If the priesthood of all believers rejects heirarchy, why have a leadership structure?

[Debbie_Kono]

As there are some that deny the trinity and even some aspects of Christ’s divinity, that’s quite the pressing question.

The notion that there could be a binding answer of any sort for all Protestantism is quite the myth; as I learned in my last days as an adherent.

I think most Protestant churches adhere to the Nicene Creed. At least the Vineyard church I attended did. Of course they put asterics after “one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church” and “one baptism for the forgiveness of sins”. Pretty safe to assume these “asterics” didn’t appear when the Creed was created?

 

[Nicea325]

I think most Protestant churches adhere to the Nicene Creed. At least the Vineyard church I attended did. Of course they put asterics after “one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church” and “one baptism for the forgiveness of sins”. Pretty safe to assume these “asterics” didn’t appear when the Creed was created?

Indeed, they did not appear. It probably would have been used by heretical groups.

 

[josephback]

And thousands of denominations is an imagination or a reality? Non-Catholics are always asking Catholics: Show me from Scripture

Kindly show me from Scripture the concept of denominations all sharing the “basic” essentials?

And like some others on this thread have attempted they should be answered with Scripture, while touching on different hermeneutics as the real issue. Otherwise one must call the bluff; for if the Scripture is the sole rule and norm by which to judge the veracity of a doctrine, then one is effectively admitting the Church was rudderless for its first four or five centuries.

The bigger issue at hand is that Catholic ecclesiology is based on Christology, and therefore to call the Church “Body of Christ” while holding to a denominational understanding of it implies a divided or confused Christ, which is not so. For Paul tells us that the Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion, but of order, as in all the Churches.

 

[Nicea325]

And like some others on this thread have attempted they should be answered with Scripture, while touching on different hermeneutics as the real issue. Otherwise one must call the bluff; for if the Scripture is the sole rule and norm by which to judge the veracity of a doctrine, then one is effectively admitting the Church was rudderless for its first four or five centuries.

The bigger issue at hand is that Catholic ecclesiology is based on Christology, and therefore to call the Church “Body of Christ” while holding to a denominational understanding of it implies a divided or confused Christ, which is not so. For Paul tells us that the Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion, but of order, as in all the Churches.

Exactly! I am not sure why so many continue to insist Scripture is the sole rule and norm? As you stated, if it were true, then the church was walking blind in matters of faith and morals without the Bible for centuries.

 

[pablope]

I did not

say that Christ was not indispensable. Just to clarify. If you can convince me from Scripture that the Catholic concept of Apostolic Succession is instituted by Christ, then I will be believe it. Otherwise, I do not. It is simple as that.

And what would be the standard or yardstick by how you would measure Apostolic succession as true?

Your own interpretation of Scripture?

Even the OC believe in it…so you think their belief in Apostolic succession is false?

You may believe I am in rebellion, but I remain faithful to the gospel of Christ that I received and that has been revealed in Scripture.

 

[Nicea325]

Originally Posted by ltwin View Post
I did not say that Christ was not indispensable. Just to clarify. If you can convince me from Scripture that the Catholic concept of Apostolic Succession is instituted by Christ, then I will be believe it. Otherwise, I do not. It is simple as that.

I have been waiting patiently for you to show me where Christ instituted denominations? Then I too can become Protestant. As of now, I do not…likewise…it is simple as that

 

[ltwin]

And what would be the standard or yardstick by how you would measure Apostolic succession as true?

No. If the Orthodox Church wants to maintain an historic episcopate, I don’t particularly care. If they want to organize their church on a congregational or presbyterian model, I particularly don’t care either.I don’t think any one particular version of church order is mandated in Scripture, so it’s not a primary concern.

If their belief in Apostolic Succession gives them the belief that other churches are not true churches, that is a problem from my point of view, but not something that I particularly lose sleep over.

I don’t see belief in Apostolic Succession as a de-churching matter, so I wouldn’t call the Orthodox false churches over the fact that they believe they have episcopal lines stretching back to the Apostles. My concern would be whether Orthodox bishops today are godly men who are teaching authentic Christian teaching. As long as they are, I don’t care how old their episcopal lines are. It’s irrelevant to me.

You are forgetting one thing here…it is according to your interpretation…of what that Gospel is.

Yes, and your interpretation is that you defer to the interpretation of others. I understand.

 

[ltwin]

Originally Posted by ltwin View Post
I did not say that Christ was not indispensable. Just to clarify. If you can convince me from Scripture that the Catholic concept of Apostolic Succession is instituted by Christ, then I will be believe it. Otherwise, I do not. It is simple as that.

