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WanderAimlessly
Guest
If it were the only Mass at the Parish I was at, I would switch parishes. I have no desire to go to a TLM.
If Universal TLM Indult Comes To Your Parish - How Often Would You Go?
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Contarini
Guest
It’s a horrible practice in Protestantism. It completely undercuts the unity of the local congregation. Of course, Catholics don’t really care much about that (the way the Orthodox do). People already go to whatever Mass is at a convenient time. It’s not much of a gathering of the community, is it?
To have real parish Eucharist you’d have to have smaller parishes, which would mean that you’d have to have more priests, which would mean that you’d have to rethink the nature of the priesthood. I think this would be great, but who am I?
Still, I’d hate to see you take another step toward the ghastly megachurch Protestant model of customer-tailored worship.
Edwin
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Ridgerunner
Guest
I trust, Edwin, that in saying “real…Eucharist” you have something in mind other that the Real Presence, and when you say “Eucharist” you mean something like gemutlichheit; what I often hear Protestants refer to as “fellowshipping”. I would agree that “Eucharist” in that sense is not traditionally central to the Mass; though it can be, and often is, a secondary effect.
I think the Catholic Church’s rethinking the nature of the priesthood is unlikely, and certainly would not be rethought in order to encourage fellowshipping. I have noticed that Episcopal churches tend to be small and designed like something out of the Shire. I never knew why. But now I think I do.
I definitely agree that “customer”-tailored worship can be dreadful. I think the Catholic Church is shrinking back from that model, even as we speak.
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
I’d go to the Pauline. The “other” Mass would not even be a consideration provided the Pauline was available.
Sorry, couldn’t resist, it sounded so snotty. Any rate, I imagine I would occasionally go to the Tridentine (esp. if I hadn’t made my obligation and there was a time crunch), like for an early morning Mass or a pre-Benediction Mass, but I wouldn’t frequent it.
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
You know, that was along the lines of what I was thinking when someone stated that it would divide the Church. I don’t really think it would divide it any more than it already is and I certainly don’t think it will HARM the Church. I mean, I don’t know the people who attend the 6:30 AM Sunday Mass, where there’s only organ accompaniment and you’re out in 45 minutes, or the people who go to the 5:30 Sunday PM Mass where the youth choir sings. I can’t imagine that the Tridentine Mass will divide us any more than that.
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
In your previous paragraph, you’ve shown a overtly “cafeteria” attitutude. Quo Prium couldn’t bind future popes in terms of the discipline that they might or might not impose on the sacraments. It may not have been “outlawed,” but it was definitely derrogated in terms of being the standard Mass of the Church. Any future pope would have to the power and authority to suppress the Tridentine Mass. Priests would then be legally restricted from saying it. They HAD the right to celebrate the Tridientine Mass in perpetuity…right up to the point where they no longer had the right. To deny this is to willfully disregard not only canon law, but dogmatic teaching on the need for obedience to the Supreme Pontiff.
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Contarini
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No, you misunderstood. I said “a real *parish *Eucharist,” meaning a celebration of the Eucharist that brings together a particular local church around the Lord’s Table.
This is not some wacky Protestant idea. Granted, it’s the Orthodox who stress it as *the *basis for ecclesiology, but I don’t think even the Pope (who is famous for rejecting the more congregationalist forms of “eucharistic ecclesiology”) would reject the idea that the Eucharist is supposed to be the central act around which a local church is constituted. That’s all I’m saying. For that to happen you would need to have a parish small enough for everyone to celebrate one Eucharist together.
The fact that you can disparage this as some fluffy Protestant “gemutlichkeit” shows how far from ancient Catholicism you are. This is not about warm fuzzy feelings (though I don’t think those are as much to be despised as many traditional Catholics believe). It’s a basic theological reality–the mystical Body of Christ in one place gathered together at one time to offer the Sacrifice and receive the sacramental Body.
Actually I’m afraid it’s the other way round. Our small numbers mean that there aren’t usually a lot of us in one place, and our affluence (as a group–I’m not particularly affluent by Western standards, though I’m not poor either) allows a small congregation to maintain a building, which Catholics couldn’t do as easily (both because you have larger numbers of less affluent people and because you don’t give that much on the average, though I’m not sure that Episcopalians on the average do any better).
I’ve always thought of the vast size of Catholic parishes as something anyone would consider highly unfortunate, forced on you by the shortage of priests. But perhaps I’m wrong!
I really struggle with this, because I love the small size and warm community of Episcopal churches, but I know that the only reason we can maintain this is that we are a bunch of effete snobs. (OK, that’s unduly harsh, but there’s some truth to it!)
Edwin
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srp643
Guest
Definitely primary. Pleasantly surprised by the results of this poll. Great stuff, thanks. 
Dominus vobiscum.
Dominus vobiscum.
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Marian_Carroll
Guest
**GENERAL REMINDER:
The topic of this thread is a poll question:
If Universal TLM Indult Comes To Your Parish - How Often Would You Go?
Those wishing to discuss other topics are requested to cease attempting to hijack this one, and initiate their own thread topic or join an already ongoing discussion .**
The topic of this thread is a poll question:
If Universal TLM Indult Comes To Your Parish - How Often Would You Go?
Those wishing to discuss other topics are requested to cease attempting to hijack this one, and initiate their own thread topic or join an already ongoing discussion .**
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TradyDaddy
Guest
You detested the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass? That says it all about modernists, I don’t even have to comment. I do know that if I said that about the Pauline “Mass”, it would get edited … or worse. LOL.
