L
Linux
Guest
If the permission of good and evil is the only way to create this world, is God justified in Creating it. I say yes.
If the permission of good and evil is the only way to create this world, is God justified in Creating it. I say yes
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R_C
Guest
There is no permission of good and evil. There is a free will to chose to do good or not. Evil is not something per se, but rather the absence of something.
And God is, by necessity, infinitely wise, so it’s not too good of an idea to try to reason whether the Almighty was “justified” in his works. We’d have to be able to grasp His thoughts in order to make such a comment
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tonyrey
Guest
It is unrealistic to believe there could be a world without evil…
L
Linux
Guest
I get the feeling that you intend to make me look like an idiot but you have certainly made a straw-man of what I said. This is not a discussion about what evil is.There is no permission of good and evil. There is a free will to chose to do good or not. Evil is not something per se, but rather the absence of something.
And God is, by necessity, infinitely wise, so it’s not too good of an idea to try to reason whether the Almighty was “justified” in his works. We’d have to be able to grasp His thoughts in order to make such a comment
First of all God does permit evil. He created a world that evolves, which can result in natural evil, or rather pain and suffering. God also created human beings who can choose to do evil. He does not prevent these evils from becoming a reality even though he does not manifest them directly with intent. He therefore permits evil.
And while God is infinitely wiser than us, this does not necessarily mean that we cannot understand whether it is logically coherent or not to create a particular world given the premises presented in the OP.
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zro_x
Guest
any particular reason?
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R_C
Guest
You are getting a really strange feeling. I’d understand if you said I make myself look like an idiot, but I was simply clarifying something that I consider of utmost importance in understanding the core of free will.
See, you miss the point entirely when you say that there can be such thing as natural evil, and that human beings can chose to do evil, and that he does not prevent evils. That unfortunately undermines the understanding of God’s actions. We speak in fact of light and darkness when referring to good and evil. Is there such thing as “darkness”? Is there such thing as “emptiness”? Is there such thing as negative?
No. God, who alone is, created us in His light, and called us to be lights. He allowed us to be free to understand and love him, and do His will.
Human beings don’t chose to do evil. Rather, they chose to not do good, because they prefer things that satisfy the senses only temporarily - things that are not intrinsically evil, but that do not lead to perfect goodness, in fact, they limit it.
It is in fact nonsense for a creature of finite and imperfect intellect to pretend to be able to understand whether or not an act of God is “logically coherent”, no more than an elementary school kid can pretend to discern whether or not the theory of special relativity is logically coherent, or a student in a middle school English class can pretend to discern the logical soundness of an argument by a major philosopher.
Now, we agree that God permits men to chose to not do good. That God permits that there be limited good, in fact even events and behaviors that seem entirely devoid of all good. However, we also know that from these “evils” God can make good things happen, just like a parent disciplines a child by allowing things to be taken away from him for a time, that he may mature and be more open to choosing the greater goods. We also know that in fact suffering is not just an unfortunate aspect of life, but is in fact most often necessary to achieve anything worthy of achieving. Anyone knows this, be a student, an employee, an athlete, a mother bringing a child to this world, a soldier…Suffering, then, is not evil, or certainly not intrinsically evil.
Now, were we made to suffer? No. We were made to experience a joy that is full. We cannot go over how this went wrong in this thread - we’ve had 20 centuries of writings on this topic, enough to know with the certainty of reason alone these things that otherwise we would consider tenets of faith. However, we know from our life experience that the Good News that Christ brings to all those who follow him is this: peace in tribulation.
Nowhere does God tell us that we won’t have tribulation in the world. In fact, even persecution, mockery, death. However, in Him the burden becomes truly light, and we embrace things that make no sense to the world, things rooted on self-renounciation and unconditional love, on forgiveness of offenses and intercession on behalf of our enemies, on charity towards the poor and the suffering. With the love that comes from something greater than us, we are able to do good even through suffering and tribulation, to find peace and yes, even joy, in a world that appears to be submerged in darkness. We do become living lights.
