If the Pontiff "Banned" Altar Females, How Many Would REALLY Comply?

[Spiller]

If the Pope Banned females from serving at the altar in the most iron clad/airtight sort of document, how many bishops and priests would simply ignore the directive? What sort (if any) uproar would it cause?

There are directives like only the ordained/instituted should purify vessels and no pouring of the Precious Blood (and many others) that are routinely ignored around these parts. I think this would just be added to the list.

• They are “grandmothered”
• There are no males to serve
• It is a long-held local tradition…
• Females serve better
• The Pope don’t tell me what to do
• etc.

 

[Saint_Gemma]

If the Pope Banned females from serving at the altar in the most iron clad/airtight sort of document, how many bishops and priests would simply ignore the directive? What sort (if any) uproar would it cause?

There are directives like only the ordained/instituted should purify vessels and no pouring of the Precious Blood (and many others) that are routinely ignored around these parts. I think this would just be added to the list.

• They are “grandmothered”
• There are no males to serve
• It is a long-held local tradition…
• Females serve better
• The Pope don’t tell me what to do
• etc.

His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI only has to consider whether or not a discipline makes sense, not whether or not it is popular. Even if His Holiness was the only one who thought that females should not be altar servers, which he is not, he would still be able to ban them, and every Catholic would have to comply under pain of sin.

 

[childofmary1143]

If the Pope Banned females from serving at the altar in the most iron clad/airtight sort of document, how many bishops and priests would simply ignore the directive? What sort (if any) uproar would it cause?

There are directives like only the ordained/instituted should purify vessels and no pouring of the Precious Blood (and many others) that are routinely ignored around these parts. I think this would just be added to the list.

• They are “grandmothered”
• There are no males to serve
• It is a long-held local tradition…
• Females serve better
• The Pope don’t tell me what to do
• etc.

I think you answered your own question. I can say that as prior to the Vatican allowing it in 1994, numerous Bishops broke Canon Law by allowing them. I remember the Bishop of Hamilton Ontario publicly stating that he brought them in the early 80s because:
a) Women could lector
b) Women could administer Holy Communion

 

[rwoehmke]

Has the Pope ever been able to "put the Genie back in the bottle"on any other issues where he has approved of something? Lay people were stopped from giving the homily in the Diocese of St. Paul, but that never had Vatican approval in the first place. I don’t know of any instance where Rome has approved and then back tracked, but would not be adverse to hearing about it if it has happened.

 

[JuanCarlos]

Having altars that faced the people and women altar servers were both liturgical abuses that became so widespread they became normalized.

Sort of like the “If you can’t beat them, join them” approach

 

[Our_Refuge]

Having altars that faced the people and women altar servers were both liturgical abuses that became so widespread they became normalized.

Sort of like the “If you can’t beat them, join them” approach

Having altars where the priest faced the people was never a liturgical abuse. Sometimes the priest faced East and therefore he was also facing the people.
Altar girls and communion in the hand were introduced without Papal approval and were abuses.

 

[EasterJoy]

Has the Pope ever been able to "put the Genie back in the bottle"on any other issues where he has approved of something? Lay people were stopped from giving the homily in the Diocese of St. Paul, but that never had Vatican approval in the first place. I don’t know of any instance where Rome has approved and then back tracked, but would not be adverse to hearing about it if it has happened.

It seems to me that the EF is a case in point. If Rome really makes it a priority to suppress something, then yes, it can be done. Rome will never suppress anything totally, whether it be good or bad, if a sufficient number of the faithful are adamantly opposed to the suppression, but that doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be widely effective.

I don’t foresee Rome expending the effort to do this with altar girls, however.

 

[JuanCarlos]

Having altars where the priest faced the people was never a liturgical abuse. Sometimes the priest faced East and therefore he was also facing the people.
Altar girls and communion in the hand were introduced without Papal approval and were abuses.

Traditionally only Roman Basilicas (St. Mary Major, St. John Lateran, St. Peter’s) were allowed to be built facing west, thus having an ad populum AND ad orientum altar.

The Roman Missal that governed the TLM has directives that don’t make sense unless the altar is facing the East.

Perhaps it was allowed, but it definitely was different. And thanks for bringing up communion in the hand.

 

[whatevergirl]

Having altars where the priest faced the people was never a liturgical abuse. Sometimes the priest faced East and therefore he was also facing the people.
Altar girls and communion in the hand were introduced without Papal approval and were abuses.

