If we are not justified in Baptism...Then Christ died in vain

[De_Maria]

If we are not justified in Baptism…
If Baptism is only a sign…Then Christ died in vain.

Jesus Christ did not abolish faith and works.

Matthew 25:31-46
King James Version (KJV)
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Jesus Chist did not abolish the Commandments.
Matthew 19:17
King James Version (KJV)
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Revelation 22:14
King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Jesus Christ established the Sacraments so that we might be saved by them. Therefore, any Christian who ignores the Sacraments makes Jesus sacrifice void. Why? Because we are justified in the Sacraments. We are justified in Baptism by the washing of regeneration and the renewal of the Holy Spirit. We are further justified everytime we partake of the Eucharist. And we justified again when we are freed from our sins in Confession. All of these are outpourings of the Holy Spirit by which we are brought to righteousness before God. Therefore any Christian who wants to be justified by keeping the Commandments but ignores or denies the power of God in the Sacraments, that Christian is frustrating the grace of God:

Galatians 2:21
King James Version (KJV)
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Mark 16:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[AnneElizabeth]

Does intent of the participant in a sacrament matter?

I mean, if someone just goes and gets Baptized because that is simply ‘what is done’… does Christ actually work through it? Or is it on hold until the participant realizes the Truth of it?

If I recall some Pharasees were called’ brood of vipers’ because they didn’t actually mean to reform their lives before being Baptized.

 

[De_Maria]

Does intent of the participant in a sacrament matter?

I mean, if someone just goes and gets Baptized because that is simply ‘what is done’… does Christ actually work through it? Or is it on hold until the participant realizes the Truth of it?

If I recall some Pharasees were called’ brood of vipers’ because they didn’t actually mean to reform their lives before being Baptized.

It matters greatly. According to the way I understand your question. Especially taking into account your example, by “intent” you mean someone who doesn’t really believe in the power of Christ working in the Sacrament. Take for instance, the Protestants, who say that the Sacrament of Baptism is merely a symbol.

I believe they are committing a blasphemy which Scripture says:
Mark 16:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

This is why the Church says that we must approach the Sacraments in the right “disposition”. Which, in my opinion, is a disposition of faith in the power of Christ working through the Sacraments and fulfilling His promises.

St. Paul refers to something similar in those who approach the Sacrament of Eucharist without truly believing in the Real Presence:

1 Corinthians 11:28-30
King James Version (KJV)
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

So, I believe, is the case with all the Sacraments. If anyone approaches them without believing in the great power that God works through them, they commit blasphemy. And if they reject them, they do the same:

Hebrews 10:25-31
King James Version (KJV)
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. 25 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[AnneElizabeth]

“Take for instance, the Protestants, who say that the Sacrament of Baptism is merely a symbol”

Do the Protestants really believe it is merely a symbol? Just wondering. I have no idea. I always thought they believed it was truly a means in which the Holy Spirit moved through.

 

[ltwin]

It matters greatly. According to the way I understand your question. Especially taking into account your example, by “intent” you mean someone who doesn’t really believe in the power of Christ working in the Sacrament. Take for instance, the Protestants, who say that the Sacrament of Baptism is merely a symbol.

I believe they are committing a blasphemy which Scripture says:
Mark 16:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

This is why the Church says that we must approach the Sacraments in the right “disposition”. Which, in my opinion, is a disposition of faith in the power of Christ working through the Sacraments and fulfilling His promises.

St. Paul refers to something similar in those who approach the Sacrament of Eucharist without truly believing in the Real Presence:

1 Corinthians 11:28-30
King James Version (KJV)
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

So, I believe, is the case with all the Sacraments. If anyone approaches them without believing in the great power that God works through them, they commit blasphemy. And if they reject them, they do the same:

Hebrews 10:25-31
King James Version (KJV)
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. 25 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Baptism does not justify. Christ justifies. Baptism is a sign. How silly to believe that someone is committing blasphemy by knowing that it is the power of Christ, not water that justifies. Certainly we never want to take anything away from baptism, but we need to realize that it is not baptism that makes one a Christian–it is knowing Christ and being known by Him. What we must believe to be saved is told to us in Romans 10:9-13,

. . . . . because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

The statement that you are justified by taking part in a sign is analogous to the early controversy over circumcision, about which Paul said in Romans 2:25-29,

For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law. For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

Likewise, justification is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit.

 

[asd72]

Would Noah and his family have been saved if they just believed in their heart that God would save them, but not actually entered the ark?

Would the Israelites been saved if they had believed in their heart that God would save them, but they refused to cross the red sea?

 

[ltwin]

Would Noah and his family have been saved if they just believed in their heart that God would save them, but not actually entered the ark?

