If the Pope became Orthodox

[recentrevert]

The pope could never formally proclaim something contrary to the Faith to the whole Church in his office as pope. It is also highly unlikely that the pope could ever be a formal heretic. There is a story, I think about St. John Vianney, that when he was asked what he would believe if the pope said black was white (or something along those lines) the wise child replied that the pope could never say that.

 

[AKDee]

As a new Catholic, I have less personal feelings on the issue of “who’s right” and just want to be sure I’m in the true Church. I think it stands to reason that on the issues of Papal primacy and the Filioque that someone is right, either the Catholic faith or the Orthodox faith. Which also means someone is wrong. I do pray for unity, and if the Catholic church has any errors I hope they are rooted out. I recently bought an Orthodox study Bible because I like to read different study Bibles for the unique commentary in each and in the beginning it has a bit of a history on the Schism. I was fascinated to learn that the Orthodox believe the Catholic faith left them, as opposed to them leaving the Catholic faith the way the protestants did. I guess it makes sense that they feel that way, since they hold themselves to be the true Church of Christ on earth. For purposes of Salvation, I think both Churches are probably fine in terms of them having valid priests, valid sacraments, etc. But if there was a big Council held to reunify the Orthodox and Catholic faiths and I could be reasonably sure that any changes were Inspired by the Holy Spirit, I wouldn’t have a problem with it including if some of the changes leaned towards Orthodox belief. I do tend to think that the primacy of the Pope is Biblical and also just makes sense that Jesus wouldn’t leave us without solid leadership. I’m unsure on the Filioque, I think that could go either way (on the one hand Jesus did say the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, on the other Jesus also said that He and the Father are one) but doubt that it actually affects our Salvation as I think the Trinity issue is extremely complex and it’s doubtful anyone truly understands the nature of the Trinity nor do I think our Salvation depends on fully understanding it.

 

[Deconi]

would you become Orthodox as well?

(I guess it goes without saying that this is a question for Catholics.)

,and remain Bishop of Rome ?..in Pete’s Chair ?

At the drop of a hat!

 

[Genesis315]

There is no question: I would become Orthodox. If the pope is supposed to be the sign of unity and infallible, how can we declare him a schismatic? The main argument (really the only argument) against the Orthodox has been that they broke communion with Rome. It makes no sense to now break communion with Rome if Rome became Orthodox. It would void any argument the west has against the east.

A Pope converting to Eastern Orthodoxy and the Church of Rome becoming an particular Eastern Orthodox Church are two different things. A Pope can cease to be a Pope like, for example, Pope Benedict did. At that point he ceases to be that foundation of unity. The Church of Rome remains the head Church, however. If the Pope converted to another religion, it would serve as tacit resignation and he would cease to be the Pope. He would no longer be the bishop of the particular Church in Rome. The Church of Rome would remain and it would appoint a new head. Remember, the Pope has his ministry because he is bishop of the Church of Rome.

Papal infallibility applies to binding doctrinal judgments made for the whole Church (since the whole Church is infallible). It does not apply to the personal decisions of the Pope. He could certainly sin in any number of ways personally, including the sins of separation.

The entire particular Church of Rome defecting would be a different matter–in that case, it would not just be the person of the Pope leaving, but the “chair” would be going too. If it defected, then I would need to re-evaluate my religion. That might lead to the EO, it might not.

 

[Peter_J]

,and remain Bishop of Rome ?..in Pete’s Chair ?

At the drop of a hat!

Presumably at the drop of a hat, but I couldn’t really say: please note that the people making the claim aren’t around to question, as they were sixteenth century Catholics seeking to have Orthodox become Catholic.

 

[Deconi]

Presumably at the drop of a hat, but I couldn’t really say: please note that the people making the claim aren’t around to question, as they were sixteenth century Catholics seeking to have Orthodox become Catholic.

,and remain Bishop of Rome ?..in Pete’s Chair ?]

Wouldn’t have mattered.

See those 2 statuses / requirements ?
Where he goes, I go!..because I’m following his Master and He’s the One that set that up!

All the musings and treatise of theologians can not divorce this ‘trinity’ of - Pete, Rome, Master.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

He would be excommunicated and we Orthodox would probably have a bishop of Rome. He would have to get used to the downgrade from the Vatican though.