Also, you did NOT have to sit and translate. The missals have the translation on the next page. Vere disingenuous.
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
Abusurd. Cardinal Dulles is hardly a modernist (he hung out with Father Feeny) and he said he was actually “repulsed by the elaborate symbolism in which the Holy Sacrifice was cloaked.”
cardinalrating.com/cardinal_181__article_109.htm
Not liking the form isn’t the same as detesting the substance. I wouldn’t level the accusation of disingenuity at anyone, if I were you, in the same paragraph in which you make the error of confusing the two.
The Pauline Rite IS the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, as is the Tridentine.
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CarolAnnSFO
Guest
I’m in the choir, so how often I would go would depend on whether the TLM Mass became the “choir Mass”. If it did, I’d go all the time! (The Latin would not be a problem; we now sing in English, Latin, and French).
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Pace e Bene
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Pace e Bene
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Rand_Al_Thor
Guest
Pax tecum!
Why are you putting the word “Mass” in quotes? Is the NO not a real Mass? Only the TLM? I know that you prefer the TLM, but why degrade the NO by implying that it is not even a real Mass?
In Christ,
Rand
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TradyDaddy
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“Hung out”???..JK, you make me laugh sometimes.
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mommyof4
Guest
I don’t know how to answer this poll. I have never been to a TLM mass, so I don’t know if I would like it or not. I think I would go once or twice out of curiosity to see if I liked it or not. In the end, I would probably go to the NO mass most of the time. I’m not good with foreign languages, and I have a feeling I would be frustraded trying to understand what was happening. I also think that my children would be very frustrated with it, too.
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ncjohn
Guest
Wow! You put words in my mouth and then go making all kinds of unfounded judgments about someone you know nothing about.
I feel totally subdued now and incredibly humbled to realize that I am a “modernist” for preferring the accepted Mass of the Church. I will head off for confession at the first opportunity and confess this grievous sin!
Quite frankly it was experiences with people with attitudes like yours that caused me to leave the Church for almost 25 years. My experience with the TLM growing up was that it was all form and no substance, People showing up out of obligation but not living anything of the Christian life when they stepped out the door. People sending us kids to Catholic school but living none of what we were being taught. It was not the Mass I hated, but I ended up tying all of that up with all the hypocracy I saw in the Church of the time. It was surely not everyone’s experience, but I know from many others that I’ve talked to that I am not at all alone in this.
And yes, you did have to sit and translate. Instead of listening to the Word of God, you sat going back and forth between pages trying to match the Latin words being spoken with the written translation–at least those who bothered rather than just sitting praying rosaries or something else instead. As quoted in this current thread forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=114814 we are to be listening attentively rather than trying to read along. So please don’t tell me what I did and didn’t have to be doing. I was there, thank you.
As I said, I might attend one now just to see how I might react and whether things have changed. Maybe by becoming something people actually desire the experience and the substance will have improved. Maybe my adult ability to distiinguish between the Mass and the people attending it will have improved. I know I see similar attitudes from people at NO Masses also, so it certainly isn’t unique to the pre-V2 TLM.
Even if that is the case however, this is one “modernist”
that greatly prefers being able to listen attentively to what is said. If you like the TLM better for whatever reason you may have, and it brings you closer to God, I rejoice at that. Hopefully you can be equally happy that I am also trying to listen to Him in my pitiful state.Peace,
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Walking_Home
Guest
Let give Card. Dulles credit here -JKIRKLVN—and understand what he is actually saying. He already carried an ingrained prejudicial bias when he encountered our Mass. He found Truth—and did not let his bias stop him. This throws a wrench into anyone saying ------If the Mass had not changed----I would not have joined the Church.
cardinalrating.com/cardinal_181__article_109.htm
(The Tablet, 5 July 2003)
Filled as I was with a Puritan antipathy toward splendour in religious ritual, I found myself actually repulsed by the elaborate symbolism in which the Holy Sacrifice is clothed.” Accustomed to Presbyterian worship, Dulles says that in the Masses he attended as an undergraduate “there was little external unity to be discerned. The priest, so far from telling the congregation when to sit or stand or kneel, carried out his tasks almost as though he were alone.
The congregation, for their part, were not watching with scrupulous exactitude the movements of the celebrant. Some, on the contrary, were reciting prayers on mysterious strings of beads which Catholics call rosaries. Others were thumbing through pages of prayer-books and missals, which, for all I knew, might have been totally unrelated to the Mass. Not even a hymn was sung to bring unity into this apparently dull and unconnected service.”
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
"Was involved with, “was associated with,” “followed for a time…” take your pick.
Oddly, my reaction to posts in which form is confused with substance and terms like modernism are wildly and inappropriately used is not one of laughter, but rather bemusement that an adult (for example, someone old enough to be a “daddy”) can be so willfully incorrect, so willing to pass on those mistaken “facts” as being Catholic truth, and so smugly superior (esp. when that “superiority” would be inappropriate even if it were founded on innocent ignorance) in how they address their fellow Christians.
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
I never faulted Cardinal Dulles. I’m glad he converted despite his reaction to the Mass. I
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
And yeah, let’s understand what he’s actually saying: he was able to see through what he regarded as unattractive (the form) to the Truth (the substance). I stand by what I said and my use of this citation.
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