Would the Israelites been saved if they had believed in their heart that God would save them, but they refused to cross the red sea?

Well of course, you have to obey God. If you believe in God, you will do what he says. Protestants practice baptism. We obey Jesus because we go throughout the world baptizing those who believe.

The original poster is saying that by simply believing that baptism is a symbol, we are denying the power of God and are blaspheming Him. So, because Protestants obey God by being baptized but we don’t share the particular theological fine print of Catholics, we are damned. Really?

 

[babs57]

“Take for instance, the Protestants, who say that the Sacrament of Baptism is merely a symbol”

Do the Protestants really believe it is merely a symbol? Just wondering. I have no idea. I always thought they believed it was truly a means in which the Holy Spirit moved through.

Yes, unfortunately.

Luther writes, “It is not baptism that justifies or benefits anyone, but it is faith in the word of promise to which baptism is added. This faith justifies and fulfills that which baptism signifies.” -The Babylonian Captivity of the Church

Luther truly believed that human nature was unchangebly degenerate. Nothing could cleanse us of our sins. Christ’s rightoeousness was imputed to us through His sacrafice. In other words, the righteousness is not really ours, but is His, and he covers us with it, so that we can sort of sneak into heaven beneath His clean white robes.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

I think I read in Catholic literature somewhere that a Baptism could later be denied by a once Catholic and therefore it would cease to hold any of its promise, unless they came back into the Church. Not sure where I read it though. Perhaps here on CAF?

 

[babs57]

Well of course, you have to obey God. If you believe in God, you will do what he says. Protestants practice baptism. We obey Jesus because we go throughout the world baptizing those who believe.

The original poster is saying that by simply believing that baptism is a symbol, we are denying the power of God and are blaspheming Him. So, because Protestants obey God by being baptized but we don’t share the particular theological fine print of Catholics, we are damned. Really?

What do you believe is the purpose of baptism?

 

[babs57]

I think I read in Catholic literature somewhere that a Baptism could later be denied by a once Catholic and therefore it would cease to hold any of its promise, unless they came back into the Church. Not sure where I read it though. Perhaps here on CAF?

What Catholics believe, is that we need GRACE to be saved. But we MUST CO-OPERATE with that grace. When we do good (faith working in love) (Gal 5:4-6) it is credited to us as righteousness, as it was for Abraham (Jms 2:23). When we sin, we fall away from that Grace, and we are “cut off” from the vine (Rom 11:21-22).

As for baptism, it is our re-birth “from above” (Jn 3:3). It is our entering into the family of God. Through Jesus, our brother, we “share in the divine nature” (2 Pet:4). We never lose that connection, because we believe that baptism really does change us. It sort of gives us the “DNA” of God’s family. We can never lose that, but we can reject it, or run away from home, so to speak.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

Baptism does not justify. Christ justifies. Baptism is a sign. How silly to believe that someone is committing blasphemy by knowing that it is the power of Christ, not water that justifies. Certainly we never want to take anything away from baptism, but we need to realize that it is not baptism that makes one a Christian–it is knowing Christ and being known by Him. What we must believe to be saved is told to us in Romans 10:9-13, .

Isn’t Itwin saying the same thing the Church does? A sacrament is a visible and outward signs of inward grace, instituted by Christ.

But what I would question Itwin is this: If Christ instituted it, and a person or baby received it even without knowing Christ very well, wouldn’t Christ bestow Himself with that person anyway? It is, after all, His Sacrament, that is something He instituted.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

Yes, unfortunately.

Luther writes, “It is not baptism that justifies or benefits anyone, but it is faith in the word of promise to which baptism is added. This faith justifies and fulfills that which baptism signifies.” -The Babylonian Captivity of the Church

Luther truly believed that human nature was unchangebly degenerate. Nothing could cleanse us of our sins. Christ’s rightoeousness was imputed to us through His sacrafice. In other words, the righteousness is not really ours, but is His, and he covers us with it, so that we can sort of sneak into heaven beneath His clean white robes.

Then this would not make sense (that is what Luther said) with the Scripture (Philippians 2:12) that says “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”… What would one have to fear then if all you had to do is believe? “Work out your own salvation” would seem to imply that we must DO something.

OH… but if we believe we are doing… because we believe. So how is that different from what the Protestants do? Still confused.

 

[asd72]

Well of course, you have to obey God. If you believe in God, you will do what he says. Protestants practice baptism. We obey Jesus because we go throughout the world baptizing those who believe.

The original poster is saying that by simply believing that baptism is a symbol, we are denying the power of God and are blaspheming Him. So, because Protestants obey God by being baptized but we don’t share the particular theological fine print of Catholics, we are damned. Really?

ewtn.com/library/doctrine/sacramen.txt

 

[ltwin]

What do you believe is the purpose of baptism?

