If you are a “Protestant” or a Non-Catholic Christian, would you please share with us Catholics a summary of what it is that you actually believe?

[kms123]

Hi Emeralcoast:
Thank you for your kind words. Birth control, or the practice of it, has never been an issue with my wife and myself. My wife is a conservative Christian of the Church of Christ faith and is therefore very Pro-Life. In fact, she has been extremely active over the years as a Pro-Life advocate in both her personal life and as a journalist and owner of a newspaper. We both see the sanctity of life as created by God and would never have been involved in anything which would have prevented that life. The Church of Christ holds the same position as the RC Church on the issue of Pro-Life; many Protestant Churches also are very conservative on this issue, as well as birth control, but perhaps they use a little different language to describe their stance.

SK: ** If it is only a practice maybe the Church should allow priests to marry if they want. It might have solved a lot of problems in the past.**

NSPER7:
If I may ask, as a mitzvah for me, when do you believe that the Holy Scriptures came into being? With your remarkable background as coming from the Jewish faith originally, you have studied the Torah. Would you agree that the Word of God has been around for thousands of years in the written form?

My family has some Jewish blood in it too. Quess that makes us both part of the Chosen People of God! We lost over 120 of our entended family in the Holocaust that I have found so far.

Shma Israel, Adonai allohainu …
shalom,
Ponyman

ahh, what problems might it have solved?

 

[nsper7]

NSPER7:
If I may ask, as a mitzvah for me, when do you believe that the Holy Scriptures came into being? With your remarkable background as coming from the Jewish faith originally, you have studied the Torah. Would you agree that the Word of God has been around for thousands of years in the written form?

Actually, sadly, I did not really study Scripture until after I came to faith in Christ. Prior to that, it was all just ritual and stuff for me. Now, as to your question about Scripture, I can direct you to a couple excellent articles on the formulation of the OT and NT canon by a guy named James P. Holding, head of Tekton Apologetics Ministries:

The Formation of the OT Canon
The Formation of the NT Canon

 

[ponyman]

RE: KMS 123

What problems might it have solved? Allowing the priesthood to marry MIGHT just have prevented many of the scandals that the Church has endured not only over the past few years but throughout its history. It might have even prevented the need for the Church to cover up the molestation problems which have permeated the priesthood in the last few years and has almost bankrupt many dioceses. You do read the papers and watch TV, right?

RE: SK and others:

If you are so concerend with the supposed “secrecy” of the masonic order, you might want to take a look at the secrecy of the College of Cardinal during the election of a pope. Talk about secrecy, no one knows what goes on behind those closed and locked doors. The only clue that we eve have is when the white smoke comes up the chimney. How do we know exactly how and why a given pope is chosen; is it politics, is it economic, is it something else? This is a secretive organization which excludes anyone from knowing what happens behind those closed doors when they vote by secret ballot.

Every organization has rituals and symbols. Baseball teams, basketball teams, Rotary, Civitans, Moose, etc. I am sure that the Kof C even has rituals. I notice tht you wear costumes and carry swords? What are you going to use your sword to accomplish? What is the meaning behind the costumes? Pleae tell me something, what is the KofC about? Colombus never had any Knights. What are you a Knight of? Do you take any oaths? Do you have any rituals? What is the purpose of the KofC. Who commissioned it and for what purpose? If you take an oath, upon what document do you swear. What are the oaths you take? Do you have any secrets, like a handshake or some word you use to identify another Knight? Can I walk in as a non-Knight and watch your meetings? I would love to! It seems to me that it is little more than a distant mirror image of the masonic order, but then I am honest enough to admit that I have never been inside a KofC lodge, or whatever it is and have no knowledge of its functions, unlike so many on this site who seem to have so much knowledge of the masonic order and yet they have never been inside a masonic lodge. As for me, I am seeking wisdom here and would appreciate someone with direct knowledge informing me of these issues.

In as much as the masonic symbol that was placed here in this thread, what do you think it stands for and what does the G in the middle stand for? I know, do you?

I keep hearing that the masonic order is a religion on this thread. There have even been references to the District Court ruling that the masonic order was granted its Constitutional rights regarding freedom of religous expression. Do you now what that means? Also, just for information, that ruling is only binding within that Federal District, and not country wide on the other federal courts.

