It is.
If this scenario really happens, then Christ’s did not keep his word, and Christianity is not worth a penny.
If The Pope And All The Preists Were Wiped Off The Face Of The Earth, Where Would That Leave The Catholic Faith?
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If this scenario really happens, then Christ’s did not keep his word, and Christianity is not worth a penny.
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IWantGod
Guest
So the laity have no apostolic power under any circumstance? Are you sure of that?
Surely the body of Christ would survive, no?
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Bookcat
Guest
Your asking questions that have no basis in reality.
You have might as well ask - what if God ceased to be God?
Jesus Christ gave* his promise* - the Gates of Hell will not prevail.
One ought not be concerned with mere logical possibilities…
…and in this case …one can say it is not even that - for such is not going to happen - Christ is faithful!
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Della
Guest
No. God will not let that happen. Any Catholic man may be elected pope. Once he is pope, he would be ordained by popular acclamation–at least I believe that’s how it would work. Of course, this would be the most extreme case of popular acclamation, but I believe it’s possible. The Holy Spirit would confer on the one so acclaimed ordination by the will of the people of God, but only in such an extreme case.
Our system of having candidates from our cardinals is not set in stone. It’s just how things have played out–for practical reasons. We currently use that system as a form of Church governance, but such disciples can change.
I would have complete trust in a popularly elected pope, if were to come to that because Jesus promised he would not leave us and that the Church would survive until he returns.
It would be good to have an expert answer this question, though–if any read this thread and are interested in replying.
Correct, and I am sure. This is de fide Church teaching, and is not subject to negotiation. The only sacramental powers the laity possess are those of Baptism and Matrimony, and then, only under extraordinary circumstances. In all other cases, the laity cannot validly confer sacraments. They cannot absolve, they cannot consecrate the Eucharist and most certainly cannot ordain. No, no no. Period. No.
And no, I will not cite a source. This is so glaringly obvious and basic this should not even be subject to argument.
It could survive the aftermath but only for a time. Without the Sacraments, especially the Eucharist, there is no way the Church can ever survive.
This is why we have the promise of indefectibility.
Yes, yes, we know this will not happen because the Church is indefectible. But the question is hypothetical and so the answer is also hypothetical. The hypothesis is: All bishops and priests are wiped off.
Cardinals, acclamation have nothing to do with all that. The hypothetical is clear: all bishops are wiped off the face of the earth.
One cannot be Pope without being a bishop. And no bishop or ever ordained by acclamation. A Pope can be acclaimed, yes, but if he is not already a bishop, he is ordained one, and by another bishop. A bishop is ordained only by another bishop. Not by a mere priest, and most certainly not by laity. This is de fide. If only laity survive some disaster, with all priests and bishops dead, there is absolutely no chance of a bishop being acclaimed. Impossible.
We KNOW this will not happen because no disaster ever conceivable by man will wipe out every single bishop. This is by definition part of the promise of indefectibility. In any given case we are assured that at least one bishop will remain alive at all times until the coming of Christ. This is certain. It is the hypothetical that is impossible: that all bishops will be wiped out. This is where divine protection comes it. It will not magically give laymen a power they never had to begin with.
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Della
Guest
Well, not all of us are so sure as you are, my friend. You may be misinterpreting just who does and who doesn’t have the necessary authority in such a case.
Again, it’s not “glaring obvious” or we wouldn’t be having this discussion. And it’s perfectly sound apologetics to cites sources, if any exist. There’s no need to be defensive.
The Church has and does exist in areas with no ordained clergy, so that’s not a convincing reply. Baptism may be conferred by anyone, and marriage may be witnessed by non-ordained where none are available, both of which ensures the Church, as the people of God cannot be totally destroyed.
I wouldn’t say indefectibility in this case. I can’t see the connection. Perhaps you mean indestructibility?
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IWantGod
Guest
I’m not sure that what you are saying is true. An election of a Pope from the laity may very well be a sign of Christs promise, that so long as the faith survives in one person the gates of hell will not prevail.
You are also saying indirectly that Gods power is bound up in the established priest hood alone. But in theory the holy spirit could elect a priest, a bishop, a pope etc. We are talking about God.
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Bookcat
Guest
Nope. The Laity cannot elect a Pope.
God has already established the Church on Peter and given him the keys…and the gates of hell will not prevail. God is not going to bring a new revelation - only at the Second Coming of Christ - then the Resurrection!
And second - again there will be no such question anyhow -for this is a question not founded in reality. The reality is Christs word.
Indefectibility IS indestructibility. It is one of the properties of the Church, alongside infallibility. The Church has the divine promise that it will never be destroyed.Well, not all of us are so sure as you are, my friend. You may be misinterpreting just who does and who doesn’t have the necessary authority in such a case.
Again, it’s not “glaring obvious” or we wouldn’t be having this discussion. And it’s perfectly sound apologetics to cites sources, if any exist. There’s no need to be defensive.
