If we are not justified in Baptism...Then Christ died in vain

[De_Maria]

Then this would not make sense (that is what Luther said) with the Scripture (Philippians 2:12) that says “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”… What would one have to fear then if all you had to do is believe? “Work out your own salvation” would seem to imply that we must DO something.

Absolutely! As St. Paul also says:
Romans 2:13
King James Version (KJV)
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God,** but the doers of the law shall be justified.**

OH… but if we believe we are doing… because we believe. So how is that different from what the Protestants do? Still confused.

Protestants believe they do good because they are saved.

Difference between Protestant and Catholic Soteriology:
Protestant-good works flow from salvation;
Catholic-good works flow from faith.

Now, let us consider the epitome of the justified man, Abraham. Was he justified because of faith alone?

If that were so, then he would have been justified in Gen 12, when he left Ur. St. Paul says that is when Abraham first exercised faith in God:
Hebrews 11:8
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

But no. Abraham was justified after obeying God’s word and leaving Ur and doing many other things which God commanded. That is why Scripture also says:
Genesis 15:6
King James Version (KJV)
6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

and even then, his justification is not complete. As St. James says that his justification was not completely fulfilled until Genesis 22:18:
James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Genesis 22:16-18
King James Version (KJV)
16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

I hope that helps.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Protestants generally believe that works flow from a life of faith.

Some, but the majority with which I’ve spoken say that works flow from salvation.

Faith must be their first. It is faith in Christ that leads to someone doing good works.

That is Catholic Teaching.

Works are a sign of faith. “Faith without works is dead.” If someone claims to have faith, but has no works, then their faith is suspect.

Absolutely.

Rather than “faith and works,” I think most Protestants would say living faith evidenced by works.

That is not my experience. Most Protestants with which I’ve spoken, and I’ve been speaking to them for nearly twenty years now, say that they are justified by faith alone.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

This is what I believe too… so why am I Catholic???

Hopefully because you know that the Catholic Church is the true Church of Jesus Christ, which He established on this earth:
Scripture says that the Church teaches the Wisdom of God:

Ephesians 3:10
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Is God’s Wisdom infallible? I say yes.

Is there really any need to say more? I don’t think so. But there is more.

Scripture says that the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth:
1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

God is here saying that the Church always upholds the truth. I believe God. Therefore, I conclude that the Church is infallible.

Scripture says:
Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Here the Church is depicted as keeping hell in a state of seige. And further it is said that hell will never prevail against the Church. If the Church committed errors in the mission given her by God, then the gates of hell would have prevailed.

God says that won’t happen. I believe God. Therefore, I conclude that the Church is infallible.

But is this the Catholic Church?

I believe the Church described in Scripture is the Catholic Church, yes.

First, Jesus Christ appointed a Pastor as head of the entire Church:
John 21:17
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

I see only a few Churches with such a Pastor. Further, Jesus Christ said that the Pastor over His Church would be infallible:

Matthew 16:17-19 (King James Version)
17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

The list of Churches accept this teaching gets smaller. Certainly, all Protestant denominations can now be eliminated.

Jesus Christ not only said that the Pastor was infallible but Scripture describes the Church as infallible:
Ephesians 3:10
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

The list remains the same, but now I can certainly eliminate all Protestant denominations.

Back to Matt 16:18, Scripture says that Jesus Christ established one Church. History shows that all the Churches sprang from the Church which is frequently described as the Mother Church. The Catholic Church.

By simple logic of elimination, that leaves only the Catholic Church. Further, the Catholic Church can produce records tracing back to Apostolic times.

Therefore, I conclude that it is the Catholic Church which is described in Scripture.

…not trying to be facetious either.

Its a commonly asked question. The advantage of a Catholic and an Orthodox over every other non-Sacramental religion, is the Sacraments.

In the Sacraments, we are washed in the living water of the Holy Spirit and become children of God. Those Christians who deny the Sacraments must await the Final Judgment before they can walk with the Saints in heaven. Whereas, Sacramental Christians walk upon Mt. Sion, right now, in this life.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

I’m not sure.