Once Christ was rejected by the Hebrews, who failed to recognize that He was the Messiah, everything - the Gospel and the new covenant - passed to the Gentiles. The custom and Mosaic Law regarding Circumcision only applied to Hebrews, and not Gentiles, therefore what Peter did was entirely Scripural. Peter did not depart from the authority of Holy Scripture at all, in fact his actions were entirely in keeping with Holy Scripture. There is no requirement that a non-Jew be circumcised according to Holy Scripture.

Does this satisfy you?

 

[Sir_Knight]

SK

I do not do anything by dishonest means. You are trying to play lawyer here in your meritless arguments and I am one. I do not need to make up anything because the case law is definitly on my side in the evidence which I proffered as taken from the docments of Vatican II. It is you who is fallible and your attempts to take Scriptural passages out of context and pervert them is fallible and a poor attempt to build you meritless case. Your case has no merit whatsoever, in as much as one moment you are claiming that the Church has complete authority over both the Bible - which you claim that the Church created rather than God and which. in reality has existed from the beginning of the ages both in the form of Christ, as the Word, and within the Torah. and then in the next you want to say that it is infallible but should maybe have had a few extra books which were not included. Which is it? The Church is emphatic that the New Testament was contained within the Old (The Law, The Torah, and especially in the Pentetuch) and that the Old was brought to fruition in the New. (SEEocuments Vat II)…

Well, being a lawyer, that explains why you talk so much in circles but say very little and what you do say, you say incorrectly with regards to what the second Vatican documents state.

If the don’t believe that the church created the bible in the late fourth century, then you are not living in reality. Plain and simple.

I find it amazing that one moment you are claiming that the Church has authority over Holy Scripture and in the next you are claiming that it is infallible. If the Church created the Bible then it is not infallible but a mere creation of man; please decide which position you are going to cling to and don’t vascillate.

The church is not man-made. It is guided by the Holy Spirit in all matters of faith. That’s what the bible tells us.

If Holy Scripture was written by the Holy Spirit who also compiled it, then it is infallible.

All of this was done by the Holy Spirit THROUGH the Church.

If the Bible was only put together in the circ. 4th century then it has no validity at all, let alone infallibility, since it is merely a man-made creation and not of the Creator. Which is it?

If the bible was put together by the Holy Spirit with no church involvement, at what point was it give to mankind? Where and when? Please show your EVIDENCE from recorded history or retract your ridiculous claim.

If you are going to cite from it and it is a man-made document why should anyone listen to you or to the Bible, and especially to the Church?

Because, as I said, it was not man-made. The Holy Spirit was guiding the church.

If the bible wasn’t put together by the church, through the workings of the Holy Spirit, then you have to show when and where it was given to mankind.

Next, that is not what the Scripture you quoted says.

Yes, it does.

In Matt. the Lord was speaking of divorce and the reasons as to why men may not or can not marry. Thus the decison to marry is an individual decision best left to the individual. You can’t take a passage out of context without reading the entire case. Any first year law student or first year theologian would know that much. Your cited Scriptural passage only reinforces the fact that celebacy, according to the words and inferences of the Lord, should be an individual decision and not Church policy. Paul’s passage is again taken out of context. he says that " it is better for a man to marry than to burn…" Again your argument is superflous and has no merit.

Interesting that you would say this because those were a direct word-for-word quote from John Salza’s book “The Biblical Basis for the Catholic Faith”. Interestingly enough, Mr. Salza is also a lawyer AND a successful author on the faith with a Catholic radio program AND is endorsed by a Catholic publishing company. When you author a book on the faith and have it backed by a Catholic publishing company, then you can impress us with your “first year law student or first year theologian” but until then, your credentials take a second place to Mr. Salza and he completely disagrees with you.

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[Sir_Knight]

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I did not put words into your mouth and I have not build a strawman case as you allege but a solid case built upon both the Word of God and the documents of the very Church you purport to defend.

They do nothing of the sort.

You said it! Now, either the Church created the Bible and therefore it has no merit and no validity or authority of its own and it is man-made, or Holy Scripture - all of it - is authored by God and is the ultimate authority and has been since the Word was both carnate and incarnate. There is no middle ground. Either the Holy Spirit wrote and then decided which books to include, or He didn’t. There are no other Holy Books which were inadvertently left out by the Holy Spirit - only the ones which the Holy Spirit included.

