If there was a third place then, why not a third place now?

[Bill_Pick]

Purgatory, Fact or Fiction?.. It is a great blessing.
Since the Gates of Heaven were closed from the time of Adam and Eve, and no one entered, John 3:13, where did all of the Biblical Prophets and hero’s go until the Gates were reopened at the Crucifixion? Surely they could not have been in hell, as that is permanent and no one leaves there. Moses and Elias appeared to Jesus before the Crucifixion, Matthew 17:3. From where did they come? Limbo? Sheol? Purgatory? There had to have been a third place, right? If there was a third place then, why not a third place now?

 

[prodigalson12]

I’ve been told that they were simply asleep, kind of on hold for all practical purposes. Time in the afterlife is not the same as time in mortal life as well, so don’t fret over the time frame, it’s a blink to them, almost an eternity for us. When you realize God stands outside of the time line in itself, for it is his creation, then you can take in concepts which have no regard for it, for we as mortals are limited to staying within the confines of linear time.

 

[kimbaichan]

I’m fairly certain the Baltimore Catechism says Limbo. I think the CCC is silent on the subject. Where does that leave the teaching on Limbo? In limbo, of course! (Sorry, couldn’t resist.)

 

[tee_eff_em]

CHRIST DESCENDED INTO HELL

tee

 

[Leonius]

According to some Limbo is in hell, been separated from God is hell you see, even if you are not actually been burned in a fiery pit.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Does the Cathloic Church still preach limbo

 

[Bill_Pick]

I’m fairly certain the Baltimore Catechism says Limbo. I think the CCC is silent on the subject. Where does that leave the teaching on Limbo? In limbo, of course! (Sorry, couldn’t resist.)

Limo Was a teaching of the CC that said bady that did not get baptis went to and not heaven or helll, it does not teaching this any more

 

[Thorwald]

Purgatory, Fact or Fiction?.. It is a great blessing.
Since the Gates of Heaven were closed from the time of Adam and Eve, and no one entered, John 3:13, where did all of the Biblical Prophets and hero’s go until the Gates were reopened at the Crucifixion? Surely they could not have been in hell, as that is permanent and no one leaves there. Moses and Elias appeared to Jesus before the Crucifixion, Matthew 17:3. From where did they come? Limbo? Sheol? Purgatory? There had to have been a third place, right? If there was a third place then, why not a third place now?

Apparently, there is a ‘paradise’ (resting place???). Jesus mentioned to one of those that were also crucified beside Him, that this other person will be in paradise with him that evening. After His resurrection, Jesus told those that He met on the road, to not touch Him, as He had not yet ascended up to His Father (I assume…heaven). It is also written, that no man has ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven (Jesus Christ, Himself). Evidently, there is some ‘holding place’ called paradise, where the saved are sent after carnal death.

 

[1ke]

Does the Cathloic Church still preach limbo

You are confusing two different theological concepts.

“Limbo of the Fathers,” is a colloquillism. This place is called The Bosom of Abraham, Sheol, and Paradise in the Bible. It is a term used for the place the just men and women of the Old Testament waited prior to Jesus.

He preached to these spirits “in prison” during his three days in the tomb. Heaven was then opened up upon his Resurrection. This place ceased to exist with the resurrection of Jesus. The Church professes that Jesus “descended to the dead” or it is rendered “descended into Hell” (not the Hell of the Damned, but Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek). The Church does not call this Limbo, although individual writers have referenced it this way.

There is another theological concept called “limbo” unrelated to Limbo of the Fathers. This concept is a theological speculation-- a place short of the beatific vision (Heaven) that those who lack baptism yet also lack personal sin (i.e., babies who die without baptism) might go. This has **never **been Catholic doctrine, ever. It was, and remains, a speculation of theologians only.

Please be precise in your discussion of doctrines in the Catholic Church. These are two separate things.

A third place does exist. But it need not exist based on the Limbo of the Fathers having existed prior to Jesus’ resurrection. Purgatory has nothing to do with the Old Testament Just awaiting the Savior. Heaven is now open. Purgatory’s purpose is distinct from that of the Bosom of Abraham and not in any way contingent upon it having existed.

