If the Reformers only knew...

[JRKH]

Did or could the reformers have known the flood of fractures their movement would entail?
If Luther and others involved in the Protestant reformation could have foreseen the number of “denominations” this movement would result in, would they have gone ahead?
Likewise, if the Church saw the same thing would they maybe have tried to find a better solution than excommunication?

It strikes me that, regardless of the pro’s and con’s of the dissention, and of the errors made on both sides, if the pricipal parties could have known the depth, breadth. extent of the multiplication of splits they were about to unleash they would have worked more fully to avert the catastrophe.

Comments?

Peace
James

 

[Righteousone]

God knew, it’s all in the plan of believing that the Catholic church is the true church. God gave us choices and that is why it is so difficult for non-Catholics to convert to the one true religion of Christ. God knew all of this, it’s just a test…

 

[Contarini]

Did or could the reformers have known the flood of fractures their movement would entail?
If Luther and others involved in the Protestant reformation could have foreseen the number of “denominations” this movement would result in, would they have gone ahead?
Likewise, if the Church saw the same thing would they maybe have tried to find a better solution than excommunication?

It strikes me that, regardless of the pro’s and con’s of the dissention, and of the errors made on both sides, if the pricipal parties could have known the depth, breadth. extent of the multiplication of splits they were about to unleash they would have worked more fully to avert the catastrophe.

Comments?

Peace
James

I think Luther was crazy/singleminded enough that he would have gone ahead. I’m not so sure about some of the more moderate, level-headed Reformers such as Melanchthon and Bucer. Even from what they could see in their own day, they were dismayed and tried to take steps to limit the damage and work for unity. (Luther was dismayed too, but he saw all the bad results of the Reformation as signs of the Last Days and of Satan’s cleverness.)

I think that even more important than the bad results of the Reformation would be the fact that the Catholic Church has proven itself not to be apostate. I think that a reading of Pope Benedict’s writings might do more to show the Reformers (if they could travel through time) that they were wrong than even the divisions and other evils of modern Protestantism.

But perhaps this is wishful thinking.

Edwin

 

[sterryfamily]

All mankind is to blame. But the resulting confusion and relativism is clearly the work of the devil.

 

[Angainor]

If the Pope only knew the fractures that would ensue if he were to decree Luther excommunicated for proclaiming the gospel… would he have gone ahead?

 

[JMBNH]

Luther knew. He didn’t exactly try hard to attain unity with Zwingli (though understandably as Zwingli denied the Real Presence and Luther believed in it, albeit not fully and thought the Eucharist was Jesus mixed with bread and wine or something weird like that), and certainly not the Anabaptists. So there was disunity from the very start

 

[rr1213]

I think that a reading of Pope Benedict’s writings might do more to show the Reformers (if they could travel through time) that they were wrong than even the divisions and other evils of modern Protestantism.

Is it your belief that the Reformers were wrong in everything they taught or only in dividing the Church?

 

[SIA]

Did or could the reformers have known the flood of fractures their movement would entail?
If Luther and others involved in the Protestant reformation could have foreseen the number of “denominations” this movement would result in, would they have gone ahead?
Likewise, if the Church saw the same thing would they maybe have tried to find a better solution than excommunication?

It strikes me that, regardless of the pro’s and con’s of the dissention, and of the errors made on both sides, if the pricipal parties could have known the depth, breadth. extent of the multiplication of splits they were about to unleash they would have worked more fully to avert the catastrophe.

Comments?

Peace
James

I think you have a very distorted view of the so called vast number of denominations that are out there. First of all, a huge majority of those denominations formed because of minor disciplinary infractions and such in their churches and not over interpretation of Scripture. If you take an hinest look at all Catholics, they each share vastly different beliefs many times in contrast with the teachings of the church. Many profess to not believe in the Real Presence, the Immaculate Conception and even use contraception. For as many Protestants that are out there, there are that many opinions of the truth amongst Catholics.

Secondly, Luther never set out to form a new church. I think there is plenty of history to back that up.

 

[estesbob]

If the Pope only knew the fractures that would ensue if he were to decree Luther excommunicated for proclaiming the gospel… would he have gone ahead?

If God only knew of fractures he would cause by allowing a false gospel to be preached for 1500 years would he have allowed his sin to die on the cross.

Of course the above statement is absurd, as is yours…

 

[estesbob]

Is it your belief that the Reformers were wrong in everything they taught or only in dividing the Church?

Anything they thought which was in contradiction with the One True Church was most certainly false. It cannot be any other way or we have to assume that God is the author of chaos.

 

[justinthemartyr]

Where is the quote from Luther where he stated that he was sad, in that there were as many sects(divisions) as their were heads in the church now?

 

[rr1213]

Anything they thought which was in contradiction with the One True Church was most certainly false. It cannot be any other way or we have to assume that God is the author of chaos.