I’ve been with Protestants that seem more “full” than most Catholics I’ve met. Some of them don’t even have the luxury of the Sacrament of Confession and somehow manage not to go nuts worrying if they die before they get the absolution they will go to hell. I think that says alot about having a “fullness” of faith…

How many Catholics do you know who go nuts about that?

What is harder? Which provides more faith building? …

A.) I’m going to trust God still loves me even though I’ve sinned and I hope not to do it again,…

or…

B.)I know I sinned mortally by not going to Mass, even though I’m not sure I believe I should be going there-

I suggest you learn the value and meaning of the Mass and learn that to skip the Mass is a sacriligious insult to our Lord and His Sacrifice for our salvation:
Hebrews 10:25-31
King James Version (KJV)
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

yet this means God has cut me off

If you are skipping the Mass, you are cutting yourself off of the grace of God which He died in order to provide for you.

and I better go back to doing something I’m not sure I should be doing (confession

Yes, you should. Do you not see confession described in this verse?

Hebrews 13:17
King James Version (KJV)
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

In confession we submit to and obey the Priest who is in charge of and accounts for our soul. Submitting to confession is profitable for you in respect of salvation.

and Mass) so that I will not go to hell because it takes the priest to clear me of that sin. ???

The Priest is the ambassador of Christ:
2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Do you not know that confession is also called the ministry of reconciliation? Do you think it a mere coincidence that it is mentioned in this verse?

When I wasn’t an unsure catholic, I was pretty sure it is both A. and B. that is really Catholic. However, it seems to me that Protestants do a better job of following the Lord, because that is all of WHO they have to go to. None of this worrying about if what a priest said was wrong. Its harder and takes more courage to have to pray an issue out and just trust. That’s why Protestants have my utter respect.

You are saying that because, as a Protestant would say, you do not know the Word of God.

Scripture tells you NOT to lean upon your own understanding:
Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Scripture tells you to obey the Church or be cast out:
Matthew 18:17
King James Version (KJV)
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Hebrews 13:17
King James Version (KJV)
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you

Scripture tells you to attend the Mass as I mentioned before (Heb 10:25-31).

Sorry. I understand what you say, because I do believe and love the “fullness” of the Catholic faith… but then again… I don’t understand it. Its like the difference of being in Galilee and then in Jerusalem for me. One’s got all the goods at their fingertips, the other has to rely on God to make do with what they have.

Be assured, you don’t need to understand what the Church teaches. But you need to have faith in Christ and believe. Believing does not mean understanding. We step in faith, not by sight.

Come back to the Catholic Church. You will be blessed.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Protestants confess their sins. However, they don’t go to a priest to do it. We pray to God directly for forgiveness of our sins.

So do Catholics. But we also go to the Sacrament of Confession in order that our souls be washed of our sins in this life. That is the benefit of the Sacrament.

Whether you’re Catholic or Protestant, confession is a must.

Very true. Because without repentance, there is no salvation.

Yes, I realize this. I didn’t mean to infer that you would not have gone to Christ in prayer to confess. I should have cleared that up, but thanks for doing so.

What you don’t realize is that they “think” they are confessing to God. But in fact, they are not. They are simply recounting to themselves their own guilt.

One does not need to confess in order for God to know that they are truly repentant. God is omniscient. The benefit of the Sacrament of Confession is in the CONFIRMATION by the Minister of God that God has heard the repentant sinner and washed away their sin.

This is the doctrine of Baptisms. Every Sacrament is a Baptism.
Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

The Protestant who denies the benefit of the Sacrament of confession, has, by his unbelief, condemned himself.

But he that approaches the founts of grace, the Sacraments, including Confession, with sincere belief that God can do through that Sacrament what He promised, that man is saved.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Baptism does not justify.

Christ justifies through Baptism. Do you, like Naaman, deny that God can work through the water?

2 Kings 5:10-12
King James Version (KJV)
10 And Elisha sent a messenger unto him, saying, Go and wash in Jordan seven times, and thy flesh shall come again to thee, and thou shalt be clean. 11 But Naaman was wroth, and went away, and said, Behold, I thought, He will surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of the Lord his God, and strike his hand over the place, and recover the leper. 12 Are not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? may I not wash in them, and be clean? So he turned and went away in a rage.

