If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic? - 2

[Hisalone]

Yes, you are right. And Catholic apologists would say that you do not see the perfection in the one Church founded by Christ because there is something wrong with your perceptions.

A generous person might say it is the result of ignorance, and since you do not understand what is taught, then you don’t see it’s perfection.

But, you are right, there is a pre-supposition that, if your perceptions were clear, and you are truly open to the Holy Spirit, then you would be Catholic.

I think it is also common to conflate Catholics and their behavior with the Church, which is not just a collection of such persons. The reason the Church is infallible is because she has Christ as her Head, and is ensouled by the Holy Spirit. It is the divine elements that make her perfect, not the human. The “Church” is greater than the sum of her imperfect members, and I think this gets lost somewhere also.

The answer would be that it is not the perceptions that are imperfect but the paradigm set up by the Catholic Church about itself that is false.
I do not have the slightest doubt that te Catholic Curch is not te same assembly that was present in the 1st century. The very corruption of the term ekklesia to fit the definition that the CC has given itself—yes it is self given not God given.

A generous person would say that Catholics are just repeating what they have been taught and are locked into this false paradigm out of a desire to follow some form of “absolute truth”.
There may be some that equate the behavior of individuals with that of the Cathholic Church but my concern is the behavior of the Cathoic Church as it pertains to the protecting individuals who are in error thus corrupting the whole institution.
I say this in regards to protecting those that missused their authoirty in denying the common man a bible written in the venacular. The false assertion that this prevented the spread of heresy does not pass the smell test. Also the protection of those who spread the false doctirne of indulgences.
We saw this princiaple acted out before our eyes as it regards to child sex abuse by the clergy.
How long did this persist and was covered up by high level officials before it was exposed? Would it have been exposed had CC officials had more authority than the state or when there was not the wide spread coverage by the secular press as was the case in generations past?
“and the gates of hell will not prevail against it”
Is said about Christs Assembly that is all of us who follow Christ. How do I know Im a follower of Christ? because I have been given His Spirit. I am part of Christs Assembly and an equal part not a greater part. It is time for Catholics to stop grieving Christ and “discern His body” which is all that are in Him.

 

[Hisalone]

I don’t think that decision is up to you.

This is a message board that allows the individual to express their thoughts and opinions.

 

[Christian1983]

NotWorthy the UCC is not my church. I think you implied it was. Probably my fault by saying UCC (UCC is simply the largest or close to largest Protestant church in Canada. I guess Anglican are big too) so many times. We have many OTHER protestant churches as I said before.

I do not purport to know all about the Reformation but I do believe it was a result of RCC behavior.

I actually just recently came from backpacking around Greece and Turkey(much better than Greece in every way i can think of), and learned about the Greek Orthodox Church. The problem I have is that they are disgustingly corrupt there (It is so bad there). The Priests get paid lots of money (ask a Greek. Many are fed up with it) so they can walk around with a funny hat and clad in all black. So no I am not interested in Orthodox Greek either but would be maybe if they weren’t so corrupt.

celticcrusader, I would be interested in taking such a course. But in order to teach at a RCC in Ontario I am apparently required to be a RCC and show a certificate and maybe more. It sucks but i sort of understand. I just want to teach mathematics though haha.

 

[Hisalone]

Ignoring questions that are put in convincement; in this case that Jesus founded but on church instead of many, would lack the very love that’s scaffolding Christianity, yes indeed is precondition to call oneself a Christian= Follower of Jesus Christ.

Jesus founded an assembly the Catholic Church has distorted Christs teachings so as to justify itself.
If you are truely a follower of Christ then you would recognize His own.

 

[Hisalone]

Something to think about, maybe Christ founded one Church, called Christianity, of which we now have many slices, Catholicism being** just** one.

Fixed

 

[Hisalone]

This doesn’t not require much thought. Jesus prayed for unity, and taught His Apotles unity. He founded one Church, and it is, by defninition, united. The Church is His Body, and He never intended for it to be “sliced”.

We are in unity as long as we are in Christ. We are one. When one group demands that it is head and that this group attempts ot lord over other groups and corrupts Christs teahings to justify itself then one has to ask is this group “In Christ”?

 

[Hisalone]

This doesn’t not require much thought. Jesus prayed for unity, and taught His Apotles unity. He founded one Church, and it is, by defninition, united. The Church is His Body, and He never intended for it to be “sliced”.

One pizza is made up of many slices.
God is **three **persons in one God and they are one.

 

[Hisalone]

Think about it for a second. Whether you are a Catholic or a Methodist, if you are a follower of Christ, you are a Christian. In that sense, we are all united. In the very early days of Christianity, everybody was just a Christian, period. Eventually, different sects of Christianity broke out, all were eliminated (some violently), or faded away, and the Catholic Church became the dominate form of Christianity. Then the Reformation happened…

Get my point?

