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snarflemike
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As James 2 reports, even demons believe. So why aren’t demons saved?
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Equites_Christi
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Bazinga.
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Trebor135
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Because they don’t have a saving faith. Belief or trust alone doesn’t suffice; love is necessary too.
It’s very clever how Protestants smuggle love into their definition of faith, eh?
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RedDuke50
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Wow, that is a good point. 
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ahs
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Very good point! Adam and Eve believed in God as well, and I think you could say they had “loving faith”…otherwise they would not have been ashamed of the sin…no?
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robertericleech
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A priest once explained that Satan and the disobedient angels (demons) who followed him are spiritual beings, who exist outside of time and space. Since they do not have physical bodies and are not subject to what WE experience as ‘time’, they are not subject to physical death, and their choice was an eternal one which can’t be repented. Hence they can’t be saved by an act of faith. Also they do not need faith because they see God as He is, yet still chose/choose to stay separate and disobedient.
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Trebor135
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But if they had the chance to make a decision once, as if they were in time, then why not twice?
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robertericleech
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I don’t know…maybe the angels only got one choice when they were created, then that was that…
I only got to choose one wife, haha!
I only got to choose one wife, haha!
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JimG
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Of course, love is an act of the will, making it a “work,” something we must do.
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Trebor135
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Precisely.
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Nita
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Romans 1:4-5 … Jesus Christ our Lord, through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith
Obedience is a part of faith.
It is not necessarily a part of believing. One can believe Jesus is God and choose to be disobedient.
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snarflemike
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And yet the scripture doesn’t say “demons know” but “demons believe”, so there does seem to be an element of faith even for them.
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StLudmilla
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“So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.” James 2:17
It isn’t a matter of smuggling. It is a matter of understanding what “faith alone” actually means, and doesn’t mean.
It means that there is no work we do or can do that brings us to justification. Even the Catholic Church teaches that. So, the “alone” in faith alone is a way of defining, as opposed to pelagianism or semi-pelagianism, how we come to justification.
So justification is operative be grace alone, through faith alone, but that doesn’t mean that faith can be alone, as James tells us.
For faith to be a saving faith, it has to be a Galatians 5:6 faith, a faith that works through love. Therefore, love and charity are not smuggled in, but are necessarily linked to a saving faith, as evidence and the fruits of faith.
Faith alone does not mean a mere intellectual assent to God’s grace or existence. That is the kind of belief the demons have. Saving faith also must have trust and hope. We trust that God’s promise through Christ Jesus will be fullfilled. The demons have no such trust.
Faith alone does not mean a free pass to Heaven. If one has a true, saving faith, one will strive to be obedient to the commands of Christ, and live the Godly life He expects us to leave. There is an expectation that, with the encouragement of the Holy Spirit, that we will grow in grace. simply stating “I have faith”, and then not responding to grace in ways He expects us to - helping our neighbor, participating in the means of grace through hearing the word and receiving the sacraments - is precisely the dead faith that James is speaking about.
Jon
But the demons don’t have trust. They don’t believe God’s grace. Their belief is simply their knowledge of God, His existence.
Jon
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Evan
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The church separates the virtue of faith (one of the theological virtues) from The Faith. The virtues of Faith Hope and Charity are included in the Faith (a formed faith or fides formata).
The church accepts that we are saved via fides formata through grace. And that is where we agree with Martin Luther… it took 400 years to see that we were in agreement on this point. The church interpreted his idea of sola fides as more of faith = belief = informed faith (fides informata) rather than a formed and living faith.
The church accepts that we are saved via fides formata through grace. And that is where we agree with Martin Luther… it took 400 years to see that we were in agreement on this point. The church interpreted his idea of sola fides as more of faith = belief = informed faith (fides informata) rather than a formed and living faith.
That’s ok. It seems to have taken us 400 years to see that Catholicism is not teaching works righteousness.
Jon
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Trebor135
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I’ve still heard the charge made with a straight face by WELS pastors.That’s ok. It seems to have taken us 400 years to see that Catholicism is not teaching works righteousness.
(Their synod didn’t participate in the composing of the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification, however, so it makes sense they wouldn’t be in the loop on this issue.)The details you supply in your replies to me on the first page of this thread indicate that the Lutheran conception of justification is compatible with Catholic theology, and perhaps with Orthodox as well (though I haven’t begun my catechetical classes yet, so will have to ask about this). The same terms being employed to mean different things is what causes confusion, in light of which I apologize for my not-so-charitable knock against Protestantism earlier.
No apology needed.I’ve still heard the charge made with a straight face by WELS pastors.
The details you supply in your replies to me on the first page of this thread indicate that the Lutheran conception of justification is compatible with Catholic theology, and perhaps with Orthodox as well (though I haven’t begun my catechetical classes yet, so will have to ask about this). The same terms being employed to mean different things is what causes confusion, in light of which I apologize for my not-so-charitable knock against Protestantism earlier.
Jon
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xylem411
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James 2:19 reports they believe in a monotheistic God, and tremble. I don’t think even we are saved either by belief in a monotheistic God, though it is "well’ to do so. Demons fate is sealed. They have been judged for their actions. They exercised their free will. They have been found guilty and await their final implementation of their sentence. We are no different . We will be judged for how we chose, how we used our free will, whom we followed. Once judged, it is forever also . All the belief and knowledge will not avail you if it is obviously not a saving faith. Belief and knowledge is saving only if you “changed”, something demons can not do. Demons were born, created righteous, and a third of them changed and embraced unrighteousness. We are all born unrighteous, and must choose to be “changed” to righteousness . If we have been born again, all things become new, we are a new creation, acting and living in a new kingdom, righteously .Head knowledge is insufficient and is not enough to rebirth. One may “know” that Jesus is the son of God and came to die for our sins, to open up the gates of heaven. Is that enough ? I liken it to to knowing about a man who claims to be such a good aerealist acrobat that he can go across Niagara Falls, even with a man on his back. The true test to my knowledge and belief in him is when he asks if I would be that man to get on his back. Are we on Jesus’s back ? Does He “know” us that way.
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