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adrian
Guest
or any council
oh,by the way this is my first time writing on these forums so hello to everyone!
oh,by the way this is my first time writing on these forums so hello to everyone!
If the pope is infallible in matters of dogma..then what is the point of ecumenical councils?
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MountCarmel
Guest
Yes, the Pope does have infallibility in matters of official dogma, but that is not to say he never needs to listen to others first, because it may be the case that the Holy Spirit guides him from time-to-time through the ‘voices and apparent opinions of others’ - it is however the teaching that the Pope has ultimate discernment and authority.
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Joe_5859
Guest
Welcome! (Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
The short answer is: because Jesus had 12 apostles, not just 1.
Though Peter is the rock and his successors have certain responsibilities and assurances of the Spirit that are unique to that office, that doesn’t mean the others are just decoration. The other bishops also enjoy certain charisms as a result of their ordination. This includes speaking together in union with the pope at ecumenical councils.
Although the pope has these charisms, he is still human. I’m sure help is always appreciated. No one can run the Church by themselves.
The short answer is: because Jesus had 12 apostles, not just 1.
Though Peter is the rock and his successors have certain responsibilities and assurances of the Spirit that are unique to that office, that doesn’t mean the others are just decoration. The other bishops also enjoy certain charisms as a result of their ordination. This includes speaking together in union with the pope at ecumenical councils.
Although the pope has these charisms, he is still human. I’m sure help is always appreciated. No one can run the Church by themselves.
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Todd_Easton
Guest
A similar question was asked recently: Why are there councils such as the Council of Nicea for example if the bishop of Rome can just say something and that's it?
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Crocus
Guest
The Pope does not act in isolation when proclaiming infallibly, but in union with all the bishops and indeed with the full body of the Church, the people. Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman illustrated this in his text On Consulting the Faithful, regarding the Arian heresy.
“not the wise and powerful, but the obscure, the unlearned, and the weak constitute her real strength. It was mainly by the faithful people that Paganism was overthrown; it was by the faithful people, under the lead of Athanasius and the Egyptian bishops, and in some places supported by their Bishops or priests, that the worst of heresies was withstood and stamped out of the sacred territory.”
The church (people, bishops, Pope) just knows, by the Holy Spirit’s grace, what is true. It is then the Pope’s duty to proclaim it.
“not the wise and powerful, but the obscure, the unlearned, and the weak constitute her real strength. It was mainly by the faithful people that Paganism was overthrown; it was by the faithful people, under the lead of Athanasius and the Egyptian bishops, and in some places supported by their Bishops or priests, that the worst of heresies was withstood and stamped out of the sacred territory.”
The church (people, bishops, Pope) just knows, by the Holy Spirit’s grace, what is true. It is then the Pope’s duty to proclaim it.
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pianistclare
Guest
Governance.
Everyone has to be on the same page.
Get a bunch of people in other places together and watch the breakdown over mayonnaise or miracle whip.
It’s just that simple. Councils are called for clarification and enforcement.
Everyone has to be on the same page.
Get a bunch of people in other places together and watch the breakdown over mayonnaise or miracle whip.
It’s just that simple. Councils are called for clarification and enforcement.
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De_Maria
Guest
Hi and welcome
The point of ecumenical councils is manifold:
1st. communication to the universal Church. There’s no point in the Pope being infallible if he’s the only one who knows the truth.
2nd. Problem resolution. Do you remember when Jesus said to St. Peter,“Simon, Simon, Satan wants to sift you like wheat butI will pray to my Father that you be strengthened. And when you return, help your brethren”
This is how the charism of infallibilty has been applied by all Popes in history. The Church engages heresy and in exumenical council and the help of the Pope, resolves the matter infallibly.
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PJM
Guest
Welcome!
What needs to be understood is that ecumenical [world-wide] councils can ONLY be formed by the direct order of the reigning POPE. And “Never without him”
The infallibility of such councils when teaching infallibility on matter on Faith, and OR Moral only; also REQUIRES the approval of the POPE to be legitimate. [binding]
Councils are called and formed to discuss USUALLY a pressing issue that needs to be clarified; because of differing opinions, but at times are broader in their agenda, which needs ROMES approval to be mandated.
What needs to be understood is that ecumenical [world-wide] councils can ONLY be formed by the direct order of the reigning POPE. And “Never without him”
The infallibility of such councils when teaching infallibility on matter on Faith, and OR Moral only; also REQUIRES the approval of the POPE to be legitimate. [binding]
Councils are called and formed to discuss USUALLY a pressing issue that needs to be clarified; because of differing opinions, but at times are broader in their agenda, which needs ROMES approval to be mandated.
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adrian
Guest
didn’t a pope(forgot his name) in the 20th century declare the immaculate conception as dogma without a council and invoking infalliblity?
or for that matter the proclamation of 1983 canon law?
or for that matter the proclamation of 1983 canon law?
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Joe_5859
Guest
Pius XII defined the Assumption in 1950. The Immaculate Conception was in 1854 by Pius IX. Both were exercises of papal infallibility.
The Code of Canon Law is not an exercise in infallibility. It includes many disciplines (e.g. what days are holy days of obligation, fasting before receiving the Eucharist) that are changeable practices, not a matter of doctrine.
The Code of Canon Law is not an exercise in infallibility. It includes many disciplines (e.g. what days are holy days of obligation, fasting before receiving the Eucharist) that are changeable practices, not a matter of doctrine.
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An1OrthodoxChristian
Guest
Of the First 7 Ecumenical Councils, how many did the Pope call?
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Lucretius
Guest
The Pope is the head of the college of Bishops, who together exercise the authority and duties of the Apostles over and to the Church, not an absolute monarch over the guardianship over the Gospel and its meaning and the governance over the Church.