The Church has and does exist in areas with no ordained clergy, so that’s not a convincing reply. Baptism may be conferred by anyone, and marriage may be witnessed by non-ordained where none are available, both of which ensures the Church, as the people of God cannot be totally destroyed.
I wouldn’t say indefectibility in this case. I can’t see the connection. Perhaps you mean indestructibility?
I am not misinterpreting anything. This is solid Catholic theology on the Sacraments: only a bishop can ordain another bishop. This is de fide Catholic dogma. Look it up in your Catechism and the writings of the Church councils. They’re all out there.
And I mentioned Baptism and Matrimony already. This is how the Church can survive but only for a time. Without the Eucharist, the Church will undoubtedly collapse. And yet while the faithful may have survived some places, we only need to look at some of the Kirishitan of Japan, where the lack of catechesis over several generations led to a syncretization of Christian and pagan beliefs and practices.
This why again, trusting in God’s promise of indefectibility must require us to believe that at no time will the all bishops be wiped out.
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ComplineSanFran
Guest
The Catholic Church may not survive, for reasons many of you expressed, but what of Christianity? It may well be that the community of faith would carry on quite well. God forbid any of this happens, but there are many Christians who are not Catholic.
What I am saying IS true; it is your position that has no foundation in Scripture or tradition. The Pope is Bishop, and only Bishop ordains Bishop. This is the Catholic faith and a matter of divine, not ecclesiastical law. The Church has no power to change it.
The Church is organized the way God ordained; it is his will that this is how the Church is to be governed. Since he is the one who promised its indefectibility, it is his promise the assures us that a bishop will always survive.
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IWantGod
Guest
So you are saying the holy spirit cannot elect a Pope from the laity?
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GEddie
Guest
Not even in theory.
Apostolic succession is a real physical thing, a laying on of living human hands, from someone who was themselves “handled” recursively, back all the way to the hands of our LORD. Break the chain and it cannot be restored. Full stop.
As well ask if the Church could survive Earth’s falling into the sun. (Actually, that makes more sense, if by then there were human life with priests on another planet.)
ICXC NIKA
Apostolic succession is a real physical thing, a laying on of living human hands, from someone who was themselves “handled” recursively, back all the way to the hands of our LORD. Break the chain and it cannot be restored. Full stop.
As well ask if the Church could survive Earth’s falling into the sun. (Actually, that makes more sense, if by then there were human life with priests on another planet.)
ICXC NIKA
We know he will not. What he WILL ensure is that one bishop remains alive to either become Pope or ordain a Pope,.
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phil19034
Guest
will not happen. you would never have every single Cardinal or every single bishop in one place at one time. There are always some bishops who are too old or sick to travel. The remaining Cardinals (even if over 80) would elect/appoint a new Pope.
If some how all the Cardinals were killed, the remaining bishops would simply ordain a few new bishops and choose a Pope. The Church would rebuild the same way she was built after Christ.
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IWantGod
Guest
But the point is, that he could. The question is then why would that be against Catholic teaching if the entire preist-hood was wiped out?
Your argument only follows given the existence of the priesthood. If at some point they failed to exist, i don’t see why that would mean that God’s promise was a lie.
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Della
Guest
Well, this is why I wrote that it’d be nice to have (name removed by moderator)ut from an authority. I believe the Keys were given specifically to Peter, of course, but bishops have been proclaimed by popular acclamation down through the centuries. I’m sure God would not allow the charism of the priesthood to die out merely because all the bishops and priests had died out. It’s an interesting question, but one that is mote since it isn’t ever going to happen.
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IWantGod
Guest
Christianity would live on as it always has. By the looks of things, according to some posters, Catholicism would be dead.
Because we have to consider that God, out of nothing else but his sovereign will, ordained certain things to be done a certain way, and he did not give the Church the power to do anything else any other way. God ordained that the Church would be hierarchical and would transmit the faith through a sacramental system which includes Holy Orders and Baptism. God has ordained that Holy Orders would be transmitted in an apostolic succession, and no other manner. The Church has accepted this mandate as God’s sovereign design, and he promised the continuation of the Church on this model.
If this divinely-ordained model failed, it leaves a powerless Church, as laity do NOT have the power to ordain. Period. Full Stop. This DOES mean then that God’s promise was a lie. In order to preserve this order, God WILL ensure that at least one bishop survives.
The priesthood and episcopate is an absolute, non-negotiable, essential element to the survival of the Church.
Since God CAN do anything, yes he could. But we also know he won’t. God’s own faithfulness will ensure that his own established order will continue, even to the bare minimum, but it will continue.
Because even if we were to concede that the Holy Spirit will elect a Pope, who is to tell who that person is? Even in our day and age, we have people claiming to have guidance of the Holy Spirit, only to be shown to be dead wrong.
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