If there apostolic succession why is it not mentioned in the scriptures?

[NotWorthy]

Do we agree though that Timothy was not an apostle?

Doesn’t Paul refer to others (maybe Tim, or maybe Barnabus) as apostles. I seem to have thought there were at least two others called Apostles, but differentiated from “The Twelve”.

I’ll have to check it out.

Edited: Ok, I found it in Acts chapter 14, verse 14:

The apostles Barnabas and Paul tore their garments when they heard this and rushed out into the crowd, shouting,

 

[Erich]

Timothy, Barnabus, Apollos, and Titus (see post #76 above)

 

[justasking4]

What I don’t understand about the no apostolioc succession crowd is this: Why would Jesus want to leave His church with no one in authority?

How could Jesus be that dumb?

Look at Acts 15. This is the first coucil of the church. Is there one pope here that decides? Is it Peter or someone else?

 

[NotWorthy]

Look at Acts 15. This is the first coucil of the church. Is there one pope here that decides? Is it Peter or someone else?

Well, did Peter say, “Guys, I don’t think the Gentiles should be yoked with the Law, what do you say, should we give these Gentiles a break”?

What, do you think James was acting papal?

 

[mercygate]

i thought apostolic sucession was also about the office itself. If its about handing down the “teaching” of the apostles then you are going to have say that much of the marian doctrines are not apostolic since the apostles never taught such things about her.

You cannot demonstrate that the Marian dogmas were utterly unknown to the Apostles. And,unlike the noun “Apostle” the adjective “Apostolic” does not apply exclusively to the NT eyewitnesses. The adjective is used to denote the authority that comes from being in the historic and doctrinal line of the apostles. The Eleven received the promise that the Holy Spirit would “guide you into all the truth.” They received the promise that Christ would be “with you all days.” Therefore, the apostolic Churches – those with the historical link and the doctrinal continuity back to those men – believe that the legitimate development of doctrine is not only necessary but protected.

For example, as a Christian, you believe in the Holy Trinity. Where in the New Testament do you see the clear delineation of that teaching, as Christians understand it? You do not because it is not there. The Church, guided by the Holy Spirit into the truth developed the doctrine which appears as scattered seed throughout Scripture.

Same holds for the Marian dogmas. In fact, by definition, a dogma does NOT specifically appear in Scripture, laid out declaratively. A dogma is a teaching that logically arises from points of faith and whose promulgation serves to protect other significant doctrines.

Do we agree though that Timothy was not an apostle?

He is honored as an Apostle although, like Barnabas, who is also named an Apostle, he is not one of the 12. My reading of the New Testament gives the impression that the eyewitness factor is important but that we call “Apostles” those in the first tier of “those sent.” Frankly, I believe the terminology was not all that tight during the Apostolic age. It is narrowed later on as distinctions in service are worked out according to the needs of the Church.

 

[mercygate]

Look at Acts 15. This is the first coucil of the church. Is there one pope here that decides? Is it Peter or someone else?

You are blending papal primacy into a discussion of apostolic succession.

Acts 15 is a council. Even assuming for a moment that papal primacy had been a full-blown doctrinal position at the time, it would have been strange for all these guys to get together just to listen to Peter – who wasn’t even the one who had the question. He does take the decisive role in articulating the decision, however, and James – captain of the home team – brings it to a conclusion.

 

[NotWorthy]

He is honored as an Apostle although, like Barnabas, who is also named an Apostle, he is not one of the 12. My reading of the New Testament gives the impression that the eyewitness factor is important but that we call “Apostles” those in the first tier of “those sent.” Frankly, I believe the terminology was not all that tight during the Apostolic age. It is narrowed later on as distinctions in service are worked out according to the needs of the Church.

I think the “Twelve” had a special significance during the Pentecost as the New Covenant Church was formed. This was the re-created Israel, which also had 12 judges standing in judgment of the 12 tribes.

So the “Twelve”, as Paul called them, had a special significance in the New Covenant Church.

 

[NotWorthy]

You are blending papal primacy into a discussion of apostolic succession.

Acts 15 is a council. Even assuming for a moment that papal primacy had been a full-blown doctrinal position at the time, it would have been strange for all these guys to get together just to listen to Peter – who wasn’t even the one who had the question. He does take the decisive role in articulating the decision, however, and James – captain of the home team – brings it to a conclusion.