And yet God can even heal through the mud:
John 9:11
He answered and said, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed mine eyes, and said unto me, Go to the pool of Siloam, and wash: and I went and washed, and I received sight.

Christ justifies

Through Baptism.

Baptism is a sign.

It is an effective sign which accomplishes what it signifies by the Power of God.

How silly to believe that someone is committing blasphemy by knowing that it is the power of Christ, not water that justifies.

How silly to make that claim. We know that it is Christ working through the Sacrament. That is the Catholic Teaching:
1127 Celebrated worthily in faith, the sacraments confer the grace that they signify. They are efficacious **because in them Christ himself is at work: **it is he who baptizes, he who acts in his sacraments in order to communicate the grace that each sacrament signifies. The Father always hears the prayer of his Son’s Church which, in the epiclesis of each sacrament, expresses her faith in the power of the Spirit. As fire transforms into itself everything it touches, so the Holy Spirit transforms into the divine life whatever is subjected to his power.

But Christ has connected justification and the water by the Word. Therefore, the Sacrament is efficacious:
Ephesians 5:26
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Certainly we never want to take anything away from baptism,

But you have already in declaring your unbelief that God can use the water to wash away our sins:

Mark 16:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

but we need to realize that it is not baptism that makes one a Christian–it is knowing Christ and being known by Him.

It is both. Christ has established so that we can know that we are washed of the Spirit and born again children of God:
John 3:2-5
King James Version (KJV)
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

What we must believe to be saved is told to us in Romans 10:9-13,

Romans 10:9-13
King James Version (KJV)
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Belief doesn’t mean “claiming faith”. Belief means putting God’s words into practice:
Matthew 7:21-28
King James Version (KJV)
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. 28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

The statement that you are justified by taking part in a sign is analogous to the early controversy over circumcision, about which Paul said in Romans 2:25-29,

That’s the meaning of Mark 16:16. Any man who is baptized but does not believe in the power of Christ which is poured forth in this sacrament has condemned himself. If a person is baptized who does not believe in Christ, that person has condemned himself.

But let’s examine that verse:

Romans 2:25-29
King James Version (KJV)
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? 28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Note that there is a spiritual circumcision. What does St. Paul say that is?

Colossians 2:10-12
King James Version (KJV)
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Spiritual circumcision is accomplished in Baptism. As Scripture clearly illustrates.

Likewise, justification is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit.

Absolutely! It is in Baptism that we are washed and regenerated by the Spirit of God:
Titus 3:5
King James Version (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Isn’t Itwin saying the same thing the Church does? A sacrament is a visible and outward signs of inward grace, instituted by Christ.

But what I would question Itwin is this: If Christ instituted it, and a person or baby received it even without knowing Christ very well, wouldn’t Christ bestow Himself with that person anyway? It is, after all, His Sacrament, that is something He instituted.

The justification of infants by Baptism is a separate question. Infants are justified by the faith of their parents:

Matthew 15:28
Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

This child was cured by the faith of the parent.

Note what Jesus says about which is more difficult, to cure illness or to forgive sins:

Matthew 9:4-6
King James Version (KJV)
4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?

6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

In other words, Christ forgives sins as easily as He cures illness. And therefore, there is no obstacle in Baptism to keep Christ from washing away the original sin of an infant by the faith of the parent or simply by the faith of the Church.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Well of course, you have to obey God. If you believe in God, you will do what he says. Protestants practice baptism. We obey Jesus because we go throughout the world baptizing those who believe.

The original poster is saying that by simply believing that baptism is a symbol, we are denying the power of God and are blaspheming Him. So, because Protestants obey God by being baptized but we don’t share the particular theological fine print of Catholics, we are damned. Really?

It is in Scripture. Do you believe the Word of God or not?

Mark 16:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Do you believe that your sins are washed away in Baptism or not?
Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

They blaspheme the Spirit of God who claim that God can’t wash away their sins by the pouring of water.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[ltwin]

Some, but the majority with which I’ve spoken say that works flow from salvation.

To have true faith is to be saved. Many Protestants use the language of salvation (“I am saved”; “Are you saved?”) as a short hand for speaking of faith in Christ. To have faith in Christ is to be saved. True faith will be evidenced by a change in heart and life. From this conversion and growth in grace flows good works.