So I get the idea of a thread to understand or speak of the ancient issue of suffering in the world and of free will, but not one about whether God is justified about doing something, or whether this was a sound way to act. He is God, for God’s sake. By His own nature, He knows better.
See, you miss the point entirely when you say that there can be such thing as natural evil, and that human beings can chose to do evil, and that he does not prevent evils. That unfortunately undermines the understanding of God’s actions. We speak in fact of light and darkness when referring to good and evil. Is there such thing as “darkness”? Is there such thing as “emptiness”? Is there such thing as negative?
No. God, who alone is, created us in His light, and called us to be lights. He allowed us to be free to understand and love him, and do His will.
Human beings don’t chose to do evil. Rather, they chose to not do good, because they prefer things that satisfy the senses only temporarily - things that are not intrinsically evil, but that do not lead to perfect goodness, in fact, they limit it.
It is in fact nonsense for a creature of finite and imperfect intellect to pretend to be able to understand whether or not an act of God is “logically coherent”, no more than an elementary school kid can pretend to discern whether or not the theory of special relativity is logically coherent, or a student in a middle school English class can pretend to discern the logical soundness of an argument by a major philosopher.
Now, we agree that God permits men to chose to not do good. That God permits that there be limited good, in fact even events and behaviors that seem entirely devoid of all good. However, we also know that from these “evils” God can make good things happen, just like a parent disciplines a child by allowing things to be taken away from him for a time, that he may mature and be more open to choosing the greater goods. We also know that in fact suffering is not just an unfortunate aspect of life, but is in fact most often necessary to achieve anything worthy of achieving. Anyone knows this, be a student, an employee, an athlete, a mother bringing a child to this world, a soldier…Suffering, then, is not evil, or certainly not intrinsically evil.
Now, were we made to suffer? No. We were made to experience a joy that is full. We cannot go over how this went wrong in this thread - we’ve had 20 centuries of writings on this topic, enough to know with the certainty of reason alone these things that otherwise we would consider tenets of faith. However, we know from our life experience that the Good News that Christ brings to all those who follow him is this: peace in tribulation.
Nowhere does God tell us that we won’t have tribulation in the world. In fact, even persecution, mockery, death. However, in Him the burden becomes truly light, and we embrace things that make no sense to the world, things rooted on self-renounciation and unconditional love, on forgiveness of offenses and intercession on behalf of our enemies, on charity towards the poor and the suffering. With the love that comes from something greater than us, we are able to do good even through suffering and tribulation, to find peace and yes, even joy, in a world that appears to be submerged in darkness. We do become living lights.
So I get the idea of a thread to understand or speak of the ancient issue of suffering in the world and of free will, but not one about whether God is justified about doing something, or whether this was a sound way to act. He is God, for God’s sake. By His own nature, He knows better.
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tonyrey
Guest
There is a possibility that the immense value of existence is relevant…
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zro_x
Guest
good answer.There is a possibility that the immense value of existence is relevant…
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tonyrey
Guest
Thanks.good answer.
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Pugsly
Guest
I have a bit different take on creation…that ends with a “ditto” to your post.
God is free. God is creative. God is merciful. God is love. God is powerful…etc…etc
God was at rest.
God ACTS perfectly in “two directions” so to speak…toward perfect Justice and toward Jesus…Perfect Mercy…
The movement toward the physical humanity of Jesus brings every physical thing (and non-physical beings) into existence
Now…the point I’m making is this…is it wrong for God to Act? Your question seems premised on God’s judgment of the cost/benefit ratio…while…I see creation as almost a byproduct of God’s Perfect Act.
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fhansen
Guest
Yes, its worth it. He obviously dammed it to be worth creating and I agree, even in this messed up world existence is worth it, especially knowing that He came and suffered here along with us, experiencing the worst that human sin would muster against the most beautiful and perfect and innocent being it had ever known.
In the light of the life, teachings, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ our existence takes on a whole new meaning, the ultimate in “positivity” as we come to know God’s love for, and purpose for, man. Then, with Paul, we can say that we consider the sufferings in this life to be nothing.
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