The Pope doesn’t exercise ex cathedra apart from either the Church as a whole or the collective successors of the Apostles, but rather exercises the same powers that all the Apostles have collectively, given to them by Christ, as an individual, with their support and guidance. Does that make sense?
Christi pax.
The Pope doesn’t exercise ex cathedra apart from either the Church as a whole or the collective successors of the Apostles, but rather exercises the same powers that all the Apostles have collectively, given to them by Christ, as an individual, with their support and guidance. Does that make sense?
Christi pax.
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Crocus
Guest
Thanks Joe for your short & sweet answer to @adrian.
I don’t know those dates off the top of my head - had to do a search. Lifted my heart to find the following (bolding is mine)
POPE PIUS IX PROCLAIMS THE DOGMA OF THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION
On December 8, 1854, having spent all of his holy life – his boyhood, his priesthood, as bishop, cardinal and Pope – at the feet of the Mother of God, the most Blessed Virgin Mary, and having deeply considered also, in his exile at Gaeta, the earnest petitions of Catholics all over the world in its behalf, Pope Pius IX defined ex cathedra, in the glorious Basilica of Saint Peter’s before one hundred and seventy bishops and innumerable pilgrims come literally from the ends of the earth, the divine dogma of Our Lady’s Immaculate Conception. The voice of the Sovereign Pontiff broke and tears filled his eyes as he paused before uttering the infallible words:
“We declare, pronounce and define that the doctrine which holds that the Blessed Virgin Mary, at the first instant of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace of the Omnipotent God, in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of mankind, was preserved immaculate from all stain of original sin, has been revealed by God, and therefore should firmly and constantly be believed by all the faithful…”
I don’t know those dates off the top of my head - had to do a search. Lifted my heart to find the following (bolding is mine)
POPE PIUS IX PROCLAIMS THE DOGMA OF THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION
On December 8, 1854, having spent all of his holy life – his boyhood, his priesthood, as bishop, cardinal and Pope – at the feet of the Mother of God, the most Blessed Virgin Mary, and having deeply considered also, in his exile at Gaeta, the earnest petitions of Catholics all over the world in its behalf, Pope Pius IX defined ex cathedra, in the glorious Basilica of Saint Peter’s before one hundred and seventy bishops and innumerable pilgrims come literally from the ends of the earth, the divine dogma of Our Lady’s Immaculate Conception. The voice of the Sovereign Pontiff broke and tears filled his eyes as he paused before uttering the infallible words:
“We declare, pronounce and define that the doctrine which holds that the Blessed Virgin Mary, at the first instant of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace of the Omnipotent God, in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of mankind, was preserved immaculate from all stain of original sin, has been revealed by God, and therefore should firmly and constantly be believed by all the faithful…”
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adrian
Guest
well yeah,this is my point. if a council is not needed for a dogma sometimes…then why is it needed the rest of the times?
in sort either the pope is infallible or he just has an absolute veto over councils
in sort either the pope is infallible or he just has an absolute veto over councils
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Crocus
Guest
I’m sorry, I perhaps expanded your question in my reply; basically your question was about the purpose of councils.
My understanding is that a council would meet (agenda set by the Pope) for information sharing, discussion of general and particular issues of the time, and for making decisions. Any particular council might not have need to address a doctrinal matter.
My understanding is that a council would meet (agenda set by the Pope) for information sharing, discussion of general and particular issues of the time, and for making decisions. Any particular council might not have need to address a doctrinal matter.
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Crocus
Guest
It is not the Pope that is infallible, it is the office, “chair,” position, within strictly defined circumstances, that is infallible.
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jcrichton
Guest
Hi, Adrian!
Welcome to the forum!
I think you are confusing elements here.
The infallibility of the Pope is in matters of Faith; that is, the Pope cannot teach heresy as sound doctrine.
Ecumenical councils are brought about by the need to study matters of Faith… for example the Canon of the Bible.
It would be a simple dictatorship if a person were to make doctrine due to his own understanding and convictions without any regards to anything of the Faith.
Infallibility does not mean that the Pope has a direct line from God or that God dictates things for the Pope to write down as Doctrine. This happens outside the Church where individuals claim that angels or Jesus dictated things for them to write (usually going contrary to prior Oral and Written Revelation: Scriptures).
Maran atha!
Angel
Welcome to the forum!
I think you are confusing elements here.
The infallibility of the Pope is in matters of Faith; that is, the Pope cannot teach heresy as sound doctrine.
Ecumenical councils are brought about by the need to study matters of Faith… for example the Canon of the Bible.
It would be a simple dictatorship if a person were to make doctrine due to his own understanding and convictions without any regards to anything of the Faith.
Infallibility does not mean that the Pope has a direct line from God or that God dictates things for the Pope to write down as Doctrine. This happens outside the Church where individuals claim that angels or Jesus dictated things for them to write (usually going contrary to prior Oral and Written Revelation: Scriptures).
Maran atha!
Angel
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twf
Guest
The Pope’s personal exercise of the Church’s infallibility is a rarity in terms of defining dogma. The vast majority of dogmas were defined by ecumenical councils. Tradition thus shows us that councils are the normative means of defining dogma. The Pope has been entrusted with extraordinary authority for the good of the Church, but he is not meant to operate in a vacuum. Look at Scripture. Our Lord did first set apart St Peter and entrusted to him, in a singular manner, the keys and the power to bind and loose (see Matthew 16). Yet two chapters later Our Lord entrusts the same power of binding and loosing to the other apostles. Note that He didn’t give the power to Peter and then have Peter delegate to the others. Thus the authority of the bishops as a whole is just as much directly from the Lord as the pope’s own authority is. The college of bishops - head and body - are meant to work together by the Lord’s own design.
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twf
Guest
None directly. But his approval was solicited and required.
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