There was some variation, but from all the records we have, and the unbroken Sacred Tradition that has been handed down, we must find that infant baptism was the norm. It does seem strange that he would not have been baptized as an infant, since this was the normative practice in the area where he was born and raised.
There are second collections here this weekend for y’all. I don’t know how they will be dispersing funds, maybe through Catholic Charities or St. Vincent? Anyway, you have all been added to the diocesan intercessions. I have been in several parishes and everyone is still in prayer and working on support for you.
I have to confess that I never did get the logic of that statement in the OP.
Thanks for the reply, Guanophore. I’d like to continue with questions, but I’m heading out tonight after work and I won’t be home much this weekend. I hope we can keep going this coming week.
Thank you to everyone still keeping the East Coast in your prayers. I see you’re in the Southwest, Guanophore…send us lots of your sun, please!
I would gladly trade you some of this sun for a little moisture. It is a gorgeous day here today and unseasonbly warm, but also we are dry dry! The forests and even the trees by the major rivers are like tinder. They have been doing some controlled burns on the National forest land which is making the air very smoky, but it is necessary to prevent a worse disaster.
I don’t mind if it stays on topic or not. I do mind if someone changes the topic and then blames me for following the thread they started. As you so often do.
My dear brother in Christ. I have not started any threads in a long time. The fact is, you are easily led off topic by your method.
This style of coming in with presumptions, then compelling your opponents to prove to you that they do not beleive what you insist they do tends to create a lot of rabbit trails. One of those trails in this thread was the issue of tongues, which in no way relates to the thread topic, but upon which you seemed to seize with a mission.
This part? Really? What part of the Christian faith is left after one casts aside the authority of the Church and begins to believe in their private interpretations of Scripture?
I don’t.
I have no idea what you’re talking about here. It sounds like a straw man which you want to trounce in order to avoid answering a question. This is another reason why I pressed you for answers. You trounced on my mention of CARM like a drowning man for a piece of wood. But CARM was simply mentioned to disprove your claim that Evangelicals did not believe in OSAS.
Actually the vast majority of our separate brethren still cling to many aspects of the Apostolic Faith. I was just reading this post on a thread about Anglicanism that testifies belief in many important doctrines of the faith.
We covered this ground once. That depends upon one’s definition of SS. There are many of our Separated Brethren that acknowledge the authority of leaders, Councils, and Creeds.
Many of them do, but not all. Lutherans especially do not. I challenge you to find a Lutheran that does not think a true faith is reflected in one’s works, and cannot be separated from it. I have met a number of them on these threads.
I am not sure there is a relationship between the two, but they do often seem to come together, dont’ they? Most Anglicans and Lutherans affirm the communion of saints, but they do not practice intercession the way the Apostles taught. I think this is an element of Sacred Tradition that got lost with the advent of Sola Scriptura.
This is not universally true either. All SS accept the Virgin Birth, and all the original Reformers, despite espousing SS, still accepted the perpetual virginity and Luther prayed his Rosary until his death.
Yes, Purgatory has certainly been a problem since the Reformation, and there is not a clarity of Scripture enough to satisfy most people.
I suppose if one believes what you do about the definition of SS, then not much. However, I understand that you formed your definition debating with anti-Catholic evangelicals that seem to fall in these categories you have created. Fortunately not all Protestants have fallen that far from the One Faith.
The word thread can be used in different senses. Look at the display. There are several subthreads going on in this TOPIC. You have not only started some of those, you have derailed several.
Read the Topic. You’ll find several threads within it that you started and several you’ve derailed.
As I said, I don’t mind going where the conversation leads. But when you are proven wrong, don’t accuse me of changing the subject when it was you who did it.
. You ought to write a book of your opinions about how someone should hold a discussion. I won’t buy it, but perhaps others are interested.
A trail which is ended but you want to continue to ride apparently.
It was brought up and I engaged the conversation.
This is a very interesting way of stating the relation of works. Do you not think that works flow from “salvation”?
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No, De Maria, Itwin is trying very patiently to tell you that he does not believe in the OSAS ideas that you have boxed him into. He is not creating any strawmen, or avoiding any answers. Neither did he ever claim that “Evangelicals did not believe in OSAS”. Rather, that is the strawman you have introduced. He has said from the beginning that he is Pentecostal, and does not believe in OSAS.
