin, which is a rebellion against God, caused death to enter the world. Now man dies, and his spirit must leave his body. This was not how God created man. God did not provide a way for man to be saved until after he first sinned, because before sin there was no death and no need for anyone to be saved.
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Krakatoa
Guest
I disagree with the claim that those in Heaven *cannot *sin. If they cannot sin, they don’t have free will. So what is different between the Garden and Heaven (besides the Beatific Vision)? I do not claim to know, but I believe there is (or will be) to us a clarity (about sin and rebellion) in Heaven that was absent (for whatever reason) in the Garden, that would absolutely preclude, by one’s own free will, a repeat of Adam’s deed.
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Jim_Roberts
Guest
I agree with you that Adam and Eve we not in heaven. How do you know that people have free will?
So, in essence, since out bodies are dead, lives on the spirits and your proclaiming spirits have free will?
So, in essence, since out bodies are dead, lives on the spirits and your proclaiming spirits have free will?
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JimG
Guest
Since one is united to God in heaven, to say that those in heaven can sin would be the same as saying that God can sin. But God cannot sin. Why? Does He not have free will? Yes he does. He cannot sin because he cannot negate himself. And since we are united with him in heaven, neither can we negate ourselves. You are right that our minds and wills will have a clarity in heaven that will absolutely preclude sin, because our mind and will will be united to God in the Beatific Vision. And yet, that will not destroy our individuality but enhance it.
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JDaniel
Guest
Luke:
From The Teachings of the Catholic Church, Vol I, pp 273, The MacMillan Co., 1962:
“But it is a matter of Catholic faith that the spirits [angels] have been raised to the supernatural order, that they received grace, and that they possess sanctifying grace and the gifts of the Holy Ghost just like a Christian man here on earth. There was not in them the division between flesh and spirit, between a higher and a lower nature, but there is in them the division between the natural and the supernatural. they have been raised above themselves for a destiny greater than the spirit destiny; they are meant to behold God face to face in Beatific Vision–an end so lofty that no spirit, however excellent, is capable of it without a gratuitous infusion of those higher qualities called grace. Grace with the angels, then, could not be a medicine to heal the wounds of a fall, as it is with man to so large an extent, nor could it be a help to powers weak and anaemic in themselves–spirits have no wounds, spirits are never weak–but grace with angels is essentially the lifting up of a perfect being to a still higher plane, the initiation of a created mind into the secrets of the Uncreated Mind; and without grace even the supreme spirit would be incapable of that communion with God which constitutes the life of charity with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.”
This was just a small part of an entire section on Angelic Sanctity, found in this superb book. It should be gathered that as much as we are like them, they lack the imperfections of human spirits to sin like us. They are said to possess the fullness of knowledge, “not in themselves any weakness, any temptation, any of that division between higher and lower motives which is found in us. They have not the conflicts of any kind of concupiscence, they have no doubts, they are not in danger of forming precipitate judgements; and all of this in virtue of the very principles of their nature.” (Ibid.)
God bless,
jd
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grannymh
Guest
Adam was subject to his Creator and subject to the laws of creation and especially to the moral norms that governed the use of his freedom. Adam could live in God’s friendship only in free submission to God. Adam, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart; thus, he chose to abuse his freedom by disobeying God’s command. For more information read paragraphs 396-401 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.
Blessings,
granny
The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.
Blessings,
granny
The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.
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razredge
Guest
This is in a similar vein to my question I asked in this thread:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=560184
In response to your question - Two possible explanations - either people in heaven (or hell) have no free will, which is why you can’t leave hell, once you make your choice to accept or reject God it’s for good.
Or alternatively they do have free will but through their choices in life towards God, experience of the consequences of sin (either in life or in purgatory) etc they no longer want to sin and perhaps can’t even contemplate the thought of sinning against God. They perfect satisfaction given by God means they have no need to sin either.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=560184
In response to your question - Two possible explanations - either people in heaven (or hell) have no free will, which is why you can’t leave hell, once you make your choice to accept or reject God it’s for good.
Or alternatively they do have free will but through their choices in life towards God, experience of the consequences of sin (either in life or in purgatory) etc they no longer want to sin and perhaps can’t even contemplate the thought of sinning against God. They perfect satisfaction given by God means they have no need to sin either.
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greylorn
Guest
First, let’s acknowledge that your question is generalizable to the entire human race, not just Adam and Eve,
Secondly, it is useful to explain that people in heaven, if they really have free will, could certainly sin. They cannot, however, because there are no sins available to commit.
Everyone in heaven can have whatever he wants, which eliminates a lot of stealing and looting like in New Orleans and Washington, D.C.
There’s no need for reproduction in heaven, so there are no sexual mechanisms, and no built-in instincts and annoying hormones to make it fun enough for humans to want to do it despite the disadvantage of offspring. That eliminates all sins of lust and carnal desire automatically.
Since there is no need to impress members of the opposite sex so as to get laid, there is no lying in heaven. Likewise, since there is no need for things, there is no need to lie about whose harp you stole, since all harps are the same and there is an infinite supply of them.
No one needs houses, cars, food or money in heaven, so no one needs to work. Sins like sloth are irrelevant.
With nothing to steal, politicians will be irrelevant in heaven. Their absence eliminates at least 80% of the lying.
Everyone getting into heaven will be made instantly as smart and knowing as God, and since everyone is beautiful and wears the same brand of glowing toga, there will be no need for upmanship or envy.
There’s no point throwing a punch at someone in an enhanced spirit-body that doesn’t bleed, bruise, or feel physical pain.
The fact that everyone in heaven is already dead pretty much eliminates the need for killing.
Every day is a Sabbath, but there are no asses to haul out of non-existent pits.
There are no other gods in heaven, so who would worship them? God’s name won’t be taken in vain when He is the Big Guy right there in your face, listening, taking the daily roll call of everyone sitting happily at His right hand, strumming away for lack of anything they need to do. It’ll be hard to curse a God who’s given you everything you want. Lots of sins eliminated, right there.
Ultimately there is no sin in heaven because the place is a perfect communist fantasy-land, except without meat-market or bread lines to stand in and sneak to the head of, with nothing either useful or malicious to do. Earth is full of sin because it is a place where there is work to be done, food to be grown, money to be made, sex to be had, children to be raised, infidels to be blown up, and wars to be fought over women, territory, or God— whichever excuse fits best. On earth, thoughts and actions count. In heaven, they are irrelevant.
(This material is copied or paraphrased, with permission, from my website.)
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