You are extremely ignorant of the faith which you profess to have. The Holy Spirit works THROUGH the church so there IS a middle ground.

The Church gets its money from the backs of its members, from investments, from the Vatican Bank and investments (do you remember that scandal?), from the ownership of businesses and other enterprizes. But it does not like to pay its priests very well and in some cases does not even offer health insurance and care.

And the church also gives out more to help others than any other organization. Use the search feature on this board and you’ll see that these supposed riches of the Catholic church has been addressed an rebuked a number of times.

I am certainly not Judas and you are no St. Peter!

Did I ever say that I was? Again, you are attemptng to build a strawman argument. So much for your earlier statement.

There have always been abuses in the Church and lots of waste while many of its members starved. As a matter of fact, the reason that Clement outlawed the Knights Templar was because he and King Phillip of France wanted their money and land. It was all about money, and power.

Why don’t you post that on the Apologetic forum and I’m sure that the members here will be more than happy to set you straight on the matter.

Was that infallible,

How is it that somebody who CLAIMS to be a lawyer doesn’t know the difference between infallibility (to teach with out error) and impeccability (to act without error)? Those are pretty basic concepts. I only took two law classes and I know the difference. How can someone who claims to have a JD in the field be ignorant of the difference of such a basic concept?

just like the Inquisition and the Concordance with Hitler?

The Inquisition was conducted by the Spanish Crown. It was official condemned by Rome and may priests and bishops lost their lives trying to oppose it.

Not only do you have the facts about your faith all mixed up but you have your historical facts all mixed up as well.

It was always about money, either getting it or hanging on to it. Just like the sale of Indulgences which prompted Father Luther to write his treatises.

If you have such a negative opinion of the Catholic faith, why are you a member of the Catholic Church? Jesus said that the gates of hell would not overcome HIS church. If there are as many things wrong with the Catholic faith as you CLAIM, then it clearly can not be Christ’s church and if it isn’t Christ’s church, why would you want to be a part of it?

Wrong again,

Wrong about what?

oh fallible one,

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon13.gif Again with the character attacks http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon13.gif

You must have little faith in your position if you can’t make your point by sticking to the topic being discussed and have to fall back on such tactics.

Paul said: “It is better for a man to marry than to burn…” Are you against marriage or something?

Paul ALSO said that hee “who refrains from marriage will do better.” (1 Cor. 7:32-33 & 38) You have something against obeying your church leaders when the bible, the infallible Word of God, commands you to do so?

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[Sir_Knight]

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No Christ’s situation was different. He was trying to save the world and the people in it. He was not out looking for little boys! You know, while we are on it, the masonic order has never sanctioned, been involved with or committed any criminal act, nor covered one up. I can’t say that about our Church as the recent court cases will assert!

Again, if you have such a negative opinion of the Catholic faith, why are you a member of the Catholic Church? Jesus said that the gates of hell would not overcome HIS church. If there are as many things wrong with the Catholic faith as you CLAIM, then it clearly can not be Christ’s church and if it isn’t Christ’s church, why would you want to be a part of it?

We were originally talking about Holy Scripture and God, and who was in charge; either Them or the Pope - which has authority over whom and who is really infallible.

It isn’t a question of either / or. Jesus said that He and His church were ONE. Those that reject His church, reject HIM.

Not only about celebacy. Get your arguments straight!

My arguements are straight. I am in agreement with church teaching as is required of ALL Catholics. You are the one who is confused. You seem to have major issues with the church yet still CLAIM to be a Catholic.

But, since you brought it up, show me concretly in Scripture where it says that clergy should be celebate.

I already did and the understanding of that passage is in agreement with an author who is supported by a Catholic publishing company and is a lawyer. The fact that you do not agree with it points to YOUR lack of understanding.

Maybe then I will believe something that you say, rather than taking your arguments for what they generally are.

If you don’t believe the church, the final authority of faith that was established by the Son of God HIMSELF, then you won’t believe anybody.

What is your question?

You know? You really need to learn how to use the quote feature. Between your illogiocal thinking and your inability to use the board features, nobody knows what you are talking about most of the time. Or is that your intent?

