If the Qu'ran is really is the word of god w/ NO intermediates, then...

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can I assume that the Arabic in the Qu’ran is extremely Archaic? I ask this, because just as translating the Qu’ran into any other language is frowned upon, seeing as certain verses cannot accurately be rendered in a different language, to update the language would have the same effect. As a result we can either assume that 1) the Arabic was never updated and thus is as like modern Arabic as Anglo-saxon is to English or 2) the Islamic claim that the Qu’ran is the word of god with no tampering is null due to the progressive translation of the Qu’ran into a more modern form of Arabic.

Catholig
 
There are words in the Koran that have no meaning.

And, there’s words in the Koran that show Muhammed speaking in first person - when the Koran’s supposed to be only from their god.
 
How can there be words that have no meaning? So what are they, then, just noise? just curious…
 
How can there be words that have no meaning? So what are they, then, just noise? just curious…
They’re supposed to be ‘signs’ of divine inspiration.

Alif Lam Ra- Suras 10, 11, 12, 14, 15.
Alif Lam Mim- Suras 2, 3, 29, 30, 31, 32.
Alif Lam Mim Ra- Sura 13.
Alif Lam Mim Sad- Sura 7.
Ha Mim- Suras 40, 41, 43, 44, 45, 46.
Ha Mim 'Ain Sin Qaf- Sura 42.
Sad- Sura 38.
Ta Sin- Sura 27.
Ta Sin Mim- Suras 26, 28.
Ta Ha- Sura 20.
Qaf- Sura 50.
Ka Ha Ya 'Ain Sad- Sura 19.
Nun- Sura 68.
Ya Sin- Sura 36.
List found here
 
How can there be words that have no meaning? So what are they, then, just noise? just curious…
Hi

You are right, there cannot be, and there are no words in Quran which have no meaning, in fact they have more than one meaning.For a note on such words please access:
English w/ 5 Vol. Commentary
and you would get the meaning.

Thanks
 
How can there be words that have no meaning? So what are they, then, just noise? just curious…
There is a theory that 20% of the koran was actually composed of aramaic which was transcribed using arabic symbols. This aramaic is supposedly from a heretical syriac text (or liturgy) that was floating around at the time. This 20% is unintelligible to even islamic scholars and that is why there is so much commentary on the koran and why muslims say it cannot be translated into languages other than arabic. An interesting book on the subject is below. The author explains some possible definitions of the “unknown” and known words. For example the 72 virgins could be translated as 72 white grapes. I bet some jihadis will be surprised:D

The author works under a pseudonym becasue of threats on his life. Gee I wonder who would want to supress his work and threaten his life…:rolleyes:

The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran: A Contribution to the Decoding of the Language of the Koran English Edition of 2007 (Die syro-aramäische Lesart des Koran: Ein Beitrag zur Entschlüsselung der Koransprache (2000) is a book by German philologist and professor of ancient Semitic and Arabic languages Christoph Luxenberg[1].

 
For those who are charging that Muslims are purposefully being difficult and evasive when saying that the Qur’an just cannot be translated into another language without losing much of it’s true meaning, here then is a short illustration of the inimitable eloquence of the Qur’an that makes it really quite impossible to accurately translate into another language:

An Example of Eloquence in the Qur’an: The Preposition ‘of’ in Verse 42:43

Source: “The Miracles of the Qur’an” Shaykh M Mitwalli Al-Sharawi.

The language of the Qur’an is unsurpassed in its accuracy of meaning and expression. Each letter and word has its place while the language is free from fault. These unique features are found manifested in the use of one single letter or a preposition, as is demonstrated in the following verses:

**Ya bunayya aqimi alssalata wa/mur bialmaAAroofi wainha AAani almunkari waisbir AAala ma asabaka inna thalika min AAazmi al-omoori

“…and bear patiently that which befalls you; surely these acts require courage; ”… (Qur’an 31:17)**

Walaman sabara waghafara inna thalika lamin AAazmi al-omoori

“And verily whoso is patient and forgiveth - lo! that, verily is (of) the steadfast heart of things.”… (Qur’an 42:43)

In the second verse the preposition “of” (LAMIN) may pass unnoticed or be taken as an emphatic synonym. But this is not so, because every letter or word in the language of the Qur’an is selected with the utmost care to convey one intrinsic meaning and definite purpose.

There is no such thing as synonymity in the Qur’an. Each letter and word has its own fixed meaning which no other word can express as accurately, irrespective of their seeming similarity. If we consider thoughtfully the meticulous selectivity of the words in the above verses and their underlying meaning, we soon come to realize that there are two kinds of patience.