You are correct.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Jesus founded an assembly the Catholic Church has distorted Christs teachings so as to justify itself.
If you are truely a follower of Christ then you would recognize His own.

you mean Jesus waited until now, waited for you to tell us the Truth that His hurch is suppost to be the so called assembly?

which mean?

 

[mikew262]

Jesus founded an assembly the Catholic Church has distorted Christs teachings so as to justify itself.
If you are truely a follower of Christ then you would recognize His own.

Its all a matter of interpretation. The Catholic Church can provide justification for it’s teachings, the same as I’m sure your church can.

As I’m sure you’ve noticed, I’ve railed against a few of my fellow Catholics for their narrow-minded views (IMO) of fellow non-Catholic Christians. The same goes for non-Catholics who view the Catholic Church as wrong. To me it’s silly to criticize each other. It doesn’t accomplish anything positive, it just continues the same old prejudices.

We are all Christians who believe the same basic things; we just happen to worship Christ differently. Is this so wrong? If you don’t agree how the Catholics worship, fine. Be happy with how you worship God, but don’t put down others on how they do it. This goes for everybody (including me).

 

[Memaw]

I consider myself Christian as I believe in Jesus the son of God. I also consider myself to be a Protestant. I do not belong to any particular church, but am greatly against abortion.

I know that many Protestants are considered to be social-liberals, but this is a somewhat false assumption. The truth is there are many Protestants, so many in fact that a great number do not even label themselves Protestant and seem confused when that term comes up in a conversation. The point is there are so many, that there are those that support abortion, rights to commit sodomy, etc.

These people exist in the Catholic church too (many Catholics go against the teachings of the RCC, but still consider themselves RC).
My view of the RCC is that it is a church with very strong beliefs and fairly clear definitions of what is acceptable and what is not. Many of these “RC’s” think that the RCC is the only Christian church. This I believe, is a reason why they consider themselves to still be RC.

I on the other hand do not wish to falsely label myself. I am not RC as I do not in any way shape or form believe in the Pope (I have met quite a few RC’s that do not either). By belief in the Pope, I mean that I consider the Pope to be just a guy. I do not beleive he has a special connection with God that is not afforded to the rest of us. I think that those who accepted purgatory and were ok with papal indulgences are messed up. Sure that is in the past, but a lot can be learned from the past.

My question goes out to the knowledgeable RC’s. Must an RC believe in the Pope?

If you don’t accept the Pope as the Infallible head of the Catholic Church and if you are not willing to accept the teachings of the Magisterium of the Catholic Church then you are not a faithful Catholic. You may be a baptized one, an ignorant one, or a liberal one, or a cafeteria one, or any number of other labels, but you are slighting yourself if you are not a faithful one. The peace and true joy come from the Graces of the Sacraments. Especially Confession and Holy Communion, Confirmation and Marriage. They are the sources of powerful Grace to most Catholics. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Lisdogan]

Not a deficit of logic, but perhaps a theological difference. Catholics believe that God works in and through our free will, and that though He desires perfect unity, He allows us to reject His purpose for ourselves, and one another.

Surely the conclusion then is the proposition that he allowed Catholic Christians to use their free will to follow Luther and his brethren into the protestant communion?

Would this conclusion not be antithetical to the faith of any Catholic Christian?

I have, further, been assured that God - omnipotent, omniscient, eternal - knows all including the future. Would he have allowed this foreseeable destructive separation to take place - knowingly - as a sop to humankind’s individual and/or collective free will?

In Christ

 

[Lisdogan]

 (1) **I am amazed at how many Catholics remain Catholic but discard much of the teaching of the church**. In fact, studies indicate that the least 'believing' area of the nation is the northeast, where Catholicism tends to be strongest - places like MA, CT, RI, NY, etc. As I recall RI is the one state of the union where Catholicism is the absolute majority religion, and roughly 45% of the population of CT and MA also are Catholic. All very liberal areas, both in religion and politics. The areas that seem most committed to the Christian faith are heavily Protestant - especially the southeast.. 

 (2) **As for mainline Protestants, also strong in the northeast, many - maybe most - of them seem to care much less about the fine points of doctrine than about ethical behavior,** about following Christ rather than worshiping him. When Jesus was asked how to inherit eternal life, he said nothing about dogma but said to love God and one another. When he was pushed a bit further, he did not provide a lesson in catechism but gave the parable of the Good Samaritan. Generally, mainline Protestants strike me as less concerned about theology, more interested in how we live. Many don't hesitate to dismiss some aspects of Catholicism as mere superstition. If the Bible is quoted and they disagree with it, they dismiss those Bible quotes, too. Unlike evangelicals, they are not into sola scriptura. They believe the Bible as a whole is inspiring and perhaps inspired, but that parts of it are unimportant or even wrong (e. g., stoning people to death, women not to speak in churches, condemning non-believers to hell, etc.)  Many doubt some of Jesus' miracles - water into wine, walking on water, feeding 5000, raising Lazarus. Their Bible study groups seem to encourage diversity in thinking rather than agreement. The old Protestant idea of individual interpretation of scripture.