That is Catholic Teaching.

It is also Protestant teaching.

That is not my experience. Most Protestants with which I’ve spoken, and I’ve been speaking to them for nearly twenty years now, say that they are justified by faith alone.

Exactly. Faith alone. But what is true faith? What does it mean for someone to truly believe in Jesus. Well for starters, we will see a true conversion of heart and life growing out of that faith. If we do not see good works present in someone’s life, we cannot say with confidence that their faith is genuine.

So Faith Alone. But a living faith. It must produce good fruit. “You shall know them by their fruit.” So works follow faith. True faith will produce good works. Or to use the salvation terminology, a person who is really saved will do good works.

What you don’t realize is that they “think” they are confessing to God. But in fact, they are not. They are simply recounting to themselves their own guilt.

One does not need to confess in order for God to know that they are truly repentant. God is omniscient. The benefit of the Sacrament of Confession is in the CONFIRMATION by the Minister of God that God has heard the repentant sinner and washed away their sin.

This is the doctrine of Baptisms. Every Sacrament is a Baptism.
Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

The Protestant who denies the benefit of the Sacrament of confession, has, by his unbelief, condemned himself.

But he that approaches the founts of grace, the Sacraments, including Confession, with sincere belief that God can do through that Sacrament what He promised, that man is saved.

But we already have “CONFIRMATION” by God that he hears “the repentant sinner and washed away their sin.” We have this confirmation by warrant of Scripture: “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9) What other confirmation is needed?

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

To have true faith is to be saved. Many Protestants use the language of salvation (“I am saved”; “Are you saved?”) as a short hand for speaking of faith in Christ. To have faith in Christ is to be saved. True faith will be evidenced by a change in heart and life. From this conversion and growth in grace flows good works.

Exactly. Faith alone. But what is true faith? What does it mean for someone to truly believe in Jesus. Well for starters, we will see a true conversion of heart and life growing out of that faith. If we do not see good works present in someone’s life, we cannot say with confidence that their faith is genuine.

So Faith Alone. But a living faith. It must produce good fruit. “You shall know them by their fruit.” So works follow faith. True faith will produce good works. Or to use the salvation terminology, a person who is really saved will do good works.

The problem with what you refer to a “true faith” is that you never really know. I know atheists who go and do good works, so that is hardly “true” evidence.

Take for example a pentecostal pastor who has led a congregation for years and then commits a heinous crime. What must the congregation conclude from his sin? That the pastor was just as saved as his congregants, who would have been embarrassed to attend a movie less than PG? You would have to say that he was if he followed your interpretation of the Bible, and even if his experience of salvation had come years before, even if his last years had been ones of perversity.

Naturally if it was me I would wonder if he was ever saved at all. No matter what the theory might be, it would be a plague on my mind at least that a saved person would sin at all. It would be the same as a Catholic wondering if his parish priest was ever validly ordained, because a man, no matter how perfectly he goes through the motions of the Mass, cannot confect the sacraments. A pentecostal pastor who himself was never saved-that’s a disturbing thought.

But you must either draw one of two conclusions: 1)either this pastor was never saved although everyone believed he was(which means that you can never really tell who is saved just by outward acions), or 2) that he was saved and can now sin with impunity.

But this is repulsive to our moral convictions. A pastor known for years would be presumed saved; if the congregation can be fooled. couldn’t the pastor have fooled himself as well? If he, with all his religious training, thought he was born again when he was not, how can the average pentecostal/fundamentalist who believes in your notion of “true faith” know if your conversion “took”?

There is another way, a way to objectively “know” that you are saved. It requires faith-which itself is a grace given us by God. Faith IS essential, but it is not “faith alone.” Faith is the beginning, it is our acceptance of God’s love for us in Christ, but we must do more to respond to that God’s love.

Jesus was “put to death for our trangressions & raised for our justification”(Rom 4:25). We are justified through His death, therefore we must enter into His death. We enter into His death through baptism(Rom 6; Col 2:11-12), and are therefore justified through baptism by being raised with Him and incorporated into His body-the Church.