Yes, Holy Scripture is infallible and the Church is admonished in its own documents to be a good “Pupil” of the Holy Spirit in the Church’s admission that Holy Scripture is infallible. These are the Church’s teaching, not mine.

But the church is not dependent on scripture alone nor does it get it’s authority from scripture – I have already demonstrated that with quotes from the CCC … Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 2, Article 3, Paragraph 3, SubSection 3, Heading 6, Paragraph 553 - Jesus entrusted a specific authority to Peter: “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” The “power of the keys” designates authority to govern the house of God, which is the Church. Jesus, the Good Shepherd, confirmed this mandate after his Resurrection: “Feed my sheep.” The power to “bind and loose” connotes the authority to absolve sins, to pronounce doctrinal judgements, and to make disciplinary decisions in the Church. Jesus entrusted this authority to the Church through the ministry of the apostles and in particular through the ministry of Peter, the only one to whom he specifically entrusted the keys of the kingdom … that is a direct quote from OFFICIAL church teaching!

What about the latest version of Canon Law where the masonic order is not even mentioned? Can you give me a Scriptural quote on where it is a “grave sin” to belong to the masonic fraternity.

How about Heb. 13:7-17 where Saint Paul commands us to obey our church leaders because they have authority over our souls and our church leaders have officially declared (see here for actually church references) that it is a grave sin to belong to a masonic fraternity.

Maybe you can find one too that applies to KoC? I would appreciate a Scriptural reference to that effect too.

I’m not going to do your homework for you. You find a passage in scriputure which says that it is a sin to belong to the KofC.

Please get your act straight.

My answers are very straight. Your’s, on the other hand, leave something to be desired of!

 

[Sir_Knight]

RE: KMS 123

What problems might it have solved? Allowing the priesthood to marry MIGHT just have prevented many of the scandals that the Church has endured not only over the past few years but throughout its history. It might have even prevented the need for the Church to cover up the molestation problems which have permeated the priesthood in the last few years and has almost bankrupt many dioceses. You do read the papers and watch TV, right?

And as a supposed lawyer, you do know that a majority of these types of “molestation problems” are committed by MARRIED men. By bring married men into the priesthood, how would that reduce the problem?

RE: SK and others:

If you are so concerend with the supposed “secrecy” of the masonic order, you might want to take a look at the secrecy of the College of Cardinal during the election of a pope. Talk about secrecy, no one knows what goes on behind those closed and locked doors. The only clue that we eve have is when the white smoke comes up the chimney. How do we know exactly how and why a given pope is chosen; is it politics, is it economic, is it something else? This is a secretive organization which excludes anyone from knowing what happens behind those closed doors when they vote by secret ballot.

And your point is what? Are you saying that the church is doing things incoorectly? That would mean that Jesus is a liar because He promised that the Holy Spirit would guide the church in all truths.

Or are you saying that the church is wrong in not allowing it’s members to be masons? Again, that would mean that church teaching is incorrect indicating the the Holy Spirit is NOT guiding the church in all truth – again, making Jesus out to be a liar.

So, please clarify, exactly what is the point of your comments?

Every organization has rituals and symbols. Baseball teams, basketball teams, Rotary, Civitans, Moose, etc. I am sure that the Kof C even has rituals. I notice tht you wear costumes and carry swords? What are you going to use your sword to accomplish? What is the meaning behind the costumes? Pleae tell me something, what is the KofC about? Colombus never had any Knights. What are you a Knight of?

Again, I;m not going to do your homework for you. Go to www.KofC.org and you’ll find the answer to all of these questions.

Do you take any oaths?

No we don’t and I’ve been through all four of the degrees obtaining the level of “Sir Knight”.

Do you have any rituals?

Yes, all of which are in agreement with the teachings of the Catholic church. As a matter of fact, each local council is suppose to have a Chaplin who should be a priest or a deacon.

What is the purpose of the KofC.

To perform works of charity.

Who commissioned it and for what purpose?

It was started by a Catholic priest who is OFFICIALLY called a “Venerable Servant of God” and is up for sainthood as of Apr 13, 2008. Can you say the same thing for the founder of the Masons?

If you take an oath, upon what document do you swear.

