If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic? - 2

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Not all people who call themselves Catholic are united in their beliefs and thinking. However, I have yet to see a belief that is 100% united in every church. I asked a question in another thread and got two completely different answers, both Catholics.
Just because all Catholics are not united in believing what the Catholic Church teaches, does NOT mean the Catholic Church is lacking in the truth. We call them cafeteria catholics, pick and choose what they want to believe. But they are only fooling themselves. The C.Church continues to teach the TRUTH no matter what goes on around her. And She will be here with open arms to help us and welcome us back when we see the errors of our way.
 
Just because all Catholics are not united in believing what the Catholic Church teaches, does NOT mean the Catholic Church is lacking in the truth. We call them cafeteria catholics, pick and choose what they want to believe. But they are only fooling themselves. The C.Church continues to teach the TRUTH no matter what goes on around her. And She will be here with open arms to help us and welcome us back when we see the errors of our way.
catholics believe everything the Church teaches.
now to obey the teachings of the Church is another story. many catholics do not. but they will be accountable for their disobedience.

just look at the story of the Israelites what did happen to the Hebrews when they disobeyed God. many were punished even by death.

“**I should not believe the Gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.”
Saint Augustine (354-430), Against the Letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D… **
 
awantz, you said you asked a question in another thread and got two completely different answers, both Catholics.

The fact that 2 individual catholic’s draw different conclusions regarding doctrine, is all the more reason everyone should defer to C.C. (magisterium) for leadership and guidance regarding faith and morals. Jesus selected specific people to spearhead His established church in the 1st century and He promised He would be with His apostolic church “forever,” which means this promise of perpetuity extends to His church through every century, until His second coming. If Jesus’ established church “fell away” then Jesus’ promise to be with them until the “end of time” is rendered null and void!

awantz, a couple of weeks ago you said: “Yes, but Catholicism fell away from what Christ intended for the church to be through Peter.”

And I asked : “At exactly what time in history did this earth shattering event take place? Surely it must be recorded in the annals of Christianity or other!”

And you said: “I was told this by some Catholics I know and the guy that teaches RCIA.”

He teaches in the Catholic church. He is the one who teaches RCIA. He has be teaching it for many years. He believes that yes they fell away, but they are trying to get back on track and that is what I believe, too.

And I asked for some biblical or historical evidence (anything at all) that might support his claims. I have to have something to work with! Blind faith that the C.C. fell by the wayside at some unspecified time in history will not suffice.

And you said: “I will have to talk to them. I’ll get back to you on that.”

Did you get a chance to talk to him; if so, what reasons/evidence did he give for teaching that “Catholicism fell away from what Christ intended for the church to be through Peter?”🙂
 
The first thing we need to do, as Christians, is to understand individual apostasy, individual scandals from the perspective of our faith in the Jesus. Before he chose his first disciples, Jesus went up the mountain to pray all night (Luke 6:12). He had many followers at the time. He talked to his Father in prayer about whom he should choose to be his twelve apostles-the twelve whom he would form intimately, the twelve whom he would send out to preach the good news in his name. He gave them power to cast out demons. He gave them power to cure the sick. They watched him work countless miracles. They themselves worked countless others in his name.

Yet one of them tuned out to be a traitor. One who had followed the Lord-who had seen him walk on water and raise people from the dead and forgive sinners, one whose feet the Lord had washed-betrayed him. The gospels tells us that Judas allowed Satan to enter into him and then sold the Lord for thirty pieces of silver, handing him over by faking a gesture of love. “Judas,” Jesus said to him in the garden of Gethsemane, “would you betray the Son of Man with a kiss?” (Luke 24:48).

Jesus didn’t choose Judas to betray him. But Judas was always free, and he used his freedom to allow Satan to enter into him, and by his betrayal Jesus was crucified and executed. But God foresaw this evil and used to accomplish the ultimate good: the redemption of the world.

The point is, sometimes God’s chosen ones betray him. That is a fact that we have to confront. If the early Christians had focused only on the scandal caused by Judas, the Church would have been finished before it even started to grow. Instead they recognized that you don’t judge a movement by those who don’t live it but by those who do. Rather than focusing on the betrayer, they focused on the other eleven on account of whose work, preaching, miracles, and love for Christ we are here today. It is on account of the other eleven-all of whom except John were martyred for Christ and for the gospel they proclaimed-that we ever heard the saving word of God, that we ever received the sacraments of eternal life.

People can focus on the members of the church, through every century who have betrayed the Jesus, those who abused rather than loved the people whom they were called to serve, or they can focus, as did the early Church, on those who have always remained faithful, those deacons, priests and bishops who are still offering their lives to serve Christ.

Unfortunately, scandal is nothing new for the Church. There have been many times through the ages when things were looking rather abysmal for the C.C. The history of the Church is like a cosine curve with many ups and downs. At the times when the Church hits its low points God raises up tremendous saints to bring the Church back to its real mission. It’s almost as if in those times of darkness the light of Christ shines ever more brightly.