So, the Pope just ‘went along with it?’ Our papacy doesn’t strike me as swaying with the popular wind, whichever way the wind blows. Maybe there were bishops who went against the papacy, but I don’t imagine that our Papacy would just allow something it truly felt was not right in the sight of God, because ‘everyone’s doing it.’ Interesting.

 

[JuanCarlos]

So, the Pope just ‘went along with it?’ Our papacy doesn’t strike me as swaying with the popular wind, whichever way the wind blows. Maybe there were bishops who went against the papacy, but I don’t imagine that our Papacy would just allow something it truly felt was not right in the sight of God, because ‘everyone’s doing it.’ Interesting.

Why on earth do you think the prayer for the Jews was changed???

 

[rwoehmke]

So, the Pope just ‘went along with it?’ Our papacy doesn’t strike me as swaying with the popular wind, whichever way the wind blows. Maybe there were bishops who went against the papacy, but I don’t imagine that our Papacy would just allow something it truly felt was not right in the sight of God, because ‘everyone’s doing it.’ Interesting.

If memory serves me, I seem to recall that at one point after the Council that the Bishops in a group like the USCCB had the authority without Romes approval to authorize certain changes in the liturgy like the translations from Latin into the vernacular. If that was so then perhaps the balance between local Bishop’s Councils and the Vatican has shifted back to some extent or the tension has been relieved to by a compromise position.

 

[adrift]

Has the Pope ever been able to "put the Genie back in the bottle"on any other issues where he has approved of something? Lay people were stopped from giving the homily in the Diocese of St. Paul, but that never had Vatican approval in the first place. I don’t know of any instance where Rome has approved and then back tracked, but would not be adverse to hearing about it if it has happened.

It was allowed that first communion would be followed by reconcilliation. In 1972 the pope issued a statement that there would be a return to the traditional of reconciliation comming before first communion. It took quite awhile in these parts for that to be changed.

 

[Our_Refuge]

So, the Pope just ‘went along with it?’ Our papacy doesn’t strike me as swaying with the popular wind, whichever way the wind blows. Maybe there were bishops who went against the papacy, but I don’t imagine that our Papacy would just allow something it truly felt was not right in the sight of God, because ‘everyone’s doing it.’ Interesting.

Yes the Pope went along with it. Altar girls and communin in the hand were both introduced by Bishops without approval. It became so widespread that the Vatican decided to allow it. Altar girls were introduced in 1966 along with the changes in the New Mass. The Bishops decided that since there were women lectors, why not allow altar girls even though both Pope Paul and Pope John Paul ruled otherwise.

*Liturgicae Instaurationes *Pope Paul VI 1970
adoremus.org/LiturgicaeInstaurationes.html
7. In conformity with norms traditional in the Church, women (single, married, religious), whether in churches, homes, convents, schools, or institutions for women, are barred from serving the priest at the altar".

Approved and Confirmed by His Holiness Pope John Paul II April 17, 1980
adoremus.org/InaestimabileDonum.html
Inaestimabile donum 18: "There are, of course, various roles that women can perform in the liturgical assembly: these include reading the Word of God and proclaiming the intentions of the Prayer of the Faithful. Women are not, however, permitted to act as altar servers". **

VATICAN COMMUNICATION ON FEMALE ALTAR SERVERS-1994
2) The Holy See respects the decision adopted by certain Bishops for specific local reasons on the basis of the provisions of Canon 230 2. At the same time, however, the Holy See wishes to recall that it will always be very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar. As is well known, this has led to a reassuring development of priestly vocations. Thus the obligation to support such groups of altar boys will always continue.
3) If in some diocese, on the basis of Canon 230 #2,** the Bishop permits that, for particular reasons, women may also serve at the altar,** this decision must be clearly explained to the faithful, in the light of the above-mentioned norm. It shall also be made clear that the norm is already being widely applied, by the fact that women frequently serve as lectors in the Liturgy and can also be called upon to distribute Holy Communion as Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist and to carry out other functions, according to the provisions of the same Canon 230 #3.

 

[Spiller]

Has the Pope ever been able to "put the Genie back in the bottle"on any other issues where he has approved of something? Lay people were stopped from giving the homily in the Diocese of St. Paul, but that never had Vatican approval in the first place. I don’t know of any instance where Rome has approved and then back tracked, but would not be adverse to hearing about it if it has happened.