We don’t take oaths. Surprise!

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[Sir_Knight]

*** Continued from PREVIOUS Post ***

What are the oaths you take?

Again, we don’t take oaths.

Do you have any secrets, like a handshake or some word you use to identify another Knight?

Secert handshakes? Hardly.

Can I walk in as a non-Knight and watch your meetings?

No. And neither can you walk into closed door business meeting of a company.

I would love to!

If you are a Catholic in GOOD standing with the church, why haven’t you joined?

It seems to me that it is little more than a distant mirror image of the masonic order,

Except that one is praised by the Catholic Church as being the “Strong right arm of the Catholic faith” while the membership in the other is viewed asa GRAVE sin. Seems like a pretty BIG difference.

but then I am honest enough to admit that I have never been inside a KofC lodge, or whatever it is and have no knowledge of its functions, unlike so many on this site who seem to have so much knowledge of the masonic order and yet they have never been inside a masonic lodge.

I never claimed to have any knowledge of the masonic order and I have no interested in learning anything about it. The Catholic Church has declared that membership in it is a grave sin and that is all I need to know because the church is the final authority on these matters for scripture has it that we are to obey our church leaders because they have authority over our souls (Heb. 13:7-17).

As for me, I am seeking wisdom here and would appreciate someone with direct knowledge informing me of these issues.

This link here lists official church documents showing that Catholics are forbidden from being Masons. As a Catholic in good standing with the church, that is all that we need to know.

In as much as the masonic symbol that was placed here in this thread, what do you think it stands for and what does the G in the middle stand for? I know, do you?

Don’t know. Don’t care, Church says that it’s a mortal sin to be a member.

I keep hearing that the masonic order is a religion on this thread. There have even been references to the District Court ruling that the masonic order was granted its Constitutional rights regarding freedom of religous expression. Do you now what that means? Also, just for information, that ruling is only binding within that Federal District, and not country wide on the other federal courts.

I don’t care if it is consider to be a religion or not. The point is that Catholics are forbidden from

once Christ was rejected by the Hebrews, who failed to recognize that He was the Messiah, everything - the Gospel and the new covenant - passed to the Gentiles. The custom and Mosaic Law regarding Circumcision only applied to Hebrews, and not Gentiles, therefore what Peter did was entirely Scripural. Peter did not depart from the authority of Holy Scripture at all, in fact his actions were entirely in keeping with Holy Scripture. There is no requirement that a non-Jew be circumcised according to Holy Scripture.

This is ONLY true with the addition of the NT which did not exist when Peter made the decision.

Show me where in the OT, circumcision was not required. There is even a passage where non-jews wish to worship with the Jews and they were required to be circumcisied.

Does this satisfy you?

No, because you haven’t proven anything.

 

[kms123]

RE: KMS 123

What problems might it have solved? Allowing the priesthood to marry MIGHT just have prevented many of the scandals that the Church has endured not only over the past few years but throughout its history. It might have even prevented the need for the Church to cover up the molestation problems which have permeated the priesthood in the last few years and has almost bankrupt many dioceses. You do read the papers and watch TV, right?Scripture.

?

Of course I knew what you were referring to.

MIGHT? Never! When H— freezes! That’s the silliest thing I’ve read.

IMO I’m not so sure they knew much about pedophilia. IMO The people in the church who did the “covering up” thought these pedophiles could be treated and cured per se. Also, if they repented they would be forgiven and trusted again. The cover was the mistake. That’s what caused the church problems.

Pedophilia occurs everywhere. Do you watch Dateline. They are in all walks of life. Even in other Christian religions. There just isn’t a centralized, mass cover up. But there are just as many in any one organization.

Gays, are well gay. Not necessarily pedophiles, some are. IMO they are sexually disturbed and many deviant.

In both cases, IMO, they are really good actors. They hide, and are very secretive. Also, IMO, they are emotionally immature and do not have good judgement, sexually.

We have a local pastor who has been charged with exposure, more than once. He is married. IMO, Deviant. He is still pastor at Cornerstone, a very large church.

In either case, this CANNOT be solved by marriage. That is the most ridiculous thing I have heard.

 

[Jimmy_B]

I am gradually going back and reading these posts, thank you all so very much for sharing…