In the first kind there is no direct adversary or person responsible for hardship or misfortune; for example a brick falling from a building under construction onto the head of an unsuspecting pedestrian, or the collapse of a newly-built house over peacefully sleeping tenants. In all incidents and mishaps of this nature no individual bears the responsibility for the victim’s misfortune. It is therefore easy for the unfortunate man to restrain his anger and accept his misfortune as an act of Allah. This kind of patience does not require a great deal of energy and can be easily achieved.

But patience which is “ verily of the steadfast heart of things “ is that which involves an antagonist against whom a victim has the freedom to retaliate and avenge himself, but prefers to suppress his anger and vengeful tendencies and forgive him. This kind of patience is deemed by Allah to be worthier than the first, because in this kind the aggrieved is dominated by his instinctive anger and feelings of injustice, and has to exercise a great deal of self-restraint. He is restrained by his fear of Allah, and refrains from responding to evil with evil. In the above verses, Allah defines the merits of the two types of patience and their corresponding heavenly rewards. He also describes the human responses of retaliation that ought to be observed in each case by the faithful.

Thus, in the first case they are commanded to accept what befalls them with humility and resignation to His will. In the second they are commanded to be forgiving and to maintain their faith in Allah’s justice.

The preposition ‘of’ has obviously been used to accentuate the distinction between the kind of patience in which forgiveness is not a necessity, and that in which forgiveness represents a test of endurance of injustice and of the believer’s trust in Allah’s providence and will. This shows how a single letter or preposition can bear such dept of meaning and discriminating power in the language of the Qur’an.

The above example clearly demonstrates just how very difficult it is to accurately translate even one short verse of the Qur’an involving the use of just a single preposition ‘of’ within it, such is the supreme eloquence of the language used in the Qur’an.

As we can all imagine, it is therefore simply not possible to translate the over 6,000 verses of the entire Qur’an into another language without losing much of the accuracy of their true meaning.
 
For those who are charging that Muslims are purposefully being difficult and evasive when saying that the Qur’an just cannot be translated into another language without losing much of it’s true meaning,

Thus, in the first case they are commanded to accept what befalls them with humility and resignation to His will. In the second they are commanded to be forgiving and to maintain their faith in Allah’s justice.

The above example clearly demonstrates just how very difficult it is to accurately translate even one short verse of the Qur’an involving the use of just a single preposition ‘of’ within it, such is the supreme eloquence of the language used in the Qur’an.

As we can all imagine, it is therefore simply not possible to translate the over 6,000 verses of the entire Qur’an into another language without losing much of the accuracy of their true meaning.
hmmmm…then how come CAIR and the government of Saudi Arabia distribute free korans in multiple languages. If these are not valid aren’t they spreading misinformation about islam?:confused:

There are specific meanings to certain words in the Bible but that is what translators are for to convey those meanings in the translated text or by footnotes. The problem that you pose above is no more difficult than what any translator of the Bible (or any ancient text) would face.

Your statement indicates a certain supremacy nad perfection of the Arabic language. I would imagine linguists would disagree.

God bless!
 
hmmmm…then how come CAIR and the government of Saudi Arabia distribute free korans in multiple languages. If these are not valid aren’t they spreading misinformation about islam?:confused:
Even if the translations of the Qur’an are say 70, 80 or 90% accurate, it is still very much better to read these translations than not referring to the Qur’an at all.
There are specific meanings to certain words in the Bible but that is what translators are for to convey those meanings in the translated text or by footnotes. The problem that you pose above is no more difficult than what any translator of the Bible (or any ancient text) would face.
Your statement indicates a certain supremacy and perfection of the Arabic language. I would imagine linguists would disagree.
God bless!
The Qur’an sets a challenge for people like these linguists to produce a chapter like it and for the past 1400 years, this challenge has not been met.

The following is an excerpt from an article:

The Arabic language and Arab speech are divided into two branches. One of them is rhymed poetry. It is a speech with metre and rhyme, which means every line of it ends upon a definite letter, which is called the ‘rhyme’. This rhymed poetry is again divided into metres or what is called as al-Bihar, literally meaning ‘The Seas’. This is so called because of the way the poetry moves according to the rhythmic patterns. There are sixteen al-Bihar viz; at-Tawil, al-Bassit, al-Wafir, al-Kamil, ar-Rajs, al-Khafif, al-Hazaj, al-Muttakarib, al-Munsarih, al-Muktatab, al-Muktadarak, al-Madid, al-Mujtath, al-Ramel, al-Khabab and as-Saria’. Each one rhymes differently.