It signifies and represents death and life in Christ. It is an outward sign of an inward work. When someone is converted to the Christian faith, they should be baptized immediately----just as when a person dies preparation begins immediately for their burial, so it is when a person is converted and dies to sin and his old life preparation should begin immediately to bury the old sinful life. Baptism indicates the beginning of a new direction for life, “a newness of life” (Romans 6:4).

The purposes of baptism:

1. It gives public witness to our identification with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection. The “old man” is symbolically buried in a watery grave. Water baptism proclaims the Gospel. It attests to forgiveness and cleansing from sin. It is a declaration that as a child of God, the believer is uniting with Christ and his body, the Church.
2. It declares allegiance to Christ.
3. Water baptism indicates the seriousness of our commitment to Jesus Christ. It is the visible sign that seals the spiritual commitment. It affirms our salvation—that we are born again, dead to sin, alive in Him, and now free to “walk in newness of life” (Romans 6:4). We pledge to God that we will live for Him. It gives the convert something to live up to.
4. Finally, water baptism is an act of obedience to our newfound Savior and Lord. Obedience is the first lesson a Christian must learn. God’s abundant blessings follow obedience to this commandment of the Lord Jesus.

Therefore, baptism is not meaningless for Protestants. We all need the spiritual strengthening that comes from baptism, and all the other means of grace.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

Aren’t y’all sayin’ the same thing!!!

so confused… !!!

 

[ltwin]

Then this would not make sense (that is what Luther said) with the Scripture (Philippians 2:12) that says “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”… What would one have to fear then if all you had to do is believe? “Work out your own salvation” would seem to imply that we must DO something.

OH… but if we believe we are doing… because we believe. So how is that different from what the Protestants do? Still confused.

Protestants generally believe that works flow from a life of faith. Faith must be their first. It is faith in Christ that leads to someone doing good works. Works are a sign of faith. “Faith without works is dead.” If someone claims to have faith, but has no works, then their faith is suspect.

Rather than “faith and works,” I think most Protestants would say living faith evidenced by works.

 

[babs57]

It signifies and represents death and life in Christ. It is an outward sign of an inward work. When someone is converted to the Christian faith, they should be baptized immediately----just as when a person dies preparation begins immediately for their burial, so it is when a person is converted and dies to sin and his old life preparation should begin immediately to bury the old sinful life. Baptism indicates the beginning of a new direction for life, “a newness of life” (Romans 6:4).

The purposes of baptism:

1. It gives public witness to our identification with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection. The “old man” is symbolically buried in a watery grave. Water baptism proclaims the Gospel. It attests to forgiveness and cleansing from sin. It is a declaration that as a child of God, the believer is uniting with Christ and his body, the Church.
2. It declares allegiance to Christ.
3. Water baptism indicates the seriousness of our commitment to Jesus Christ. It is the visible sign that seals the spiritual commitment. It affirms our salvation—that we are born again, dead to sin, alive in Him, and now free to “walk in newness of life” (Romans 6:4). We pledge to God that we will live for Him. It gives the convert something to live up to.
4. Finally, water baptism is an act of obedience to our newfound Savior and Lord. Obedience is the first lesson a Christian must learn. God’s abundant blessings follow obedience to this commandment of the Lord Jesus.

Therefore, baptism is not meaningless for Protestants. We all need the spiritual strengthening that comes from baptism, and all the other means of grace.

Thank you for putting it so beautifully. You seem like such a spiritual person.

We believe that it is more than a declaration. It actually effects an inward change, freeing us from the stain of Adam’s sin, and making us heirs to the kingdom. It is Grace that does this. We believe that God’s Grace ACTS through His Sacraments.

We also believe that we can refuse our inheritance, sort of like Esau did.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

Protestants generally believe that works flow from a life of faith. Faith must be their first. It is faith in Christ that leads to someone doing good works. Works are a sign of faith. “Faith without works is dead.” If someone claims to have faith, but has no works, then their faith is suspect.

Rather than “faith and works,” I think most Protestants would say living faith evidenced by works.

This is what I believe too… so why am I Catholic???

…not trying to be facetious either.

 

[ltwin]

Thank you for putting it so beautifully. You seem like such a spiritual person.

We believe that it is more than a declaration. It actually effects an inward change, freeing us from the stain of Adam’s sin, and making us heirs to the kingdom. It is Grace that does this. We believe that God’s Grace ACTS through His Sacraments.

We also believe that we can refuse our inheritance, sort of like Esau did.

So, do you believe as the OP that Protestants who believe baptism is symbolic are committing blasphemy and (I assume from the posts) damned, even if baptized?