So, if someone came up to you and asked you which denomination in Christianity they would find the truth that Jesus promised He would lead us all to, where would you send him and how would you show that person that that particular denominations beliefs are apostolic?
That is a good answer and I feel that is also the application each denomination would concur with and practice. This particular scenario lends itself to even two priests who both are lining up with the Churches teaching but still have disagreements with how they feel the Holy Spirit is leading and manifesting Himself in the life of the Church and the believers there. No one necessarily going against the set tenets of faith.
Hi V,
Well, then nothing has ever been amiss in the CC ?(on faith/morals/ doctrine).
Yes ,all pastors have counseled with it’s sheep, and confessing is part of that. But it is not held that without it they are not forgiven. it is not held that Christ will only hear/absolve thru the “overseer”.]Clement of Rome: “…”
John Chrysostom: “…"
Right on. You confess to God! Interestingly, through these men, as they were both clergy and certainly took confessions(I am a huge fan of Chrysostom)
Of course , then being Catholic is "voluntary’’. Yet if you are Catholic it is/was mandatory, on some kind of timely or scheduled basis (yearly?)
Probably ? So we both have not fully read all his texts on the subject ? I will not assume then that at any place he suggests/condones what is practiced by many today, on both sides of the issue .
I beg to differ, and offer as inspection the brethren in those ''other" churches.
yes, but i said spiritually engaged. Entertainment /amusement has it’s origins in
yes and no brother . it is His Wind after all , that moves you. I am glad you did not set feelings aside(OK if based on truth)
Yes, that is why I said,"that sometimes the homily is of second importance…in CC… then the Word in the Host has preeminence to His actual Word (in the Homily).
Yes but show me where Writ says to spiritually grow by eating the Word thru the mouth as we do thru the ear ?
I would invite him to my Anglican parish. But I would also be more broad than that. Christ’s promise is found in the means of grace He offers in word and sacrament. It can be found in the Catholic church down the street, or the Orthodox one across town, or the Lutheran one in the next block. Our divisions are not His divisions, and the means of grace transcend our divisions. Does that mean it’s okay that we’re divided? No, because of of His call that we all be one.
Given that the only authoritative interpreters of the CCC would be our episcopate, I will venture forth and say that while the Spirit makes use of all Christian communities, they do not possess the “fullness of truth” and that their means of salvation is via “extraordinary grace” as explained to me by Sister Marge at my parish. And those that knowingly rely on extraordinary grace will quite probably not find it.
Of the Orthodox, you’re absolutely right. But they have anciently held to the Roman Bishop being a “first among equals”. The Latins think (maybe correctly) that the phrase is a contradiction. He’s “first”. But no doubt, the degree of centrality of the Papacy is something that has developed over time.
To which the leadership of our Church takes very serious issue in a visible, authoritative way.
It’s the class of Christians that descend from the European reformers of the 16th century that taught “personal revelation” via the Spirit as opposed to that “corrupt, hierarchical priesthood” as the source of God’s truth. That’s the core problem.
On matters of the deposit of faith, they’re not allowed to disagree with the truth of the Church. A Catholic priest that wants to argue against baptism shall no longer be a priest in rather short order.
Hey Ben,
On faith/morals/doctrine? Nope. Never. Now in terms of their execution by people (including those in the episcopate)? Oh yeah. Any Catholic to deny that is blind to both history and the present.
Barring extraordinary grace, yes it is held. John 20:23. From the very start of Christianity.
We do differ.
I think it’s man’s doing. I recall some very devout primitive charismatics and their affinity for snake-handling during their services.Makes me think of a Baptist Church that was recently built just outside our city limits (this must make the 30th Baptist Church in our county - no joke) that turns the lights off, (no windows), uses very professional scaffold-mounted stage lighting, smoke effects and a huge digital back-drop where the colors and shapes change depending where they are in the service.
We’re at mass to worship our God and Savior, so we do exactly what Christ asked us to do in remembrance of Him - Luke 22:19-20.
