If the SSPX is reconciled, will all Latin Rite Traditionalists be under the SSPX?

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

gelsbern:

Or it could go,

“Fraternity of St. Peter, Institute of Christ the King… we are bringing back into the fold the group which caused you to come into existance…”

I am not sure that the Institue of Christ the King was formed by former members of the SSPX.

I also doubt that this would/could happen without some consent of the religious orders themselves as they are now covered by existing Canon Law. I highly doubt that these men would want to go back to the SSPX. More likely would be that the SSPX would be subsummed into one (or both) of these communities.

If that did happen though, it would be a very sad day. What a way to reward their faithfulness, to destory them and make them join with a group that has been very unfaithful.

 

[gelsbern]

I don’t think that they will be folding the different orders together. If there is a reconcilliation of some kind, I think that the SSPX will be just another order, just as the FSSP is today.

 

[Walking_Home]

gelsbern:

I don’t think that they will be folding the different orders together. If there is a reconcilliation of some kind, I think that the SSPX will be just another order, just as the FSSP is today.

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You are probably right. If reconcilliation were to occur, the SSPX would become another order and would not be merged with the existing traditional orders.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

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You are probably right. If reconcilliation were to occur, the SSPX would become another order and would not be merged with the existing traditional orders.

And if this is true, then like every other religious order they would be bound by the local bishops and not be able to offer Masses without the consent of the bishop.

 

[gelsbern]

I am not sure about that. If say the Carmelite fathers had a church in an area, I don’t think they need permission from the diocese bishop to do Mass because they have their own bishop, and all bishops are equal. At any rate it’s pure speculation at this point. All we can do is watch, wait, and pray.

 

[Walking_Home]

ByzCath:

And if this is true, then like every other religious order they would be bound by the local bishops and not be able to offer Masses without the consent of the bishop.

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I guess all we can do is speculate. IF an agreement between Rome and the SSPX does occur, then Rome will speak as to how the SSPX is to be integrated into the Church.

 

[GoLatin]

I certainly hope that the other loyal traditional orders will be able to continue to exist.

And I also hope that a reconclied SSPX will remain loyal!

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

gelsbern:

I am not sure about that. If say the Carmelite fathers had a church in an area, I don’t think they need permission from the diocese bishop to do Mass because they have their own bishop, and all bishops are equal. At any rate it’s pure speculation at this point. All we can do is watch, wait, and pray.

Actually, yes they do and I speak of this as a person in Carmelite formation. All parishes within a diocese are under the jurisdiction of the local bishop.

Religious orders do not tend to bishops. When a religious priest is raised to the episcopacy he is made a bishop of a diocese. The Carmelites (and all the other orders I know of) are set up in provinces with a provincial supperior over the province and a superior general in Rome.

So any Carmelite bishop is the bishop of a diocese, not of the Carmelites.

The pre-novitate is on the grounds of a high school and parish. The parish is under the local bishop but our formation house is not. Any Carmelite, or any other priest that the prior deems fit, may celebrate the Mass within our house but to do so in the parish the bishop must grant faculties. No religious order runs a praish ourside of the bishop. Now if it is a shrine or retreat house, then it may be outside of the diocese.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

gelsbern:

Or it could go,

“Fraternity of St. Peter, Institute of Christ the King… we are bringing back into the fold the group which caused you to come into existance…”

Now, Deacon. :tsktsk: You are surely familiar with the logical cause fallacy, “Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.”

I could just as easily argue that if the good Archbishop had accepted the '88 accord on Vatican terms, the Traditional Roman Rite would be even more widely available and traditional orders would be even more widespread, and even more fully integrated, within the Church.

 

[gelsbern]

Dr. Bombay:

Now, Deacon. :tsktsk: You are surely familiar with the logical cause fallacy, “Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.”

I could just as easily argue that if the good Archbishop had accepted the '88 accord on Vatican terms, the Traditional Roman Rite would be even more widely available and traditional orders would be even more widespread, and even more fully integrated, within the Church.

Hehehe, I know, but I had to post it. Call it playing devils advocate. :getholy: I’m allowed to once in a while.

 

[otm]

gelsbern:

I am not sure about that. If say the Carmelite fathers had a church in an area, I don’t think they need permission from the diocese bishop to do Mass because they have their own bishop, and all bishops are equal. At any rate it’s pure speculation at this point. All we can do is watch, wait, and pray.

All bishops may be equal, but the jurisdiction of all bishops is by no means equal.

