If there was no Devil

[Bezant]

…would evil and wickedness still exist in the world, and why or why not?

 

[in_servitude]

Was there evil and wickedness in Heaven before Lucifer rebelled?

My understanding is that God made every angel perfect and without a tendency to sin. Yet, in the wonderful environment of Heaven - free will was still free to sin. So, if it can happen right in the face of God, it can happen on this side of the veil here in Earth.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

**So, if it can happen right in the face of God, it can happen on this side of the veil here in Earth. **

Well said. :clapping:

 

[kristine020]

Name: Kristine
Age:22 years old
Work: web design
Location: Caloocan city
Saying;“You know you are in love when you can’t fall asleep because reality is finally better than your dreams.”

let’s assume there is no Devil!
there is a devil if u believe in god u got to believe in devil and yes u could sin if there was no devil!

 

[Bob_Crowley]

…would evil and wickedness still exist in the world, and why or why not?

While there could and would still be sin, I suspect things would be a lot easier. Temptations would not be presented with the same force, and the tyrants would lose their spiritual power source.

I mean take someone like Adolf Hitler. Prior to WWI, he was a vagabond living hand to mouth in Vienna, the very last man to be chosen as “Most Likely to Succeed” in the school yearbook.

Yet a dropout like him could rise to become the brutal dictator of Europe. Obviously he didn’t do it alone, but it’s not hard to see where the Third Reich got it’s power and brilliance from - the devil.

His third and final offer during the temptation of Christ was to say the kingdoms of the world were all his, and that he could give them to whoever he wanted. So take him out of the scene, and that alone should reduce a lot of tension.

 

[Bezant]

Was there evil and wickedness in Heaven before Lucifer rebelled?

If I may ask, when exactly did the devil rebel against God? Does the Church say anything about this?

My understanding is that God made every angel perfect and without a tendency to sin. Yet, in the wonderful environment of Heaven - free will was still free to sin.

Why did God create angels with free will? Is it really free will if they were created without a tendency to sin? And how did they sin without that tendency?

So, if it can happen right in the face of God, it can happen on this side of the veil here in Earth.

But the evil that happened in heaven (the rebellion) was because of the Devil. Would that rebellion have happened if the Devil had never been?

 

[Bezant]

While there could and would still be sin, I suspect things would be a lot easier. Temptations would not be presented with the same force, and the tyrants would lose their spiritual power source.

I mean take someone like Adolf Hitler. Prior to WWI, he was a vagabond living hand to mouth in Vienna, the very last man to be chosen as “Most Likely to Succeed” in the school yearbook.

Yet a dropout like him could rise to become the brutal dictator of Europe. Obviously he didn’t do it alone, but it’s not hard to see where the Third Reich got it’s power and brilliance from - the devil.

His third and final offer during the temptation of Christ was to say the kingdoms of the world were all his, and that he could give them to whoever he wanted. So take him out of the scene, and that alone should reduce a lot of tension.

Therefore, if the devil no longer existed, would we no longer see evil on the scale of Hitler or Stalin?

 

[in_servitude]

If I may ask, when exactly did the devil rebel against God? Does the Church say anything about this?

Exact time of rebellion? Genesis puts it prior to the creation of the first human. But the exact time? Not exactly sure.

Why did God create angels with free will? Is it really free will if they were created without a tendency to sin? And how did they sin without that tendency?

Why did God do anything? I do not presume to know the reasons. Is it really free will? Yes. How did they do it? The Church teaches that it was their choice to do so.

How can one exhibit holiness without a choice?

But the evil that happened in heaven (the rebellion) was because of the Devil. Would that rebellion have happened if the Devil had never been?

I suspect that it would. With many billions of angles in heaven, each one having the choice to follow God or to rebel against Him - the odds are pretty good that at least one would have made the choice to rebel.

 

[carlysrose]

…would evil and wickedness still exist in the world, and why or why not?

