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bones_IV
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How?
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puzzleannie
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the liturgy would have continued in the process of organic change, in a logical sequence, accelerated by the reforms of 20th c Popes esp PXII, the Confraternity translation would have been gradually replaced by a new English translation from the original languages, already in the works before J23, the revival of Gregorian chant would have revitalized worship, deep-sixing some of the dreadful 19th c hymns that had come to dominate worship in English speaking countries (see “Why Catholics Can’t Sing” a book reveiwed elsewhere on this forum). Revisions of sacramental rites, already initiated and proposed for study under PXII would have continued.
Unfortunately the rot in seminaries that has led to the scandals we are paying for today, in every way, had already set in before the council was a gleam in J23’s eye.
If it had not already been opened by J23, a successor pope, probably JP2 would have called a second Vatican council by this time to address issues of concern that every 20th c pope has spoken about.
the cultural malaise spawned by the war and totalitarianism and reactions against them would have still run rampant in Western society, and Catholics would still be affected by it, and the Church would have continued to speak prophetically, as in The Church in the Modern World, Humanae Vitae, and the Gospel of Life, but still could not halt the self-destruction of Western Civilization, although remaining a beacon against the darkness.
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Genesis315
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This is true. In one of his early encyclicals Pope Pius XI said one of his plans for his pontificate was to call an ecumenical Council–of course the situation in Europe became too volatile for it until the late 1950s really.
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otjm
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Well, I hate to be the one to break the news, but the likelyhood of that occuring in the lifetimes of anyone on this thread is about nil and none.I know I won’t be satisfied until the new liturgy is gone, the Traditional Mass takes over the Latin rite and Vatican II is put in it’s proper place.
You might do well to read some of what the curent Pope has written about the current Mass, and do more than just concentrate on what he has said he doesn’t like. Read also his letter that accompanied the MP.
As both John Paul 2 and Benedict 16 have said, the problem is not with Vatican 2, it is with its implimentation, or rather, with the fact that much of it has not yet been implemented.
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ravenonthecross
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Well, then we should pray for the strict Traditional interpretation and implementation of the Second Vatican Council, and for the increased proliferation of the Holy Tridentine Mass. Since, the Motu Proprio, I’ve seen online, on numerous sources, a significant number of parishes in beginning to prepare to offer the Holy Tridentine Mass, unfortunately, the Diocese of Pittsburgh ( my diocese) doesn’t seem to be one of the ones fostering such an atmosphere of Tridentine Mass Renewal.
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water
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I couldn’t have become an alter boy because I didn’t speak Latin.
Am I right that I heard long time ago that alter boy must know the Mass in Latin.
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ravenonthecross
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The Traditional form of the Mass, is the Tridentine Mass, the same form of Mass, celebrated by priests, and bishops in the Holy Catholic Church for the last 1,500 years. Until in 1969, when the new mass, the “Novus Ordo” mass (The mass that is most common in most Latin-Rite Catholic churches today), that is commonly said in the vernacular. (But is in large part, intended to be conducted in Latin, with the Readings, homily, and General intercession prayers, and the daily changing prayers to be said in the Vernacular, here, in America, where I’m at, in English.)
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ravenonthecross
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The Tridentine Mass, of the Great Catholic Tradition,still flourishes, and is making a spectacular comeback. Hopefully this venerable Rite, will be exposed to all Latin-Rite Catholics, so that one may see the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in its full riches, glory, sanctity, and reverence, and which reflects the Holy Catholic Faith, in my opinion [edited by Moderator].
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Dempsey1919
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Agree completely. The Latin Mass is “making a spectacular comeback” despite the fact that the liberals have tried to suppress it for many years.
Many people hate that the MP has allowed unrestricted use of the TLM because they know that it will eventually overshadow the NO; they are concerned that the ‘spirit of Vatican II’ will be halted.
As more Catholics are exposed to the Latin Mass, the more it will grow in popularity.
Thankfully, greater use of the Latin Mass may reform many of the so-called ‘reforms’ made in ‘the spirit of Vatican II.’
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JoeMike
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“Pleasantville” = Hollywood-style fantasy. Not based on reality.