 

[Bill_Pick]

I will not argue with you buy the the words have not been use in the CC for many years so please tell me a Cathloic and show me where I was in a RCIA class 6 ,4 , and 2 years ago, so this is all new to me or may you are not Cathloic.
If any Cathloic read this Please help us out.

 

[SyCarl]

Limbus patrum

Though it can hardly be claimed, on the evidence of extant literature, that a definite and consistent belief in the limbus patrum of Christian tradition was universal among the Jews, it cannot on the other hand be denied that, more especially in the extra-canonical writings of the second or first centuries B.C., some such belief finds repeated expression; and New Testament references to the subject remove all doubt as to the current Jewish belief in the time of Christ. Whatever name may be used in apocryphal Jewish literature to designate the abode of the departed just, the implication generally is

* that their condition is one of happiness,
* that it is temporary, and
* that it is to be replaced by a condition of final and permanent bliss when the Messianic Kingdom is established.

In the New Testament, Christ refers by various names and figures to the place or state which Catholic tradition has agreed to call the limbus patrum. In Matthew 8:11, it is spoken of under the figure of a banquet “with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of Heaven” (cf. Luke 8:29; 14:15), and in Matthew 25:10 under the figure of a marriage feast to which the prudent virgins are admitted, while in the parable of Lazarus and Dives it is called “Abraham’s bosom” (Luke 16:22) and in Christ’s words to the penitent thief on Calvary the name paradise is used (Luke 23:43). St. Paul teaches (Ephesians 4:9) that before ascending into Heaven Christ “also descended first into the lower parts of the earth,” and St. Peter still more explicitly teaches that “being put to death indeed, in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit,” Christ went and “preached to those souls that were in prison, which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noah” (1 Peter 3:18-20).

It is principally on the strength of these Scriptural texts, harmonized with the general doctrine of the Fall and Redemption of mankind, that Catholic tradition has defended the existence of the limbus patrum as a temporary state or place of happiness distinct from Purgatory. As a result of the Fall, Heaven was closed against men. Actual possession of the beatific vision was postponed, even for those already purified from sin, until the Redemption should have been historically completed by Christ’s visible ascendancy into Heaven. Consequently, the just who had lived under the Old Dispensation, and who, either at death or after a course of purgatorial discipline, had attained the perfect holiness required for entrance into glory, were obliged to await the coming of the Incarnate Son of God and the full accomplishment of His visible earthly mission. Meanwhile they were “in prison,” as St. Peter says; but, as Christ’s own words to the penitent thief and in the parable of Lazarus clearly imply, their condition was one of happiness, notwithstanding the postponement of the higher bliss to which they looked forward. And this, substantially, is all that Catholic tradition teaches regarding the limbus patrum.

Limbus infantium

The New Testament contains no definite statement of a positive kind regarding the lot of those who die in original sin without being burdened with grievous personal guilt. But, by insisting on the absolute necessity of being “born again of water and the Holy Ghost” (John 3:5) for entry into the kingdom of Heaven (see BAPTISM, subtitle Necessity of Baptism), Christ clearly enough implies that men are born into this world in a state of sin, and St. Paul’s teaching to the same effect is quite explicit (Romans 5:12 sqq.). On the other hand, it is clear from Scripture and Catholic tradition that the means of regeneration provided for this life do not remain available after death, so that those dying unregenerate are eternally excluded from the supernatural happiness of the beatific vision (John 9:4, Luke 12:40, 16:19 sqq., 2 Corinthians 5:10; see also APOCATASTASIS). The question therefore arises as to what, in the absence of a clear positive revelation on the subject, we ought in conformity with Catholic principles to believe regarding the eternal lot of such persons. Now it may confidently be said that, as the result of centuries of speculation on the subject, we ought to believe that these souls enjoy and will eternally enjoy a state of perfect natural happiness; and this is what Catholics usually mean when they speak of the limbus infantium, the “children’s limbo.”