Yes, I agree that this is an example of an Ecumenical Council (which Nicae would follow), but notice that Peter issues a Dogmatic Statement: Gentiles will not be shackled with Mosaic rules (paraphrasing).

While James issues a disciplinary statement: the Gentiles will follow four of the Noahide Rules. This rule was rescinded later on during Apostolic Times.

 

[Steve40]

You mean God can’t use sinful men to further His Will? Wow, good thing nobody told that to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Gideon, David, Solomon, etc., etc., etc.

God given authority to Imperfect humans is His Will. I am amazed that He allows me to be a father. In the same way He allows the Holy Father to be our father. Why does God delegate what is so important to imperfect humans? It is a mystery but both with myself as dad, and the Pope or Papa, Holy Father, God’s decrees and authority are true.

 

[Mannyfit75]

You know what I like about apostolic succession, is the fact that the Church is the oldest human institution in existence and someone placed their hands on someone else’s head going all the way back to Jesus. The Bible is one thing but touching the Hem of the Almighty is something else. Here it wasn’t just the Hem it is the Hand of our Lord upon them.

If you don’t believe the Physical touch of Jesus has the Power to come down through the ages in the passing of His Authority than even proof in the Bible won’t convince you that Jesus does it and He Wills it.

I like the fact that the Catholic Church is older than most Western nations. She is older than the US, older than France, Older than Britain, older than Germany.

 

[guanophore]

First time i have seen Peter associated with Antioch. What’ odd about Rome is that Paul in that epistle never mentions Peter but he does for many others.

Keep reading that Bible, justasking, you will find it!

Gal 2:11 11 But when Cephas came to Antioch…

Are you speaking about Paul’s epistle to the Romans?

If look at James in the Acts 15 where he has the final say at the first council, we don’t see any reference to him being the bishop of this church.

No, James was the Bishop of Jerusalem.

Did the all the churches believe that the men you mention above have the same authority as an apostle?

Yes. The Apostles ordained bishops by the laying on of hands, and they carried the Apostolic Authority in the cities where they were stationed.

 

[guanophore]

What do you mean when you use the word apostle?

“one who is sent”

Matt 10:2-5
2 The names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zeb’edee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananaean, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him. These twelve Jesus sent out…

Luke 6:12-13
13 And when it was day, he called his disciples, and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles;"

There are other apostles mentioned, and there is the “office” of apostle, but the Catholic Church holds that the office ended with the death of the last Apostle, and that the powers were passed to the bishops.

 

[guanophore]

Lets address Peter as the founder of Rome. Would you happen to know the year?

Peter and Paul both labored in the city of Rome, which is one of the reasons that it got it’s primacy. However, as the holder of the keys, Peter was considered the “ranking” apostle. Both were also martyrd there, but before that, spent at least three years (in the case of Peter) teaching the flock.

 

[guanophore]

That may be. Now go back to the passages metioned in I Timothy and see if Paul is passing on some kind of apostleship to Timothy. Look for also in the scriptures if Timothy is referred to as a apostle. If the answer is that Timothy is being “groomed” to be an apostle then you might have something. But if not, then this is not an example to be used in support of apostolic succession.

The Church does not teach that the “office” of apostle was passed on, as those offices were closed when they were vacated by the deaths of the Apostles. No, Paul is passing on the authority that was given to the apostles by Jesus. Timothy was being groomed as a bishop.

1 Tim 3:1-2
3:1 The saying is sure: If any one aspires to the office of bishop, he desires a noble task.

Titus 1:7-16
7 For a bishop, as God’s steward, must be blameless; he must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, 8 but hospitable, a lover of goodness, master of himself, upright, holy, and self-controlled; 9 he must hold firm to the sure word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to confute those who contradict it. 10 For there are many insubordinate men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially the circumcision party; 11 they must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for base gain what they have no right to teach. 12 One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 instead of giving heed to Jewish myths or to commands of men who reject the truth. 15 To the pure all things are pure, but to the corrupt and unbelieving nothing is pure; their very minds and consciences are corrupted. 16 They profess to know God, but they deny him by their deeds; they are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good deed.