The other branch of Arabic speech is prose, that is non-metrical speech. The prose may be a rhymed prose. Rhymed prose consists of cola ending on the same rhyme throughout, or of sentences rhymed in pairs. This is called “rhymed prose” or sajc. Prose may also be straight prose (mursal). In straight prose, the speech goes on and is not divided in cola, but is continued straight through without any divisions, either of rhyme or of anything else. Prose is employed in sermons and prayers and in speeches intended to encourage or frighten the masses.

So, the challenge is to produce in Arabic, three lines, that do not fall into one of these sixteen al-Bihar, that is not rhyming prose, nor like the speech of soothsayers, and not normal speech, that it should contain at least a comprehensible meaning and rhetoric, i.e. not gobbledygook.

It is interesting to note that all of the known pre-Islam and post-Islamic poetry falls in the above sixteen metres or al-Bihar. Indeed the pagans of Mecca repeatedly accuse Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) of being a forger, a soothsayer etc. The Arabs who were at the pinnacle of their poetry and prose during the time of revelation of the Qur’an could not even produce the smallest surah of its like. The Qur’an’s form did not fit into any of the above mentioned categories. It was this that made the Qur’an inimitable, and left the pagan Arabs at a loss as to how they might combat it.

And as the Qur’an itself says:
**
And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true. But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith. **(Qur’an 2:23-24)
 
The Qur’an sets a challenge for people like these linguists to produce a chapter like it and for the past 1400 years, this challenge has not been met.
Here we go again! Guess who the judges of this challange are? Yep, you guessed it! Those who have made up their simple little minds that it can not be met. There is a whole thread on this little gem of muslim logic if you want to get a good laugh.
 
Here we go again! Guess who the judges of this challange are? Yep, you guessed it! Those who have made up their simple little minds that it can not be met. There is a whole thread on this little gem of muslim logic if you want to get a good laugh.
Like I have mentioned in the other thread, the only people who are qualified to judge whether or not this challenge has been met are those who are totally sincere in their desire to seek the Truth.

If you yourself sincerely believe that this challenge has been met, then more power to you.
 
Even if the translations of the Qur’an are say 70, 80 or 90% accurate, it is still very much better to read these translations than not referring to the Qur’an at all.
I hope the translations tell which 10%,20% or 30% is in accurate. Perhaps this is why islam is given a bad rap. We would not want to be misled into believing that islam is a violent religion that exhorts its followers to subjugate (violently if necessary) people of other faiths until islam is the onlf faith.😃
 
Like I have mentioned in the other thread, the only people who are qualified to judge whether or not this challenge has been met are those who are totally sincere in their desire to seek the Truth.

If you yourself sincerely believe that this challenge has been met, then more power to you.
I have been sincere in my desire to seek the truth as have many of us on this forum. But we both know that you (or any other Muslim) do not consider anyone other than a devout Muslim to be truly “sincere in their desire to seek the truth” (“truth” read as Islam) and thus qualified to judge and they will deem the challange unmet.
 
They’re supposed to be ‘signs’ of divine inspiration.

Alif Lam Ra- Suras 10, 11, 12, 14, 15.
Alif Lam Mim- Suras 2, 3, 29, 30, 31, 32.
Alif Lam Mim Ra- Sura 13.
Alif Lam Mim Sad- Sura 7.
Ha Mim- Suras 40, 41, 43, 44, 45, 46.
Ha Mim 'Ain Sin Qaf- Sura 42.
Sad- Sura 38.
Ta Sin- Sura 27.
Ta Sin Mim- Suras 26, 28.
Ta Ha- Sura 20.
Qaf- Sura 50.
Ka Ha Ya 'Ain Sad- Sura 19.
Nun- Sura 68.
Ya Sin- Sura 36.
List found here
They’re not words with no meaning. They’re not even words they’re just individual letters of the Arabic alphabet that preface some Suras of the Qur’an; for example Alif = A, Laam = L and Raa = R.

There are numerous theories about why they are there, the one I lead towards is that they’re a challenge. They show the Qur’an is made of normal letters, but can anyone produce any work like it? That’s why every Sura that begins with some letters starts with a declaration of the Qur’an (such as Al-Baqarah: A, L, M. This is the book…)
 
Hi

There are no words in Quran which have no meaning, in fact they have more than one meaning.For a note on such words please access:
alislam.org/
English w/ 5 Vol. Commentary

and you would get the meaning.

Anybody interested?

Thanks
 
Like I have mentioned in the other thread, the only people who are qualified to judge whether or not this challenge has been met are those who are totally sincere in their desire to seek the Truth.

If you yourself sincerely believe that this challenge has been met, then more power to you.
So only those who believe it is true are qualified to judge if it’s true! :confused: :confused: 😃 😃 😃
 
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