The best way of justifying the above statement is to give a brief sketch of the history of Catholic opinion on the subject. We shall try to do so by selecting the particular and pertinent facts from the general history of Catholic speculation regarding the Fall and original sin, but it is only right to observe that a fairly full knowledge of this general history is required for a proper appreciation of these facts.

newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm

 

[1ke]

I will not argue with you buy the the words have not been use in the CC for many years so please tell me a Cathloic and show me where I was in a RCIA class 6 ,4 , and 2 years ago, so this is all new to me or may you are not Cathloic.
If any Cathloic read this Please help us out.

Um, this sentence makes absolutely no sense at all.

 

[Christ_Imitator]

People don’t go to Heaven or Hell until the rapture.

I’m sure there is a waiting place after we die, but I don’t know where.
I believe in “purgatory”, just not the Purgatory that Catholicism teaches.
We wait there to be judged in the “end times” of the Earth.

 

[prodigalson12]

People don’t go to Heaven or Hell until the rapture.

I’m sure there is a waiting place after we die, but I don’t know where.
I believe in “purgatory”, just not the Purgatory that Catholicism teaches.
We wait there to be judged in the “end times” of the Earth.

Can you please elaborate upon what you believe purgatory is then?

 

[Christ_Imitator]

I think the important thing is that we live our lives dedicated to the Lord, so that we may enter into Heaven. I really don’t think that the waiting place
(“purgatory” in Catholic teaching) is important. Which is why it really wasn’t talked about much in the Bible. (That I am aware of anyway).

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Purgatory, Fact or Fiction?.. It is a great blessing.
Since the Gates of Heaven were closed from the time of Adam and Eve, and no one entered, John 3:13, where did all of the Biblical Prophets and hero’s go until the Gates were reopened at the Crucifixion? Surely they could not have been in hell, as that is permanent and no one leaves there. Moses and Elias appeared to Jesus before the Crucifixion, Matthew 17:3. From where did they come? Limbo? Sheol? Purgatory? There had to have been a third place, right? If there was a third place then, why not a third place now?

We don’t know where they went. I’ve always assumed that at the Transfiguration, Moses and Elijah came from heaven. God would have decided where they stayed after death. They were two of the greatest Jewish fathers, Moses representing the law, and Elijah the prophets.

In Matthew, after the earthquake which accompanied Christ’s resurrection, “the bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised… and seen by many”. So they seemed to have been kept in God’s memory somehow, since the chances were that a lot of their bodies would have been well decayed before this time.

In another place, Christ claimed “Abraham rejoiced” to see His day. Hence Abraham was obvioulsy alive, and capable of watching events as they unfolded.

As to Moses and Elijah, if they didn’t come from heaven, then my guess would be the very upper reaches of Purgatory, which I suspect ranges from the near heavenly to the near hellish. At what state of Purgatory we enter will depend on our sanctity when we die.

Other than that I don’t worry about it much. In the end, it’s all really depends on God.

 

[1ke]

People don’t go to Heaven or Hell until the rapture.

This is unbiblical.

 

[Thorwald]

Purgatory, Fact or Fiction?.. It is a great blessing.
Since the Gates of Heaven were closed from the time of Adam and Eve, and no one entered, John 3:13, where did all of the Biblical Prophets and hero’s go until the Gates were reopened at the Crucifixion? Surely they could not have been in hell, as that is permanent and no one leaves there. Moses and Elias appeared to Jesus before the Crucifixion, Matthew 17:3. From where did they come? Limbo? Sheol? Purgatory? There had to have been a third place, right? If there was a third place then, why not a third place now?

There is some mention, of what the ‘holding place’ for the ‘non-saved’ is like, in the N/T story concerning the ‘rich man’ and the ‘beggar’ at his gate. It almost appears, that there is some sort of ‘ditch’ separating ‘paradise’ (for the saved) and a ‘hot’ place (the rich man was thirsty, but had no water to drink) for the unsaved.

I wonder, if ‘hell’ is actually the molten magma area of the earth. It would tie in nicely to ‘total darkness’ and ‘pain & suffering’. :