 

[peter26]

In the event of the church defecting to Orthodoxy and not just the Pope personally, I expect there would be a split. Not all Catholics would be happy about becoming Orthodox. There would likely be a “continuing” Catholic Church with some dissenting cardinals taking over the reins and elected a new Pope from amongst themselves. At a local level, whether people leave or stay would be really a matter of politics and personalities e.g. I like my priest and he’s becoming Orthodox so I’ll go too, or the new Orthodox regime said they are going to close my parish and move us to the local Orthodox church, I don’t like that so I’m going to go with the “continuing” Catholic church. Chances are I’d stay with the continuing church.

 

[AKDee]

I sometimes wonder if when people pray for unity in the Church, if they only mean it if the Catholic Church is right, and that if it turned out there were errors in the Catholic Church they would reject the true Church. Obviously I believe the Catholic faith to be true, I am a Catholic- but I’m not so arrogant as to believe that it’s impossible to be wrong. The differences between the Orthodox and Catholic faiths are divisive politically but I think that when it comes to a path to Salvation they both have all 7 sacraments, they both have valid Holy Orders, Confession, Eucharist. It seems the biggest divide between us is actually Pride.

 

[peter26]

I suppose a lot of it is cultural and a matter of how each of us sees our faith. Let’s imagine that the entire Catholic hierarchy became Orthodox, there is no continuing church, other than maybe a few fringe splinter groups already out there. Your options are now Orthodox, Anglican, protestant, or maybe something like the SSPX. Where would you go? And why? I bet a large part of the reason would be to do with who carries out a liturgy similar to what you are used to, prays in the way you are used to etc.

 

[Peter_J]

I sometimes wonder if when people pray for unity in the Church, if they only mean it if the Catholic Church is right, and that if it turned out there were errors in the Catholic Church they would reject the true Church. Obviously I believe the Catholic faith to be true, I am a Catholic- but I’m not so arrogant as to believe that it’s impossible to be wrong. The differences between the Orthodox and Catholic faiths are divisive politically but I think that when it comes to a path to Salvation they both have all 7 sacraments, they both have valid Holy Orders, Confession, Eucharist. It seems the biggest divide between us is actually Pride.

I echo your “I believe the Catholic faith to be true, I am a Catholic”. For the rest … well, I don’t know if I’m comfortable with the way you put it, but I think I agree with some of your underlying complaint.

I’m reminded of many years ago when I was visiting a relative, and we were listening to (or at least discussing) Michael Card and John Michael Talbot’s song “One Faith”. His assessment was positive except that Card is Protestant and “Protestants can’t pray for Christian unity!”

My response: .

 

[AKDee]

I echo your “I believe the Catholic faith to be true, I am a Catholic”. For the rest … well, I don’t know if I’m comfortable with the way you put it, but I think I agree with some of your underlying complaint.

I’m reminded of many years ago when I was visiting a relative, and we were listening to (or at least discussing) Michael Card and John Michael Talbot’s song “One Faith”. His assessment was positive except that Card is Protestant and “Protestants can’t pray for Christian unity!”

My response: .

I often put things awkwardly, it’s tough sometimes to put things right. I’m not trying to offend anyone.

It just seems from some of the comments (and also from some reading I did on the Orthodox Church of America’s website) that pride is a huge obstacle to reunification- on both sides. Either the Orthodox are wrong or we Catholics are- or perhaps both (perhaps the Orthodox are right on the Filioque and wrong about Papal supremacy, for example) but from the things I read it seems like people want unification- but only if it means they don’t have to change. I haven’t run across many people that are open to the idea that there may be errors in their own Church. But as human beings, there is always that possibility. I find it alarming that people will say that if reunification occurs but they have to become in the slightest way more Orthodox they would support splintering off into yet another group.

 

[Deconi]

I suppose a lot of it is cultural and a matter of how each of us sees our faith. Let’s imagine that the entire Catholic hierarchy became Orthodox, there is no continuing church, other than maybe a few fringe splinter groups already out there. Your options are now Orthodox, Anglican, protestant, or maybe something like the SSPX. Where would you go? And why? I bet a large part of the reason would be to do with who carries out a liturgy similar to what you are used to, prays in the way you are used to etc.