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sneakers
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I agree with you on all points. As a result of the above, I wonder if, in some respects, we would have seen a strengthening of faith in those who saw the threats and worked harder to keep the faith in light of the upheavels. At the same time, those who were caught up in the 60’s movements and joined the ‘anti-establishment’ crowd would have either left or become MORE lukewarm in their faith (since they probably would have been that way anyway). Perhaps many of the baby-boomers who left would have come back to the faith of their childhood in the end. Hard to tell what would have happened.
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THutch04
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Well, I think there would have been problems, but different kinds. I don’t think I have to have lived through several decades to know that where we are now is considerably different from where we were 50 years ago. So much changed in society and I can’t help but think that some of that might have eventually slipped into the Catholic Church whether Vatican II occurred or not.
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JKirkLVNV
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No council of the Church has been without controversy and no council of the Church has been without a period of upheaval after the council ended.
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Walking_Home
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It is my understanding that the altar boys learned what was required in Latin. They did not actually need to know Latin to the extent of being Latinists.
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obadiah
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I agree that the Latin mass should be the norm, but who today understands Latin? Translate the Mass into the vernacular. Do not revise it, like the novus ordo. Keep all the beauty, sans Latin, keep incense, Gregorian chant sans Latin; People need to understand what they are praying in their mother tongue. Have the Priest say/chant all the prayers VOCALLY, the old Latin Mass was too silent, I want to HEAR the prayers the Priest prays.
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jj2011
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I love his encyclical Testem benevolentiae, on the heresy of Americanism. [Watering down of doctrine, putting ‘active virtues’ over contemplative life, etc.]Probably not–the same men running the Church now would be governing her. The same problems and cultural revolutions in the world still would have happened. False philosophies would still be on the rise as they were for the centuries before the Council. Liturgical reform would have still be on the minds of the bishop’s and popes. Modern life and sciences would still have forced God out of the public sphere. TV would still bombard the faithful.
Definitely–the light in the Heavens.
papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13teste.htm
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ravenonthecross
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I agree, it should be translate into directly into reverent vernacular tongue, in the case of English, the Elizabethan dialect of English provides a rich and dignified standard of English that is comprehend able to any who may know English (a bit of brushing up on one’s dictionary might be required for a few words, while retaining a solemn manner of prayer, unique to the Holy mass, that separates itself from the vulgar common pedestrian tongue, which does not serve to emphasis the dignity, reverence, and respect that is inherently due in the mass. Either translation in reverant Elizabethan English similar to that of the reverent style of English Translation in the Tridentine Mass missals, or one can learn Latin, and just study the missal both the Latin, and its English Translation on the corresponding side (which is a form of Elizabethan English with the “Thees, thys,and thous, etc.”
But most of all, and FIRSTLY, let us pray, and work towards the restoration of the Tridentine Mass to all Latin-Rite Catholic Churches, and then, we can worry about translation into the vernacular.
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CrypticWritings
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What about the Mass Fr. Kenneth Baker offers at St. Boniface (Holy Wisdom)?:
pittsburghlatinmass.com/
I went there this past year when I was at school in the area. I don’t know him well, but I love that priest, he has a great, positive, attitude and is a blessing to that area and the Catholic Church. Take good care of him and pray much for him!
JMJ
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obadiah
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Maybe there could be a bi-lingual Latin/English Mass; it would be longer, but it would satisfy both parties.What about the Mass Fr. Kenneth Baker offers at St. Boniface (Holy Wisdom)?:
pittsburghlatinmass.com/
I went there this past year when I was at school in the area. I don’t know him well, but I love that priest, he has a great, positive, attitude and is a blessing to that area and the Catholic Church. Take good care of him and pray much for him!
J
JKirkLVNV
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Rather let us pray, as the Holy Father SEEMS to desire, that *“the two Forms of the usage of the Roman Rite can be mutually enriching: new Saints and some of the new Prefaces can and should be inserted in the old Missal. The “Ecclesia Dei” Commission, in contact with various bodies devoted to the usus antiquior, will study the practical possibilities in this regard. The celebration of the Mass according to the Missal of Paul VI will be able to demonstrate, more powerfully than has been the case hitherto, the sacrality which attracts many people to the former usage. The most sure guarantee that the Missal of Paul VI can unite parish communities and be loved by them consists in its being celebrated with great reverence in harmony with the liturgical directives. This will bring out the spiritual richness and the theological depth of this Missal.”
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