Yes because there are lesser gods which even YWH admits to, and they have all had a contribution in creating this world. The problem is not in admitting to them, but in worshipping them. So when there is lack of recognition, there is hostility, creating a space for what we call evil.

This is my opinion.

 

[Bezant]

Exact time of rebellion? Genesis puts it prior to the creation of the first human. But the exact time? Not exactly sure.

I’m not asking for precise time however I am curious, why God then allowed Satan to appear before him in heaven?

Is it really free will? Yes. How did they do it? The Church teaches that it was their choice to do so.

But the question is, why?

How can one exhibit holiness without a choice?

I suspect that it would. With many billions of angles in heaven, each one having the choice to follow God or to rebel against Him - the odds are pretty good that at least one would have made the choice to rebel.

Could a second rebellion be possible, then?

 

[in_servitude]

I’m not asking for precise time however I am curious, why God then allowed Satan to appear before him in heaven?

That is an interesting question. God continues to allow the devil to use His power, too. Keep in mind the book of Job. Here’s Job 1:6-12

6 One day, when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, the satan also came among them. 7 The LORD said to the satan, “Where have you been?” Then the satan answered the LORD and said, “Roaming the earth and patrolling it.” 8 The LORD said to the satan, “Have you noticed my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him, blameless and upright, fearing God and avoiding evil.” 9 The satan answered the LORD and said, “Is it for nothing that Job is God-fearing? 10 Have you not surrounded him and his family and all that he has with your protection? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his livestock are spread over the land. 11 But now put forth your hand and touch all that he has, and surely he will curse you to your face.” 12 The LORD said to the satan, “Very well, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on him.” So the satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Thus, is appears that God and Satan continue to interact even after Satan was kicked out of Heaven.

But the question is, why?

Also an interesting question - but I have nothing to offer.

Could a second rebellion be possible, then?

The Church teaches, “No.” The reason being that given that the angles made their decision with full knowledge. Since additional information is not coming to them, they will not be caused to make a different decision. We are different, however. We continue to get new and different information as we move through time.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Therefore, if the devil no longer existed, would we no longer see evil on the scale of Hitler or Stalin?

I doubt it. We would still see sin, but the spiritual power behind these tyrants would no longer be present.

 

[Bezant]

That is an interesting question. God continues to allow the devil to use His power, too. Keep in mind the book of Job. Here’s Job 1:6-12

6 One day, when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, the satan also came among them. 7 The LORD said to the satan, “Where have you been?” Then the satan answered the LORD and said, “Roaming the earth and patrolling it.” 8 The LORD said to the satan, “Have you noticed my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him, blameless and upright, fearing God and avoiding evil.” 9 The satan answered the LORD and said, “Is it for nothing that Job is God-fearing? 10 Have you not surrounded him and his family and all that he has with your protection? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his livestock are spread over the land. 11 But now put forth your hand and touch all that he has, and surely he will curse you to your face.” 12 The LORD said to the satan, “Very well, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on him.” So the satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

On the other hand, if the rebellion was pre-Creation I think it’s strange that God allowed the ultimate evil to stand in his midst. Furthermore, Satan seems to be acting more as a servant here, than a rebel that has it out for Job and is held back by God’s limits. It’s God who first mentions Job, and the trials Satan inflicts upon Job are in accordance with God’s will.

 

[PumpkinSeed]

If Lucifer didn’t rebel, then somebody else would have. Somewhere along the line things were to go awry eventually.

 

[in_servitude]

On the other hand, if the rebellion was pre-Creation I think it’s strange that God allowed the ultimate evil to stand in his midst. Furthermore, Satan seems to be acting more as a servant here, than a rebel that has it out for Job and is held back by God’s limits. It’s God who first mentions Job, and the trials Satan inflicts upon Job are in accordance with God’s will.

I’m not sure I follow. Satan is remains bounded by God, and uses the powers given to him by God however he wishes. It’s a mystery to me why God permits this, but it is what it is. I just focus on the good and armor up against the evil as much as I can.