If There Is No Heaven Will You Still Love God?

[Nom_the_Wise]

Having just analyzed the Beatitudes somewhat, this question of “no heaven” becomes painfully obvious as not only a fallacy, but a heresy against the Beatitudes themselves, and thus Christ. (I know, I know, it’s a WHAT IF scenario).

I’m not sure how anyone thinks 1 Corinthians 15 is taken out of context. St. Paul, in that passage, is playing out this WHAT IF scenario. Allow me to add the direct implications of what Paul is saying:

12 5 But if Christ is preached as raised from the dead (and thus in Heaven), how can some among you say there is no resurrection of the dead? (when we will go to Heaven) 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead (and going to Heaven), then neither has Christ been raised (and gone to Heaven). 14 And if Christ has not been raised (and gone to Heaven), then empty (too) is our preaching; empty, too, your faith. 15 Then we are also false witnesses to God, because we testified against God that he raised Christ **(to Heaven), **whom he did not raise (to Heaven) if in fact the dead are not raised **(to Heaven). **16 For if the dead are not raised (Ibid), neither has Christ been raised, 17 and if Christ has not been raised, 6 your faith is vain; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished (and thus are not in Heaven). 19 If for this life only (and not going to Heaven) we have hoped in Christ, we are the most pitiable people of all.

I don’t know about you guys, but I count a grand total of 7 “ifs.”

 

[Nom_the_Wise]

It’s been a couple of days since I posted my scathing indictment of this thread (which I don’t take back) but since I haven’t been rebutted yet, I have the opportunity to clarify something else so that no one thinks that I’m playing “holier than thou.”

The OP’s question “If There Is No Heaven Will You Still Love God” had a specific intent, but it is heretically worded. It is designed to make us consider the parameters of our relationship with God. To love out of fear of punishment is not love at all which has been pointed out on several previous posts. But it is (can be) the first step to love. I fear losing the love that has been given to me. I want the love. I don’t want to do anything to jeopardize that love. Little children react out of fear of losing their parent’s love when they do something wrong and they are scolded. They want their parents’ love. We want Our Father’s love.

So there is a subtext to answering “no” to this question, and that subtext is “Your faith is immature if you can’t love God for who God is and not because you want a reward.” And it is an unfair imposition. The truth is that our reward in this life for believing in Christ is, in many cases, persecution. Many of us serve God as best we can and we live in a society that is overall hostile to our belief.
"Will you still love God if it means that you, too, will be crucified?"
"Will you still love God if it means being persecuted?" Those are better questions.
"Will you still love God if it means that you will lose your $100,000 per year job because your employers are unscrupulous?" These considerations cost us something now, in this life.

I lost my college teaching job (I was an adjunct, and thus NOT making $100,000) because I had the son of one of my college administrator’s in one of my classes. The student didn’t turn in work and was absent much of the time, but the college administrator tried to force me to pass him. I didn’t and I lost my job (and yes I did try to sue but lawyers fees would have been more than my settlement so I had to let it go). Many have told me that I was crazy, that my beliefs cost me my career. But my love of Christ wouldn’t let me do it. I knew the consequences for my actions. I made a hard choice and didn’t make a compromise. I have a son, though my wife has since left me, but even as a family man I couldn’t betray my God. Despite the resulting hardships I am working in security and God hasn’t abandoned me. I’m not patting myself on the back (who would) but I’ve known many that have made compromises about their faith only for money.

But to say “If There Is No Heaven Will You Still Love God?” is heretical not only because of the reasons I mentioned in previous posts, but also because I was able to make this decision not to give in to the temptation of money, career and prestige BECAUSE OF THE PROMISE OF HEAVEN. Otherwise, I was a fool to lose my career (I’m still trying to break back into teaching but I don’t have any references now). I so easily could have passed the kid. It would have taken one small pencil mark coloring the “A” circle on his scantron grade sheet. How easy is that? But because I believe God will hold up His end of our Covenant, our Testament, I am able to stay faithful. I did fear losing my job but I feared losing the love of God even more. Would any of you call me selfish? Immature? Does my faith need strengthening?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=325667
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5049070

These are links to my other threads if anyone wants to commiserate with me. I’m not saying that I haven’t been in anguish over what has happened, but in my pain I’ve turned to this Catholic community on-line. God is still with me, though I am not perfect and I worried that my previous posts on this thread might make some think that I’m bringing down “fire and brimstone” on you all. But this question wounded me somehow. **I *need ***there to be Heaven and thanks to Christ’s crucifixion and resurrection, which we remember today on Good Friday, there is one. Living a life in accordance to the Gospel is not in vain, and Heaven is our ultimate reward.

 

[Nom_the_Wise]

There. If you never read all of my posts all the way through, just read these two that I re-posted above. I couldn’t have been clearer and I don’t feel that I have to try anymore.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Toulmin

Here is a link to a Wikipedia article about one of the most accessible writers on logical argumentation. Read his works. They will help.

 

[Nom_the_Wise]

Okay then, since you are so highly logical and have studied philosophy, show me which part of the OP is ILLICIT and why. But of course you can’t because you said above the you MISPOKE when you said the question was illicit.

The OP is a fallacy precisely because it is not true. There is Heaven. That makes the question invalid and illicit if taken literally.

As a “What if” scenario ONLY it is valid for the reasons you have pointed out, but you and others have come to heretical conclusions in your attempts at reasoning it out (and I don’t mean “all” but some).

I felt I had to answer that (again).

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**In several of yesterdays posts are expressions, that would be joyful for atheists to read and serves them arguments against Christianity.

We really must be careful not to put phrases like:

1. But What IF There is No Heaven? What then?
   Or
2. He says to pray " Our Father who art in heaven" not “Our Father who IS heaven”.
   Or
3. Many people think that heaven is a place. This is not so.
   Or
4. we were always with God and might be didn’t need a redeemer?