We do not “buy” salvation or justification by acting out a ritual washing. We are bapized because though it we are saved(1 Pet 3:21). Baptism is a work of God in cooperation with those who minister in Christ’s name.

Baptism does justify, and if you affirm that God can manifets his power however He wills, then how can you reasonably persist in disbelief?

 

[AbideWithMe]

The problem with what you refer to a “true faith” is that you never really know. I know atheists who go and do good works, so that is hardly “true” evidence.

Take for example a pentecostal pastor who has led a congregation for years and then commits a heinous crime. What must the congregation conclude from his sin?

From an Evangelical perspective, what the congregation can conclude is that the pastor, like any other human being, needs to repent and ask forgiveness of God, and seek to turn from his sin through a restored and healed relationship with his Father.

 

[ltwin]

The problem with what you refer to a “true faith” is that you never really know. I know atheists who go and do good works, so that is hardly “true” evidence.

It is not our job to examine other people’s lifestyle and determine if they are truly saved. None of us are competent to do that. We can draw some insight into a person’s spiritual condition by observing their life, but we are far from able to determine whether someone is “saved.” People must “work out their own salvation with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:12).

Take for example a pentecostal pastor who has led a congregation for years and then commits a heinous crime. What must the congregation conclude from his sin?

First, that we are all sinners, and we all fall short of the glory of God. Second, we should never place any man on a pedestal, even ministers of the Gospel. Third, there are two possible conclusions we could reach about this pastor’s spiritual state. (1) He was never saved or he was saved at one time but had fallen into a backslidden state. In such a situation, we recognize that, as Jesus said, the wheat and the weeds will grow together until the harvest time. (2) The pastor never lost faith in Christ, but simply fell into the weakness of the flesh that we are all susceptible to as humans.

That the pastor was just as saved as his congregants, who would have been embarrassed to attend a movie less than PG?

I would not attempt to discover whether he was or was not saved prior to the commission of a crime. I would instead focus on reaching out to him in love and do all that could to encourage and promote repentance and reconciliation with God.

You would have to say that he was if he followed your interpretation of the Bible, and even if his experience of salvation had come years before, even if his last years had been ones of perversity.

No. I would never say that someone is saved because they “follow my interpretation of the Bible.” Someone is saved through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. A conversion experience is the beginning of living a Christian life. It is the start of the journey, not the end. How we finish the race is much more important than how we start it.

Naturally if it was me I would wonder if he was ever saved at all. No matter what the theory might be, it would be a plague on my mind at least that a saved person would sin at all. It would be the same as a Catholic wondering if his parish priest was ever validly ordained, because a man, no matter how perfectly he goes through the motions of the Mass, cannot confect the sacraments. A pentecostal pastor who himself was never saved-that’s a disturbing thought.

Yes, it is. But that is not our concern. I cited Matthew 13 above, and it is true. The wheat and the weeds will grow together until the harvest when everything will be sorted out.

But you must either draw one of two conclusions: 1)either this pastor was never saved although everyone believed he was(which means that you can never really tell who is saved just by outward acions), or 2) that he was saved and can now sin with impunity.

Or that he needs to work out his salvation by repenting of his sin and allowing the Holy Spirit to transform his life, something we must all do.

But this is repulsive to our moral convictions. A pastor known for years would be presumed saved; if the congregation can be fooled. couldn’t the pastor have fooled himself as well? If he, with all his religious training, thought he was born again when he was not, how can the average pentecostal/fundamentalist who believes in your notion of “true faith” know if your conversion “took”?

It’s a matter of faith in God’s word, his grace, and the witness of the Spirit. “The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God” (Romans 8:16). As Pentecostals would say, “I know that I know that I know.” This is a matter of faith and humbly trusting God.

(Continued in next post)

 

[ltwin]

(Continued from previous post)

There is another way, a way to objectively “know” that you are saved. It requires faith-which itself is a grace given us by God. Faith IS essential, but it is not “faith alone.” Faith is the beginning, it is our acceptance of God’s love for us in Christ, but we must do more to respond to that God’s love.

Jesus was “put to death for our trangressions & raised for our justification”(Rom 4:25). We are justified through His death, therefore we must enter into His death. We enter into His death through baptism(Rom 6; Col 2:11-12), and are therefore justified through baptism by being raised with Him and incorporated into His body-the Church.