Titus 2:1-2
2:1 But as for you, teach what befits sound doctrine. 2 Bid the older men be temperate, serious, sensible, sound in faith, in love, and in steadfastness.

Why would Paul be instructing the Bishop in how to lead, if it were not his task to control the insubordinate? The Bishops task was to keep order, and to teach sound doctrine, and keep the flock of God of whom he has been given charge. The authority to do these things came from a commissioning by the Apostles.

 

[NotWorthy]

Peter and Paul both labored in the city of Rome, which is one of the reasons that it got it’s primacy. However, as the holder of the keys, Peter was considered the “ranking” apostle. Both were also martyrd there, but before that, spent at least three years (in the case of Peter) teaching the flock.

Peter spent longer than that in Rome. Here’s something I came across the other day on Agape Bible Study:

Peter was in the great city known as “Roma” by her citizens, establishing that city as the hub of the Christian movement to conquer the world for Jesus Christ by spreading the Gospel message to every corner of the Roman Empire. ** Early Church historians record that Peter was 7 years in Antioch, Syria and 25 years in Rome**, capital of the Roman Empire. St. Peter and St. Paul were martyred on the same day circa 64-67AD in the pagan city that was destined to one day be called the Eternal city and home of the Universal Catholic Church.

I’ve never heard before the Peter and Paul were martyred on the same day. That’s probably one of the reasons that you never hear one named without the other during the Eucharistic Prayers at Mass.

 

[guanophore]

I think there might be some confusion with the word “succession” and “apostle” on these posts. We do see offices in the church and the qualifications speciifcally for them. Offices such as bishop and deacons. We don’t see any such office for an apostle though. An apostle was a one time and unique postition in the NT church that had requirements that are no longer possible to fulfill for example. We can see this in Acts 1:21-22. These are conditions that cannot be fulfilled today. If you want to use the term for bishop or deacon succession i don’t think there is much of a problem with that since the qualifications can be fulfilled in certain men. For an apostle though they cannot be.

No, I think we are all on the same page with this. When we speak of the Apostolic Succession, we are speaking of those persons appointed by the Apostles, invested with the same authority that Christ invested in the Apostles, and that authority being passed on through the laying on of hands to each succeeding generation. We see this was already the practice in the early church:

Early Church Fathers on Bishops, Priests and Deacons

“Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier… Our Apostles knew through Our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry.” (Pope St. Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, 42:4-5, 44:1-3 [80 A.D.])

“Be subject to the bishop and to one another, as Jesus Christ was subject to the Father, and the Apostles were subject to Christ and to the Father; so that there may be unity in both body and spirit” (St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Magnesians, A.D.110, [13,1])

“Take care to do all things in harmony with God, with the bishops presiding in the place of God and with the presbyters in the place of the council of the Apostles.” (St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Magnesians, A.D. 110, [6,1])

“Those, indeed, who belong to God and to Jesus Christ - they are with the bishop. Do not err, my brethren: if anyone follow a schismatic; he will not inherit the kingdom of God.” (St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Philadelphians, A.D. 110, [3,2])

“You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as you would the Apostles. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” (St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrnaeans, A.D. 110, [8,1])

“Indeed, when you submit to the bishop as you would to Jesus Christ, it is clear to me that you are living in the manner not in the manner of men but as Jesus Christ, who died for us, that through faith in His death you might escape dying. It is necessary, therefore, - and such is your practice, that you do nothing without the bishop, and that you be subject also to the presbytery, as to the Apostles of Jesus Christ our hope.” (St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Traillians, A.D. 110, [2,1])

“And of the elect, he was one indeed, the wonderful martyr Polycarp, who in our days was an apostolic and prophetic teacher, bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna. Every word which came forth from his mouth was fulfilled and will be fulfilled.” (Martyrdom of Polycarp 16:2, [155 A.D.])

“Although he [Paul] writes to the Corinthians and to the Thessalonians for their correction, nevertheless it is shown that there is one Church spread abroad though the whole world.” (Muratorian Fragment, [155 A.D.])