Excellent overall question…

Even with indults like purifying the vessels. Once the indult has run out and will not be reviewed, many ignore things.

 

[Spiller]

Having altars that faced the people and women altar servers were both liturgical abuses that became so widespread they became normalized.

Sort of like the “If you can’t beat them, join them” approach

Bull. Please don’t de-rail this thread.

 

[Spiller]

So, the Pope just ‘went along with it?’ Our papacy doesn’t strike me as swaying with the popular wind, whichever way the wind blows. Maybe there were bishops who went against the papacy, but I don’t imagine that our Papacy would just allow something it truly felt was not right in the sight of God, because ‘everyone’s doing it.’ Interesting.

I agree. I think female altar servers were approved for the same reason female readers and EMsHC were approved – there was really no reason for th Church to not approve them.

HOWEVER I think the Church shot herself in the foot in two ways. First she did not know just how offensive this would be to a great many, or the impact it would have on male servers. Second, she did so in a manner that looked as though She was caving-in to dissent. That’s horrible…

 

[Spiller]

It was allowed that first communion would be followed by reconcilliation. In 1972 the pope issued a statement that there would be a return to the traditional of reconciliation comming before first communion. It took quite awhile in these parts for that to be changed.

Excellent example…

Our Latino community pretty much did a walk-out after the RCIA coordinator (now a priest) tried to pull the no confession before first communion a second year in a row. That effectively got him canned from this parish.

 

[Spiller]

Why on earth do you think the prayer for the Jews was changed???

To improve their formulations?

 

[whatevergirl]

I agree. I think female altar servers were approved for the same reason female readers and EMsHC were approved – there was really no reason for th Church to not approve them.

HOWEVER I think the Church shot herself in the foot in two ways. First she did not know just how offensive this would be to a great many, or the impact it would have on male servers. Second, she did so in a manner that looked as though She was caving-in to dissent. That’s horrible…

It is what it is now, though. I’m not a believer on lamenting over history. (not saying you’re lamenting lol ) But, I’m more of…ok, if people sense a problem with the status quo…why not encourage more boys to volunteer? Instead of complaining, or criticizing the Church–what is a solution? If the Church is not going to ban altar girls, then the solution in my eyes, is to encourage your sons to become one. Really-end of story. We’re assuming, a great leap at that, that banning altar girls will resolve so many problems, and I just don’t see the decline of vocations to the priesthood being directly related to this. I think for starters, that we have a lot more cafeteria Catholics than we did, even back in the 70’s, when I was a kid. I think that the lukewarmness of people in general, and I used to be guilty of this myself, has caused a general nonchalance with regards to vocations. It’s not encouraged nor discouraged, in many cases…many parishes. I did not encourage my dd to become an altar server, but a nun selected her, for lack of a better word. My dd was delighted to serve, doesn’t anymore…but the point is that I never encouraged my son to be an altar server, or discouraged him. Guess I thought he’d make such decisions on his own…yeah, right! So, that’s where I think the problem of the decline of men becoming priests stems from…coupled with a myriad of other reasons. If girls serving on the altar fits into it at all, it is the last on the list. I just don’t imagine boys not considering the seminary because of that…

I mean, sitting around clinging to the yesterdays of the Church, complaining about all that is wrong with the mass…isn’t going to change anything. If girls are not banned, we have to do a better job convincing boys that this is a springboard to the priesthood, and encourage them to at least give it a try.

 

[scylla]

I really doubt it, it is very hard to put genies back into bottles.

In my parish we never have the Priests or Deacons purify the vessels. It just is ignored as something we shouldn’t do as it was allowed.

I am not sure that Rome would make the effort to put the genie back in the bottle as there is so much more outright disobedience and dissent that they are more worried about just keeping everything together.

Not only that we have become a very thin skinned Church. People look for reasons to become offended and to seek to be offended. You see the fear of offense in the way everything is written so softly and with a fear of offending any sensibility that makes many documents very soft on teaching.

I am not sure that many Bishops, Priests have the teeth to enforce a ban. There are a few, but most would just let it go, there would be too much resistance.

Here in the United States it would be ignored as compliance would indicate a desire for faithfulness to a male Priesthood and obedience to promoting it. There are too many in power who want to undermine this teaching and do not want vocations to the Priesthood. Too many vocations to the Priesthood destroys the movement for female Priests and undermines the desires of those who are not happy with the Church Jesus set up.

In Christ
Scylla