We do not “buy” salvation or justification by acting out a ritual washing. We are bapized because though it we are saved(1 Pet 3:21). Baptism is a work of God in cooperation with those who minister in Christ’s name.

Baptism does justify, and if you affirm that God can manifets his power however He wills, then how can you reasonably persist in disbelief?

Even if you accept that baptism is regenerative, the final outcome is of who is saved or not is God’s will, no? You would not say that a Catholic who was baptized as an infant, raised in the Catholic Church, and then grew up to be a murderer never repenting of his sin is saved by virtue of baptism?

Well, neither do Pentecostals on the basis of someone’s testimony of faith in Christ and outward life. None of us knows the heart of another person. Only God can know that. Good works are a product of faith. That doesn’t mean that they “prove” someone is saved, that would be works salvation. It simply means that where there is faith there will be good works, holiness of life, etc. And as we grow in our relationship with Christ, we are transformed from glory to glory.

 

[AbideWithMe]

It is not our job to examine other people’s lifestyle and determine if they are truly saved. None of us are competent to do that. We can draw some insight into a person’s spiritual condition by observing their life, but we are far from able to determine whether someone is “saved.” People must “work out their own salvation with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:12).

First, that we are all sinners, and we all fall short of the glory of God. Second, we should never place any man on a pedestal, even ministers of the Gospel. Third, there are two possible conclusions we could reach about this pastor’s spiritual state. (1) He was never saved or he was saved at one time but had fallen into a backslidden state. In such a situation, we recognize that, as Jesus said, the wheat and the weeds will grow together until the harvest time. (2) The pastor never lost faith in Christ, but simply fell into the weakness of the flesh that we are all susceptible to as humans.

I would not attempt to discover whether he was or was not saved prior to the commission of a crime. I would instead focus on reaching out to him in love and do all that could to encourage and promote repentance and reconciliation with God.

No. I would never say that someone is saved because they “follow my interpretation of the Bible.” Someone is saved through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. A conversion experience is the beginning of living a Christian life. It is the start of the journey, not the end. How we finish the race is much more important than how we start it.

Yes, it is. But that is not our concern. I cited Matthew 13 above, and it is true. The wheat and the weeds will grow together until the harvest when everything will be sorted out.

Or that he needs to work out his salvation by repenting of his sin and allowing the Holy Spirit to transform his life, something we must all do.

It’s a matter of faith in God’s word, his grace, and the witness of the Spirit. “The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God” (Romans 8:16). As Pentecostals would say, “I know that I know that I know.” This is a matter of faith and humbly trusting God.

(Continued in next post)

Well said.

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

(Continued from previous post)

Even if you accept that baptism is regenerative, the final outcome is of who is saved or not is God’s will, no? You would not say that a Catholic who was baptized as an infant, raised in the Catholic Church, and then grew up to be a murderer never repenting of his sin is saved by virtue of baptism?

This is where the Church and I differ from you. The issue isn’t that baptism “saves” as in the “believer’s baptism” of many pentecostal/fundamentalist circles I have experienced, the issue is that whether or not baptism justifies-makes one “right with God” and incorporates one into Christ. According to my understanding, and the history of Christianity, the Bible is clear that it does.

Will a Catholic, raised in the Church, who then later commits murder without confession be saved, of course not! But will a person who committed murder, who then repents, and is Baptized into the Church before his execution be saved? Absolutely. If he repents and is not baptized? The Bible says no; hence it is Christ’s baptism that justifies and enters one into a covenant relationship with God. Without baptism, well, as they say, “words are wind.”

Well, neither do Pentecostals on the basis of someone’s testimony of faith in Christ and outward life. None of us knows the heart of another person. Only God can know that. Good works are a product of faith. That doesn’t mean that they “prove” someone is saved, that would be works salvation.

It seems that you are different than many pentecostals I have encountered, and this I am thankful for.

Biblically speakng James seems to disagree with you and tat there is no false dichotomy here. You ay either we can demonstrate our faith though our works(James 2) or, as you say, we can’t and by doing so it is a “works salvation”.