“Let us be careful, then, if we should be submissive to God, not to oppose the bishop.” (St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, A.D. 180, [5,3])

“And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the Apostles, and their successors to our own times: men who neither knew nor taught anything like these heretics rave about.” (St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, A.D. 180, [3,3,1])

 

[guanophore]

Why don’t you give me a specific example of an apostle passing on his authority and office to another in the NT so i can see if it is an “adequate” answer?

An example can be found in Acts 6:2-6

3 Therefore, brethren, pick out from among you seven men of good repute, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom **we may appoint **to this duty. 4 But we will devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word." 5 And what they said pleased the whole multitude, and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, and Proch’orus, and Nica’nor, and Ti’mon, and Par’menas, and Nicola’us, a proselyte of Antioch. 6 These they set before the apostles, and they prayed and laid their hands upon them.

This is the same procedure that is followed today. Candidates are identified by the community, they are presented to the authorities, prayers (and fasting and periods of preparation) are made, then hands laid upon them.

Another example is found in 1 Tim 4:14-15
14 Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophetic utterance when the council of elders laid their hands upon you.

2 Tim 1:5-7
6 Hence I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands; 7 for God did not give us a spirit of timidity but a spirit of power and love and self-control.

The gift is given at the time when the council of elders lays hands upon the candidate.

 

[fellowChristian]

justasking4 –

Acts 1:15

15 At this time Peter stood up in the midst of the brethren (a gathering of about one hundred and twenty persons was there together), and said,

16 "Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.

17 “For he** was counted among us and received his share in this ministry.” **

18 (Now this man acquired a field with the price of his wickedness, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his intestines gushed out.

19 And it became known to all who were living in Jerusalem; so that in their own language that field was called Hakeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)

20 "For it is written in the book of Psalms,
‘LET HIS HOMESTEAD BE MADE DESOLATE,
AND LET NO ONE DWELL IN IT’;
and,
** ‘LET ANOTHER MAN TAKE HIS OFFICE.’ **

21 "Therefore it is necessary **that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us–

22 beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us–one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection." **

23 So they put forward two men,** Joseph called Barsabbas **(who was also called Justus), and Matthias.

**24And they prayed **and said, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, **show which one of these two You have chosen

25 to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place." **

26And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to **Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles. **

The Church honors the Apostles on the following feast days:
Sts Peter and Paul-June 29th
St John-December 27th
St James-July 25th
St Andrew-November 30th
St Thomas-July 3rd
St Matthew-September 21st
Sts Philip and James the Less-May 3rd
St Bartholomew-August 24th
Sts Simon and Jude-October 28th
**St Matthias-May 14th (Judas’ replacement **)

Does that help?

 

[guanophore]

This post popped up on another thread where it was also off topic, so I am bringing it into this thread, as it seems more applicable here.

Define authority!
God never instituted men in the church to have absolute authority over other men. But the authority in the church was an authority to serve.

ALL AUTHORITY COMES FROM GOD
Authority is a God given privilege to carry out an action.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Ephesians 5:22-23 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

I think, in America, we have some serious deformations in our concepts of authority. Our heritage of freedom seems to have been corrupted in recent times with the rejection of the faith and morals upon which that freedom was founded. However, that is another topic.

I don’t think Jesus gave Peter and his successors “absolute authority” over men. They were given authority over the Church, the Bride of Christ, and the Teaching (doctrine) that Jesus entrusted to them, and commissioned them to preach. Those who refuse to submit to the Apostolic Authority take themselves further and further outside Christ’s Church (there is only One Church).

In your last quote from Acts 5, I want to point out that the “civil disobedience” exemplified here occurs in a unity among the Apostles. To rebel against the Apostolic Succession and excuse it by saying it is “better to obey God rather than man” is just an excuse. The division between the ways of men and the ways of God will always occur in unity with the authority that Christ has appointed over His Church.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;2718743]Keep reading that Bible, justasking, you will find it!

Gal 2:11 11 But when Cephas came to Antioch…

I thought someone said he founded the church there. If that is so, that is different that coming to Antioch.

Are you speaking about Paul’s epistle to the Romans?

Yes

No, James was the Bishop of Jerusalem.

Do you have chapter and verse?

Yes. The Apostles ordained bishops by the laying on of hands, and they carried the Apostolic Authority in the cities where they were stationed.

What i don’t see is the laying on of hands that makes one an apostle. Its not even mentioned in Acts 1:21-26