 

[Kerrie7707]

The reconcilliation between the SSPX and the novus ordo will happen which is clear due to the meeting of Bishop Fillet and Benedict XVI. This does not in any way mean that all traditional Catholics will subject to the SSPX though. One who attends the mass of an SSPX priest is not a member of SSPX, only the priest are therefore subject the SSPX. The entire SSPX is still under Rome and always has been. I attend this mass and know many of it’s priest, none of them have any intentions to breakaway from the papal state. The fact is the SSPX believes the changes that the novus ordo have made are wrong and should never have happened. Really they did not change the mass they made a new order. The SSPX only want to insure the suvival of the trinate mass.
Love,
Kerrie

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Since the original question has already been answered…and answered…how about some different food for thought.

One result of the original schism (Campos) has already been reconciled, with its own bishop retaining a good deal of authority (although I don’t think it’s full ordinary jurisdiction, is it?) over its faithful. The SSPX, if reconciled, would contain four more bishops, who would presumably remain at the service of the society. Meanwhile, the FSSP still has to ‘pass the hat’ among traditionally-minded bishops for their services. Do you think a reconciliation of the SSPX will see requests from the faithful sons of the Church for bishops of THEIR own? (as I think of it now, one possibility might be that Rome would just say - use the SSPXers, they ordained a handful of you, anyway)

 

[Irish_Apologist]

kleary:

Not us. My parish is under the Diocese of Camden. We are very unique as we are the only fully fledged “traditionalist” Latin Mass parish staffed by a Diocese.

100 percent TLM every day.

Ken

THAT would truly be wonderful!I
I’m a Traditional Catholic who attends the weekly Solemn High Mass but, do be able to help serve at a daily low Mass would be great!!!

 

[tradconvert]

The SSPX would not of course subsume all other traditional latin mass chapels/churches/communities. But as one who attends only the traditional latin mass (usually at an SSPX chapel) I would love to see means by which the SSPX’s somewhat complicated status is clarified by the Holy Father. This is not only so there would be much wider practice and availability of the traditional mass, but importantly so there can with full papal authority be many more full traditional parishes which have both daily traditional latin masses and the full life of a traditional catholic parish such as the traditional devotions and customs. This would surely help bring back so many lost souls to Church and I believe restore true catholicity to the Church - ie make it stand out like a beacon as the one true church distinct form all the mannade non-catholic sects.

Relating to my last point but as an aside - it was by the way no mistake that our forebears who builts the magnificent churches - or just simply the local parish churches regularly - built their churches on the highest point in the towns and cities and with tall spires - to ensure that the one true church was well known to ALL the people town.

 

[Sean_O_L]

tradconvert wrote:

This would surely help bring back so many lost souls to Church and I believe restore true catholicity to the Church

There is NO loss of “true Catholicity”!!!

Here are a few Dogmas of the Catholic Church:

The Divine Origin of the Church

The Church is the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ. (Sent. certa.)

The Church was founded by the God-Man Jesus Christ. (De fide.)

The Constitution of the Church

Christ founded the Church in order to continue His work of redemption for all time. (De fide.)

The Church is a perfect society. (Sent. certa.)

Christ appointed the Apostle Peter to be the first of all the Apostles and to be the visible head of the whole Church, by appointing him immediately and personally to the primacy of jurisdiction. (De fide.)

According to Christ’s ordinance, Peter is to have successors in his Primacy over the whole Church and for all time. (De fide.)

The successors of Peter in the Primacy are the bishops of Rome. (De fide.)

The Pope possesses full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, not merely in matters of faith and morals, but also in Church discipline and in the government of the Church. (De fide.)

The Internal Constitution of the Church

Christ founded the Church. (De fide.)

Christ is the Head of the Church. (De fide.)

Our Redeemer Himself conserves with divine power **the society founded by Him, the Church. **(Pius XII)

Christ is the Divine Redeemer of His Body, the Church. (Pius XII.)

The Holy Ghost is the Soul of the Church. (Sent. communis.)

The Properties or Essential Attributes of the Church

The Church is indefectible, that is, she remains and will remain the Institution of

Salvation, founded by Christ, until the end of the world. (Sent. certa.)

The Church founded by Christ is an external visible commonwealth. (Sent. certa.)

The Church founded by Christ is unique and one. (De fide.)

The Church founded by Christ is holy. (De fide.)

The Church founded by Christ is catholic. (De fide.)

The Church founded by Christ is apostolic. (De fide.)

While the “hill-tops” is an good emotional argument - it is well to remember that the early Church resided in the catacombes.