Yet if I show my faith in God’s love for me in Christ (which IS the basic definition of faith) by loving my neighbor for God’s sake, how is that a “works salvation”? ** I’m not basing my salvation on my own work-loving my neighbor- but rather on my faith in God’s love.** The work I do to demonstrate this faith is God’s grace, any merit from this work is due to God’s grace and for his glory. The “proof” is that, like silver in the fire, the person through faith and by works becomes a reflection of the Savior. Faith is the beginning and is essential, but it is also the works-the works of love, our cooperation with God’s grace, that actually removes the dross and by which we are refined. Because God is a loving Father and not a tyrant He will not refine us against our will. We must submit ourselves to Him for refinement, that is also from faith.

So as baptism initially justifies us our continued faith and works through faith continue to increase our faith and our life of grace(which includes participation in the other sacraments)-this is what we call sanctification.

It simply means that where there is faith there will be good works, holiness of life, etc. And as we grow in our relationship with Christ, we are transformed from glory to glory.

Oh, I agree totally that we are transformed from glory to glory. For the fulness of this you should read “Fire Within” by Fr. Thomas DuBay. It is baed on the lives of two spiritual giants of Christianity: Sts. Theresa of Avila and John of the Cross.

Sadly protestantism mostly ignores much of Christianity prior to the Reformation merely for prejudicial reasons.

As far as your comments in your previous post I do appreciate them a lot, it seems by my reading and understanding that you are close to the Kingdom my friend.

God Bless, Mithrandir.

 

[ltwin]

This is where the Church and I differ from you. The issue isn’t that baptism “saves” as in the “believer’s baptism” of many pentecostal/fundamentalist circles I have experienced,

I may be misunderstanding what you are trying to say, but I want to clear something up. Pentecostals do believe in believer’s baptism. Pentecostals do not believe that any baptism (believer or infant) saves or regenerates.

the issue is that whether or not baptism justifies-makes one “right with God” and incorporates one into Christ. According to my understanding, and the history of Christianity, the Bible is clear that it does.

Thanks for this. This is an important clarification. I obvious don’t agree, but it does make the Catholic viewpoint clearer.

Will a Catholic, raised in the Church, who then later commits murder without confession be saved, of course not! But will a person who committed murder, who then repents, and is Baptized into the Church before his execution be saved? Absolutely. If he repents and is not baptized? The Bible says no; hence it is Christ’s baptism that justifies and enters one into a covenant relationship with God. Without baptism, well, as they say, “words are wind.”

Interesting.

It seems that you are different than many pentecostals I have encountered, and this I am thankful for.

Really? How many Pentecostals have you encountered? There are some of us who get sort of legalistic, and I suppose that gives the rest of us a bad rap; however, it is not a feature of our theology that humans can know if other people are saved or not.

This often becomes an issue when pastors are required to preach at funerals. It is frowned on to try to “preach someone into heaven,” by which we mean suggesting that someone has definitively made it to heaven. While this might bring comfort to the family, it is beyond our knowledge, and therefore, not something we can say. We can certainly take comfort from knowing that loved ones testified to knowing Christ as their Lord and Savior, but we can never truly know what is in a person’s heart.

Biblically speakng James seems to disagree with you and tat there is no false dichotomy here. You ay either we can demonstrate our faith though our works(James 2) or, as you say, we can’t and by doing so it is a “works salvation”.

Yet if I show my faith in God’s love for me in Christ (which IS the basic definition of faith) by loving my neighbor for God’s sake, how is that a “works salvation”? ** I’m not basing my salvation on my own work-loving my neighbor- but rather on my faith in God’s love.** The work I do to demonstrate this faith is God’s grace, any merit from this work is due to God’s grace and for his glory. The “proof” is that, like silver in the fire, the person through faith and by works becomes a reflection of the Savior. Faith is the beginning and is essential, but it is also the works-the works of love, our cooperation with God’s grace, that actually removes the dross and by which we are refined. Because God is a loving Father and not a tyrant He will not refine us against our will. We must submit ourselves to Him for refinement, that is also from faith.

I don’t think we disagree. James says, “So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.” That is what I have said earlier. To have a dead faith is to have a useless faith. He goes on to say, “Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” I agree. I think where disagree is the Protestant doctrine of faith alone.