And several more of such misleading words I won’t comment for it’s too many.

But to 1.
God created heaven, which was revealed to us by Jesus Christ as a place on many verses in the New Testament.

To 2.
In Old English, its Our Father, thou art in heaven. Art is the old word for you are ARE – you live, you dwell (in that PLACE) you had created.

To 3.
That heaven is definitely a PLACE, we are told by Jesus – as in this thread often repeated; in John 14,2 and many others.

To 4.
We originate in and from God who created us, for probation for heaven. So, if we are not aborted by unscrupulous parents, we can kind of “earn” heaven through the grace of God and be like the Angels, who too had a free will to decide.
It’s outmost blasphemy to suggest we didn’t need Jesus then, as we where with God before we where born. We where not consciously in heaven, but an idea of God in which we originate. We had not yet been tried and tested with our free will and decision of our being for or against God.

Let’s not and never! talk inconsiderately about all that concerns God! for hallowed be thy name! and hallowed is thy incredibly great deed of Jesus Christ’s salvation!
**

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**In several of yesterdays posts are expressions, that would be joyful for atheists to read and serves them arguments against Christianity.

We really must be careful not to put phrases like:

1. But What IF There is No Heaven? What then?
   Or
2. Please cite Church law that prohibits ASKING this question.
   Or
3. Many people think that heaven is a place. This is not so.
   Or
4. we were always with God and might be didn’t need a redeemer?

And several of such misleading words more I won’t comment for it’s too many.

But to 1.
God created heaven, which was revealed to us by Jesus Christ as a place on many verses in the New Testament.

To 2.
The Church does not prohibit any question. We might ask the Church always any question. But there are governing questions that tell or at least influence people to the “THAT MIGHT BE SO”. Mostly that is blasphemy. Imagine a question like: “Was your mother really a *****, hoe, before she married”. That’s a worldly huge, incredible insult to be asked. In religious things other questions are highly blasphemous - because they insult God…

To 3.
That heaven is definitely a PLACE, told us Jesus – as in this thread often repeated, in John 14,2 and many others.

To 4.
We originate in and from God who created us, for probation for heaven. So, if we are not aborted by unscrupulous parents, we can kind of earn heaven through the grace of God. It’s blasphemy to suggest we didn’t need Jesus then, as we where with God before we where born, as we where not consciously in heaven, but an idea of God in which we originate. We had not yet been tried and tested with our free will and decision for or against God.

Let’s not and never talk inconsiderately about all that concerns God! for hallowed be thy name! and hallowed is thy incredibly great deed of Jesus Christ’s salvation!
**

 

[twb1621]

You have created quite a strawman here. This is not my position. I’m not frustrated at all except by the poor catechesis I’ve seen demonstrated on this thread.

There is no “straw man” created from what I posted. I posted the Truth based on my devotion to Our Lord. In so doing I do not make a judgement of anyone else’s relationship with God.

“I do not base it on what He offers me any more than He based suffering His passion on my prior commitment to accept Him.” Your “prior” commitment? Were you alive before the crucifixion?

No more than you were alive to benefit as one forgiven for your sins by His Passion and Death.

You have accepted the crucified and risen Christ, not the God of the Old Testament alone. We do not know any other Christ than the one that died on the cross for our salvation so that we might enter Heaven. That is the Covenent.

Absolutely… However there is two sides to that covenant.

Christians are not Jews because we love God through the death and resurrection of Christ, which “bought” us the *literal *Heaven. But, if Heaven was taken from us as this thread has suggested, then that would mean that Christ was not the Son of God and his crucifixion a waste of time and pain. So without the New Testament, without the promise of Heaven through Christ’s death and resurrection, that would take us back to the Old Covenant and we would still be waiting for the Messiah, thus making us “Jews” by the terms of the Old Testament.

But if, as this scenario has suggested, Christ died and was resurrected and then said “You cannot go to Heaven anymore…when you die, you die” then Christ has broken his promise. That’s the heresy.

There is no insinuation that there is no heaven. The thread obviously was to bring to consideration whether a person only loves Jesus for what He has offered us in His salvation or if we recognize reasons to Love Him regardless of Heaven itself. That is not Blasphemous or heretical nor should anyone take it as offensive. It is an honest question we at some time should ask ourselves to be sure of our own devotion. As we know, God judges our works by what is in our hearts and He is the only person who knows the depth of that sincerity. With a little thought, this thread is raising exactly that issue. Is our love sincere in itself or is it based on our expectation in receiving eternal life only. I myself am shocked that this thread has gone as far as it has considering it should have been an obvious question with an honest answer. In stead, it seems to have raised much defensiveness in some… I find that Curious

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

I am really very hurt by this. I am.

Goodbye.

I’m gladyour hurt,i realy am because i was also hurt by your words using a womans body parts for the whole world to see and capturing me saying it. If you cannot win or prove a point you go to extremes to get your point accross now maybe you can see what it does to others,when you make remarks because you want attention and dont care who you insult to put your point accross. go to my mail and see what i realy think of you but then today i repented because the devil made me do it PS I prayed about all this and i do care about you and i know you do love the Lord alot, but yu make a mountain out of a mole hill! Love of Christ Nancy

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**

I am really very hurt by this I am.

I’m glad you are hurt, I really am because I was also hurt by your words

This is a great present to the vultures of Christianity - the atheists.

If you quarrel and hurt each other - why don’t you do it in private mail?!

Let me tell you somet both of you’ll agree:
When you meet in heaven, you’ll say; - oh no, how silly we where - lets forget it :hug1: :imsorry: :hug3: :grouphug:**