I have been waiting patiently for you to show me where Christ instituted denominations? Then I too can become Protestant. As of now, I do not…likewise…it is simple as that

I have no desire to make you Protestant. As to denominations, Scripture says nothing about them, as it says nothing about a magisterium or an infallible Pope.

 

[James248]

I have no desire to make you Protestant. As to denominations, Scripture says nothing about them, as it says nothing about a magisterium or an infallible Pope.

Matthew 16, Luke 22, John 21…

 

[MartinJordan]

Matthew 16, Luke 22, John 21…

How do we know these are Scriptures?

MJ

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

I have no desire to make you Protestant. As to denominations, Scripture says nothing about them, as it says nothing about a magisterium or an infallible Pope.

Actually, Scripture does say something about denominations. Jesus prayed that His followers be one, not many.

John 17:19-23

And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and cloved them even as you loved me.

 

[Wannano]

Actually, Scripture does say something about denominations. Jesus prayed that His followers be one, not many.

John 17:19-23

And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and cloved them even as you loved me.

Ok, so with the concept that all Christianity should only be Roman Catholic, and no other, then the world would believe that God sent Jesus into the world? We are constantly reminded that the CC was the only church in existence for some 1500 years. There was no Protestantism (at least not enough to confuse the world observing Christianity). So does history bear out the fact that because there was only “one” during that time frame that it was spiritual utopia? Does history show that the world marveled and believed that God sent Jesus into the world as a result of there only being one denomination?

 

[Vonsalza]

Ok, so with the concept that all Christianity should only be Roman Catholic, and no other, then the world would believe that God sent Jesus into the world? We are constantly reminded that the CC was the only church in existence for some 1500 years. There was no Protestantism (at least not enough to confuse the world observing Christianity). So does history bear out the fact that because there was only “one” during that time frame that it was spiritual utopia? Does history show that the world marveled and believed that God sent Jesus into the world as a result of there only being one denomination?

I don’t think that’s a fair standard.

Does the world “marvel” at your denomination?

 

[Vonsalza]

Actually, Scripture does say something about denominations. Jesus prayed that His followers be one, not many.

John 17:19-23

And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and cloved them even as you loved me.

Bravo

 

[James248]

How do we know these are Scriptures?

MJ

Seriously?

Matthew 16 Jesus makes Peter the foundation of the Church and gives him the keys to the Kingdom

Luke 22 Jesus tells Peter that He’s prayed for him specifically and that he will strengthen his brothers once he has turned back.

John 21 Jesus tells Peter to feed and govern His sheep.

 

[Vonsalza]

Seriously?

Matthew 16 Jesus makes Peter the foundation of the Church and gives him the keys to the Kingdom

Luke 22 Jesus tells Peter that He’s prayed for him specifically and that he will strengthen his brothers once he has turned back.

John 21 Jesus tells Peter to feed and govern His sheep.

I took it as an allusion to the Catholic Church’s undeniable and critical role in establishing what even constituted Christian scripture. Did I misinterpret?

 

[De_Maria]

Ok, so with the concept that all Christianity should only be Roman Catholic, and no other, then the world would believe that God sent Jesus into the world?

Yes.

We are constantly reminded that the CC was the only church in existence for some 1500 years.

Correct.

There was no Protestantism (at least not enough to confuse the world observing Christianity). So does history bear out the fact that because there was only “one” during that time frame that it was spiritual utopia?

Who said that it was?

Does history show that the world marveled and believed that God sent Jesus into the world as a result of there only being one denomination?

History shows that the one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic church converted almost the entire world. Where has any Protestant gone and the Catholic Church was not already established there?

 

[James248]

I took it as an allusion to the Catholic Church’s undeniable and critical role in establishing what even constituted Christian scripture. Did I misinterpret?

Itwin said that Scripture doesn’t mention an infallible Pope. I used these passages to counter his argument.

 

[Debbie_Kono]

Itwin said that Scripture doesn’t mention an infallible Pope. I used these passages to counter his argument.

Does not OT Scripture count? Numbers 12, 14 and 16 show what happened to the people who went against Moses.

 

[MartinJordan]

Seriously?

Matthew 16 Jesus makes Peter the foundation of the Church and gives him the keys to the Kingdom

Luke 22 Jesus tells Peter that He’s prayed for him specifically and that he will strengthen his brothers once he has turned back.

John 21 Jesus tells Peter to feed and govern His sheep.

Exactly. Now you’ll need to have this answered by Itwin. But how does he know these are indeed Scriptures? That’s why I was putting it like that.

Btw you missed John 1. On the third day (like Genesis when the land appeared out of the waters ie Rock) Jesus names Simon “Peter” ie Rock.

And much more where that came from.

MJ