Missed this one.
Well said.
Pope Francis had this interesting video sent to Kenneth Copeland minister’s conference and he said we are family and separated by sin and that we all are to be blamed for this:
And of course, that is the Catholic viewpoint. I’ve never believed that grace is dependent on institutional membership, nor have I ever believed that the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church exists only in one institutionVonsalza;14563233]Given that the only authoritative interpreters of the CCC would be our episcopate, I will venture forth and say that while the Spirit makes use of all Christian communities, they do not possess the “fullness of truth” and that their means of salvation is via “extraordinary grace” as explained to me by Sister Marge at my parish. And those that knowingly rely on extraordinary grace will quite probably not find it.
Heck, I believe that, and I believe the Roman See is in many wAys the center of the Church on Earth. None of that confirms universal jurisdiction
The ironic part of this response is this is exactly what some Catholics do. They put various communions together under the heading Protestant then argue against them as if they are one.
Yes they have come much further than many expected.
Hi V,Missed this one.
Every time someone like Origen writes about a particular issue, it would be unwise and irrational to expect them to present a full, systematic explanation of each concept that relates to the issue at hand. The writing would be impossible unwieldy.
You could assume, however, that he was a member of my Church.
Hi V,
Amen. I say “Reformation, you say"Counter Reformation”.
Again, the apostles preached faith in Christ crucified for the forgiveness of sins and did not hear auricular confession the way it is done and believed today.
It is required once a year to confess grave (mortal ?) sins once a year- Canon 989
Quite carnal isn’t it ? But be careful, there are plenty of planks to go around for many eyes. I mean i have seem some pretty wild Catholic stuff round the world also.
Greetings Ben.
Isn;t there autoexcommunication for certain sins today and general absolution sometimes given, without the particular sins being heard?
I watched it. It is mind-boggling that these two are communicating.
That is about your third slam against the Baptists on this thread…
Hi Tommy
Confession of sins used to take place in front of the entire congregation. The only reason this stopped was because non Christians were coming around with the intent of gathering dirt on believers.
The Anglican Bishop who initiated this virtual meeting has since passed. So I’m assuming the communication ceased. However, still nice to see the Pope and Evangelicals acting civilized and not anathematizing one another.
I don’t think “institutional membership” is the point either. The point is submission to Christ’s Church - of which we read only one was established. One might be able to reasonably conclude that if they can’t track the visible existence of their “brand” all the way back to Christ without interruption, it’s probably not a valid candidate for The Church.
I’m not sure anything can ever “disprove” our own beliefs, even if they might be heretical (especially when one rejects the authoritative priesthood). It’s worth pointing out that The first council was in Jerusalem, the second in Antioch and Paul operated out of Rome. What did these three locales have in common?
What allows the Catholic to do it is the fact that all these competing groups hold certain doctrines in common, which the ancient Church holds as false. Personal revelation, sola scriptura, sola fide and others. These are the bedrocks of Protestantism.
This is incorrect. I was merely pointing out that when a Church Father mentions a doctrinal concept in a passage, it would be silly to assume that their quip was all they had to say about it unless the expressed purpose of the passage is to systematically define the concept, like Origen’s purpose for his “Principiis”.
For the C and O, we actually can. Not for the P.
The Apostles were directly appointed by Christ, who in their Christ-given authority elected Mattias to replace Judas. They went on to appoint visible successors as well (Timothy, Titus, Barnabas, and so on…).
The Pope isn’t a “prophet” any more than all the other Bishops are “prophets”. He’s a holy, but fallible man just like any other.
No doubt the Church has developed over the centuries - and praise God for it. But the passage specifically gives the apostles the power to forgive and retain sins by Christ Himself. A “by Writ” Christian, respectfully, doesn’t get to ignore that part of the Writ.
That’s for the clarification. However, I would urgently plead for any Catholic who has committed such sin to confess it as quickly as possible. I imagine my position is not unique.