So as baptism initially justifies us our continued faith and works through faith continue to increase our faith and our life of grace(which includes participation in the other sacraments)-this is what we call sanctification.

I would amend this paragraph only slightly to say, “So as faith initially justifies us our continued faith from which flow works continue to increase our faith and our life of grace-this is what we call sanctification.” Yes, Pentecostals believe in sanctification as well.

Oh, I agree totally that we are transformed from glory to glory. For the fulness of this you should read “Fire Within” by Fr. Thomas DuBay. It is baed on the lives of two spiritual giants of Christianity: Sts. Theresa of Avila and John of the Cross.

I’ll look into it.

 

[De_Maria]

To have true faith is to be saved.

True. Who is the judge of true faith, you or God?

Many Protestants use the language of salvation (“I am saved”; “Are you saved?”) as a short hand for speaking of faith in Christ. To have faith in Christ is to be saved. True faith will be evidenced by a change in heart and life. From this conversion and growth in grace flows good works.

One difference. They claim faith ALONE saves. Whereas Scripture says differently:

Salvation is granted to they who OBEY Christ:
Hebrews 5:9
King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Whereas, one is not even justified by faith ALONE.
James 2:24
King James Version (KJV)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Much less is one saved by faith ALONE.

It is also Protestant teaching.

That depends on the Protestant. There are some Protestants which hold the Catholic Teaching. But, for the most part, they deny the Catholic Teaching and call it blasphemous.

Exactly. Faith alone. But what is true faith? What does it mean for someone to truly believe in Jesus. Well for starters, we will see a true conversion of heart and life growing out of that faith. If we do not see good works present in someone’s life, we cannot say with confidence that their faith is genuine.

So Faith Alone. But a living faith. It must produce good fruit. “You shall know them by their fruit.” So works follow faith. True faith will produce good works. Or to use the salvation terminology, a person who is really saved will do good works.

You contradict Scripture and Catholic doctrine and then confirm Scripture and Catholic doctrine in one fell swoop.

First, faith, if it is accompanied by the fruits it produces, is not alone. That confirms the Catholic doctrine and the Scripture.
Second, true faith produces good works and salvation follows. Here it is, in Scripture:
James 2:14
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

The implication is obvious. Faith, without works, faith unaccompanied by works, faith alone, can not save. Period. The end.

Whereas, faith which produces good works, does save. You have said so. That is the Catholic Teaching.

But we already have “CONFIRMATION” by God that he hears “the repentant sinner and washed away their sin.” We have this confirmation by warrant of Scripture: “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9) What other confirmation is needed?

Are you making an entire theology out of one verse? Scripture tells you what else is needed. Baptism (Mark 16:16). And after, Confession (Heb 13:17) and throughout your life, good works (Matt 25:31-46). Do you take one verse and discard the rest of the Gospel?

Why? That is why you need the Church. The Church understands the Word of God and explains it infallibly to all:

Ephesians 3:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

From an Evangelical perspective, what the congregation can conclude is that the pastor, like any other human being, needs to repent and ask forgiveness of God, and seek to turn from his sin through a restored and healed relationship with his Father.

1. That brings us back to the Catholic Teaching of faith and works. A minister who sins has proclaimed faith but in his works denied Our Lord.

A minister who repents of his sins, has in his works, proved his faith.

1. Your explanation ignores the teaching of absolute security wherein, Evangelicals claim that one who is saved will not fall away.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[ltwin]

1. Your explanation ignores the teaching of absolute security wherein, Evangelicals claim that one who is saved will not fall away.

Your explanations betray your ignorance of the different views that evangelicals have on eternal security. Not all evangelicals believe in what you are claiming they believe. Therefore, when I and other posters articulate a very evangelical understanding of salvation, faith, and works, you are confused because it looks very similar to Catholic teaching, and yet it contradicts what you’ve come to think the “evangelical” position is.

I find that the Catholics on this forum tend to believe that all evangelicals believe in Once Saved Always Saved, and that is a universally held doctrine among evangelical churches. It is not, and many, many evangelicals find it an abhorrent theology.