Not necessarily. The Church could have been wrong with respect to discipline if not doctrine… or there could be corruptions as to practice, such as the infamous indulgences.

 

[estesbob]

I think you have a very distorted view of the so called vast number of denominations that are out there. First of all, a huge majority of those denominations formed because of minor disciplinary infractions and such in their churches and not over interpretation of Scripture. If you take an hinest look at all Catholics, they each share vastly different beliefs many times in contrast with the teachings of the church. Many profess to not believe in the Real Presence, the Immaculate Conception and even use contraception. For as many Protestants that are out there, there are that many opinions of the truth amongst Catholics.

Secondly, Luther never set out to form a new church. I think there is plenty of history to back that up.

Two denominations is one too many. Having said that one simply cannot paper over the vast differences between various denominations. For instance how could you reconcile the Baptists with the Seventh-day Adventists or the Mormons with the Lutherans?

 

[estesbob]

Not necessarily. The Church could have been wrong with respect to discipline if not doctrine… or there could be corruptions as to practice, such as the infamous indulgences.

The Church was not wrong. Individuals representing themselves as speaking for the church were wrong. And you know that the complaints about abuses quickly morphed into legions of previously unheard of doctrines.

 

[rr1213]

The Church was not wrong. Individuals representing themselves as speaking for the church were wrong. And you know that the complaints about abuses quickly morphed into legions of previously unheard of doctrines.

I don’t buy this concept that when leaders and members of a denomination (Catholic, Orthdox, Anglican, whatever) act badly that somehow this does not constitute that denomination acting badly. On one level I agree, on another more immediate level it is no more than a circumvention. As an example, if every priest and bishop in Zamboniniacha is selling indulgencies why shouldn’t I be upset about that? And why shouldn’t the laity see this as the Church acting badly? It’s their parish priest, their bishop…

 

[estesbob]

I don’t buy this concept that when leaders and members of a denomination (Catholic, Orthdox, Anglican, whatever) act badly that somehow this does not constitute that denomination acting badly. On one level I agree, on another more immediate level it is no more than a circumvention. As an example, if every priest and bishop in Zamboniniacha is selling indulgencies why shouldn’t I be upset about that? And why shouldn’t the laity see this as the Church acting badly? It’s their parish priest, their bishop…

You should be upset. What should not to do is run off and start your own Church and invent doctrines that when embraced put people’s immortal souls in danger

 

[JRKH]

While I won’t disagree with you on my limited understanding of the reformation, I feel I do need to clarify a couple of things.

I think you have a very distorted view of the so called vast number of denominations that are out there.

I did not use the term “vast”. However you must admit that there are probably more variations on the “Protestant theme” than any of the origional leaders expected.

First of all, a huge majority of those denominations formed because of minor disciplinary infractions and such in their churches and not over interpretation of Scripture.

That may well be, but a denominational split is still a split isn’t it?

If you take an hinest look at all Catholics, they each share vastly different beliefs many times in contrast with the teachings of the church. Many profess to not believe in the Real Presence, the Immaculate Conception and even use contraception. For as many Protestants that are out there, there are that many opinions of the truth amongst Catholics.

Yes Catholics are a pesky bunch.

Secondly, Luther never set out to form a new church. I think there is plenty of history to back that up.

I believe that to be true.
In fact there was prabably more politics than theology about the reformation. Which makes me all the more sad that we, as Christians, can’t get back together. So much water under the bridge and so many walls built. It’s a shame.

Peace
James

 

[SIA]

While I won’t disagree with you on my limited understanding of the reformation, I feel I do need to clarify a couple of things.

I did not use the term “vast”. However you must admit that there are probably more variations on the “Protestant theme” than any of the origional leaders expected.

That may well be, but a denominational split is still a split isn’t it?

Yes Catholics are a pesky bunch.

I believe that to be true.
In fact there was prabably more politics than theology about the reformation. Which makes me all the more sad that we, as Christians, can’t get back together. So much water under the bridge and so many walls built. It’s a shame.

Peace
James

Your responses were fair and not riddled with insults and getchabacks. Thanks for that.

 

[JRKH]

Your responses were fair and not riddled with insults and getchabacks. Thanks for that.

You’re welcome.
I generally try to avoid those kinds of things. I annoys me no end when I see people get into that kind of tit-for-tat garbage.
We’re all here to try to learn (or at least most of us)

James

 

[SIA]

You’re welcome.
I generally try to avoid those kinds of things. I annoys me no end when I see people get into that kind of tit-for-tat garbage.
We’re all here to try to learn (or at least most of us)

James

Great attitude. My dad is Catholic and I am Anglican. He heads a men’s group for his church and as a Vestry member in my church, I am in our men’s group. We recently all got together and discussed the topic of the afterlife and Purgatory. As for the Catholics, they of course believe in it and for the most part, us Anglicans do not but nonetheless, a great discussion was had by all. The response everyone had on the discussion was very positive.