We weren’t talking about separated brethren in general, we were talking about people who hold to Sola Scriptura. If that is what you mean by “separated brethren” then list the many aspects of the Apostolic Faith to which Sola Scripturists continue to cling.
Do Anglicans believe in Sola Scriptura?
So, are you implying that there are versions of Sola Scriptura which are valid?
Are you implying that those who believe in Sola Scriptura can also hold to the authority of the Church? If that is so, then how do you justify their separation from the Catholic Church?
,
Isn’t that what I said?
Is there a certain amount of authority which is acceptable to throw out?
And you therefore justify their breaking away from the Church?
Faith alone does not mean that faith is or is not reflected in works. It means that one is “saved” by faith alone without regards to good works in obedience of God’s will:
1st. That is a contradiction. First you say, “it is not universally true.” then you make a universal statement, “All SS accept the Virgin Birth.”
Do Sola Scripturists accept those doctrines today?
Are you one of them?
According to you, they hold to Church authority. So, if that is true, why don’t they?
But your claim is that they hold to Church authority. And that they keep most of the Apostolic Faith. Therefore, what part of the Apostolic Faith is this? Did not the Apostles celebrate the Mass?
Define SS. Let’s see whether your beliefs about SS or mine are more accurate.
Exactly.
When did I say I formed a definition of SS? Please point that out because you continue to put words in my mouth and characterize me the way you want to, without any basis in reality.
I created? Didn’t you harangue me in half of your posts because I make sure that the Protestants I speak to define precisely what they believe?
How far is too far?
Hm? Are you really arguing in favor of the Protestant belief?
As I understand Catholic doctrine, works flow from faith. And salvation is granted by God to one who exercises his faith in works.
Show me the Catholic doctrine which says that God grants salvation to those who claim faith alone. Then I’ll consider your question.
You and he have created the same straw man. So why would I believe you?
You keep saying that and then dredging up old topics or making up new ones. If you want to get back to the original topic, all you have to do is do it.
I have already. But I guess you didn’t read all the messages as you claimed.
:harp:
Please carry on Guanaphore and DeMaria. This is entertaining and informative.
From your posts I can see that you are both passionate about the faith and how to engage others about it. May I suggest that both your approaches may be effective as different people respond differently to different approaches. Now, with that statement, I agree.
As for me, I prefer not to debate with Catholics. I do so only when I feel pressed to do so. I’ve tried at least three times to end the discussion with Guanophore. But then he continues to press the issue, and I feel it necessary to respond.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Sorry De Maria. I am not as good at keeping up with the rabbit trails as you are. You create them faster than I can run! I am still back on this:
You asked me to provide information on which mainline Protestants still adhere to Apostolic Tradition. I pointed out that they do not conceptualize it as a unity, as you do, but that all Protestants adhere to some Sacred Tradition, some more than others. I have you a link to a post by an Anglican listing some Sacred Tradition her ecclesial community embraces.
The NT canon of scripture is the main one, and after that, the Trinity.
Not at all in the way you have defined it, no.
I am sure the definition you have forwarded is a valid one for some, especially those hostile anti-Catholic evangelicals you have been debating on that other forum. I would certainly stipulate that you have accurately represented their views on it.
They retained the idea in principle of authority. In rejecting the corrupt officials of their time, they also rejected the offices they occupied, justifying this separation by claiming they wanted to purify the Church and bring it back to it’s foundation in the Word of God. Please note, I am not trying to “justify their separation”, just making the point that belief in SS does not mean those ecclesial communties reject pastoral authority, doctrinal authority, and other aspects of Sacred Tradition.
Your representation of SS was not entirely accurate.
I never disagreed with you. You assumed I disagreed because I disagreed with other statements you made, so you lumped me into a category, just like you did Itwin.
The Reformers certainly thought so. They observed their corrupt clerics, and determined that they should be judged in the light of Scripture, and when their actions were inconsistent, they should be opposed.
This is an example of you making an erroneous assumption.
It is good to see that you are willing to do some research on what your separated brethren believe.