WHOEVER is Bishop of Rome, In Pete’s stead, is where I’ll be.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to separate those two things from the mandate and the Keys given by Christ, WHO ultimately is ‘The Catholic Church’

Just sayin’

 

[peter26]

Even if he’s just an Orthodox bishop with no more authority than any other bishop? The Pope’s authority stems from the office. No office, no Pope, no authority.

 

[Deconi]

I sometimes wonder if when people pray for unity in the Church, if they only mean it if the Catholic Church is right, and that if it turned out there were errors in the Catholic Church they would reject the true Church. Obviously I believe the Catholic faith to be true, I am a Catholic- but I’m not so arrogant as to believe that it’s impossible to be wrong. The differences between the Orthodox and Catholic faiths are divisive politically but I think that when it comes to a path to Salvation they both have all 7 sacraments, they both have valid Holy Orders, Confession, Eucharist.** It seems the biggest divide between us is actually Pride**.

That emboldened bit - although a different subject or thread - is the root of the issue…for some, of course!

 

[Deconi]

Even if he’s just an Orthodox bishop with no more authority than any other bishop? The Pope’s authority stems from the office. No office, no Pope, no authority.

If he remains Bishop, of Rome, in Pete’s Chair ??..I CANNOT care if he declared all protestant ‘beliefs and practices’ the norm for Catholics!!

It’s the KEYS that’s the ‘problem’

Christ said he (Peter) can declare (open and close) whatever he ‘wants’ with them!

My faith is ABSOLUTE that He knew what He was doing and saying, and so have no problem TRUSTING that He ‘steers’ (guide) HIS Church that He built as He said He would.

 

[peter26]

So the Pope becomes Orthodox. The Orthodox church say “Great, we don’t have a bishop covering Rome, you can have the job”. So he’s a regular bishop, in a different church. You would still consider he has the authority of the papacy, just because he’s been appointed to a particular diocese than in the Orthodox church would not be associated with any authority beyond that of a bishop?

 

[Deconi]

So the Pope becomes Orthodox. The Orthodox church say “Great, we don’t have a bishop covering Rome, you can have the job”. So he’s a regular bishop, in a different church. You would still consider he has the authority of the papacy, just because he’s been appointed to a particular diocese than in the Orthodox church would not be associated with any authority beyond that of a bishop?

Just so I am clear, the Pope cannot ‘convert’ to Orthodox because we are ONE and the SAME! (Yeah, I said it!) A ‘left lung’ is not separated from the ‘right lung’ even though a body can function on one!

An Orthodox who ASSUMES the role of Bishop of Rome - in Pete’s Chair - will get my vote! The problem for him will be between he, and The One Who established the Church! Not me.

It’s the same if a monarch or Civil Leader usurp the Bishop of Rome as ASSUME that position. I will be left with NO CHOICE but to follow that person.

There are Mormon bishops and other similar protestant bishops in Rome at this moment! But they are ‘meaningless’ to the question without That Seat and those KEYS!

 

[Deconi]

The question or issues of Ordination and valid orders - which are requirements to satisfy a Bishopric status - will be sorted by the other Sees and councils etc, as they did in the past, and will no doubt IDENTIFY who the valid successor (if death took the previous occupier) or will re-instate one who escaped!

Until then, Bishop, Rome, Master, is basic.

All this is exampled in history.

 

[SyroMalankara]

So the Pope becomes Orthodox. The Orthodox church say “Great, we don’t have a bishop covering Rome, you can have the job”. So he’s a regular bishop, in a different church. You would still consider he has the authority of the papacy, just because he’s been appointed to a particular diocese than in the Orthodox church would not be associated with any authority beyond that of a bishop?

Guess it depends on how it’s done. If the Pope infallibly declares schism over, doesn’t retire his Latin Church Roman Diocesan See, and all things stay the same, I guess he’s the Pope. If he resigns his Papacy, another is elected or about to be, and the EmeritusPope become Orthodox, then it depends on the man’s charisma I guess. It would be strange for the Orthodox Synod to assign him to a major See like Rome, were that to happen. It would see like a deliberate provocation.