** To fit this thread, I am suggesting that many mainline Protestants have a very different focus than either Catholics or evangelical Protestants**. As for evangelical Protestants, they are much into theology (generally) and seem ready to engage in verse for verse dialogue wih Catholics. Remember the old adage: “Even the devil can quote scripture.” This is not to say that the evangelicals are devilish, only that scripture is not always clear. I’ve often wondered: if God wanted us all to believe the same way - all of us Catholics - why didn’t He make scripture clearer? That’s one reason I feel that God must be very gentle when it comes to judging people by their faith. There is enough ‘ammunition’ in the Bible for a variety of interpretations.

You think and write beautifully. Thank you for this.

In Christ

 

[wisdomseeker]

Surely the conclusion then is the proposition that he allowed Catholic Christians to use their free will to follow Luther and his brethren into the protestant communion?

Would this conclusion not be antithetical to the faith of any Catholic Christian?

I have, further, been assured that God - omnipotent, omniscient, eternal - knows all including the future. Would he have allowed this foreseeable destructive separation to take place - knowingly - as a sop to humankind’s individual and/or collective free will?

In Christ

why would God allow the umbelievers to kill His only Son our Lord?

you see man has free will. God allows good and evil to live together until the harvest day.

that is why is so important that we are on the Lord’s side.

:byzsoc:

 

[Lisdogan]

You are very badly mistaken here. Heresies broke off from the One Church and died out. But since the beginning the Church was Catholic.

You will have to provide more specific information to back up this claim, because it is simply ridiculous.

Some believe that Christ founded the universal Christian church, of which the Catholic Church is part, along with many other denominations. The universal Church of Christ was not originally designated the ‘Catholic Church’, because that name did not exist for some decades.

If you think the claim is ‘ridiculous’ then perhaps it is up to you - for a change - to provide proof of your claim.

In Christ, for Christendom

 

[Lisdogan]

And better case for Memaw’s point is following the 10 tribes of Israel who broke off from the 2 southern tribes after Solomon’s death. They tried to re-create the form of worship that God established and basically messed it all up.

Most Protestant churches have removed the altar, removed the Sacrifice, turned the Lord’s Supper as a simple remembrance, and replaced them with things akin to what Israel did in Dan and Bethel. They also removed the priesthood (since there is no sacrifice anymore) which removed the Sacrament of Confession.

I think this is perhaps uninformed and biased opinion - for example suggesting that a Christian community would by preference revert to paganism. It is preferable to create a firm foundation if you are going to throw stones . (How’s that for a mixed metaphor with biblical meanings!)

In Christ

 

[celticcrusader]

I know there is over1000 post’s but somewhere back there is your answer. it was discussed a while ago.it has to do with the greek word for catholic.

 

[Memaw]

While its been awhile since I looked at the catechism, I believe the Church never claims specifically Catholics have a better chance at salvation than non-Catholics. In fact, I think it goes out of its way to say it has no way of knowing for sure. Again, I could be wrong on this and if somebody can show be otherwise, then I’ll be open to it. However, of course, I would then have to take the time search where I saw what I claim. I won’t give up that easy.

Maybe you should take time to really learn about your Catholic Faith before you try so hard to convince us that one church is as good as another. The Catholic Church is not in competition with any one. She is the ONE TRUE Church and thats that. Like it or not, its the truth. So you can go on and on but that won’t change the truth. The Catholic Church has the fullness of truth, how much better can you get? She is not in the habit of looking down at others like you seem to think but she does have the responsibility to teach the TRUTH. Boy you really need to read St. Paul. This is a year dedicated to St. Paul, why don’t you make it your goal to study him. I really doubt he would have endured all he did if it didn’t really make any difference what one believed. If you follow the TRUTH, all roads lead to Rome, (the Vatican.) God Bless, Memaw.

 

[celticcrusader]

I know there is over1000 post’s but somewhere back there is your answer. it was discussed a while ago.it has to do with the greek word for catholic.

EXCUSE my post . I misunderstood what I was reading.Sorry

 

[Lisdogan]

Its all a matter of interpretation. The Catholic Church can provide justification for it’s teachings, the same as I’m sure your church can.

As I’m sure you’ve noticed, I’ve railed against a few of my fellow Catholics for their narrow-minded views (IMO) of fellow non-Catholic Christians. The same goes for non-Catholics who view the Catholic Church as wrong. To me it’s silly to criticize each other. It doesn’t accomplish anything positive, it just continues the same old prejudices.

We are all Christians who believe the same basic things; we just happen to worship Christ differently. Is this so wrong? If you don’t agree how the Catholics worship, fine. Be happy with how you worship God, but don’t put down others on how they do it. This goes for everybody (including me).

Right on. Thank you.

In Christ