Francis de Sales was one of those many many Saints through the centuries, who came along after the Protestant Reformation. The Reformation was not principally about theology-although theological differences came later-but about morals. Martin Luther, an Augustinian priest, lived during the reign of perhaps the most notorious pope in history, Alexander VI. This pope never taught anything against the faith-the Holy Spirit prevented that-but he was a wicked man. He had nine children from six different concubines. He put out contracts on the lives of those he considered his enemies.

Luther, like everyone, must have wondered how God could allow a wicked man to be the visible head of his Church. All types of moral problems confronted Luther even in his own country of Germany. Priests were living in open relationships with women. Some made exaggerated claims about indulgences. There was terrible immorality among lay Catholics. Luther was scandalized, as anyone who loved God should have been. He allowed the scandal to drive him from the Church.

Eventually God raised up many saints to combat this erroneous solution and to bring people back to the Church Christ founded. Francis de Sales was one of them. At the risk of his life he went through Switzerland, where the Calvinists were popular, preaching the gospel with truth and love. Several times on his travels he was beaten and left for dead.

Someone once asked him to address the situation of the scandal caused by so many of his brother priests. What Francis de Sales said is as important for us today as it was then. He did not pull any punches. He said, “While those who give scandal are guilty of the spiritual equivalent of murder *, those who take scandal-who allow scandals to destroy their faith-are guilty of spiritual suicide.” They are guilty, he said, of cutting off their life with Christ by abandoning the source of life in the sacraments, especially the Eucharist. He went among the people in Switzerland trying to prevent their committing spiritual suicide on account of the scandals.

Bishop Fulton J. Sheen said that he would have preferred to live in times when the Church suffered rather than thrived, when the Church had to struggle, when the Church had to go against the culture. It was a time for real men and real women to stand up and be counted. “Even dead bodies can float downstream,” he said, pointing that many people can coast when the Church is respected, “but it takes a real man, a real woman, to swim against the current.”

How true that is. It takes a real man or a real woman to stand up against the current that is flowing against the Church. It takes a real man or a real woman to recognize that when you are resisting the flood of criticism, you are safest when you stay attached to the Rock on whom Christ built his Church. This is one of those times.

Some people are predicting that the Church is in for a rough time, and maybe it is. But the Church will survive because the Lord will make sure it survives. One of the greatest comeback lines in history was uttered two hundred years ago. As his armies were swallowing up the countries of Europe, French emperor Napoleon is reported to have said to Church officials, “Je détruirai votre église” (“I will destroy your Church”)." When informed of the emperor’s words, Ercole Cardinal Consalvi, one of the great statesmen of the papal court, replied, “He will never succeed. We have not managed to do it ourselves!” If bad popes, immoral priests, and countless sinners in the Church hadn’t succeeded in destroying the Church from within, Cardinal Consalvi was saying, how did Napoleon think he was going to do it from without?

The Cardinal was pointing to a crucial truth: Christ will never allow his Church to fail. He promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church (Matt. 16:18); that the ship of Peter, the Church sailing through time to its eternal port in heaven, will never capsize-not because those in the boat won’t do everything sinfully possible to overturn it but because Christ, who is captain of the boat, will never allow it to happen.

After Judas’s death the eleven apostles convened; the Holy Spirit chose Matthias to take Judas’s place, and he proclaimed the gospel faithfully until he was martyred for it. In the same way today, even if some of those Jesus chose have betrayed him, he will call others who will be faithful, who will serve with the love Jesus intended.

Jesus is with His established church just as he promised, and He will be with her until the end of time. If GOD starts something, rest assured He won’t fail, regardless of all the fruitless attempts by Satan working through sinful people to destroy Jesus’ “Body” the church.

And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelations 12:16-17

*"and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. **And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all. Ephesians **1:19-23
 
Just because all Catholics are not united in believing what the Catholic Church teaches, does NOT mean the Catholic Church is lacking in the truth.
I never said the Catholic Church was lacking in the truth.
 
awantz, a couple of weeks ago you said: “Yes, but Catholicism fell away from what Christ intended for the church to be through Peter.”

And I asked : “At exactly what time in history did this earth shattering event take place? Surely it must be recorded in the annals of Christianity or other!”
If I remember correctly it was in the 1500’s I’ll have too double check.
 
Hey awantz…

**And I asked : “At exactly what time in history did this earth shattering event take place? Surely it must be recorded in the annals of Christianity or other!”

And you said: “I was told this by some Catholics I know and the guy that teaches RCIA.”

He teaches in the Catholic church. He is the one who teaches RCIA. He has be teaching it for many years. He believes that yes they fell away, but they are trying to get back on track and that is what I believe, too.**

You said, If I remember correctly it was in the 1500’s I’ll have too double check.

I was just wondering why you believe the guy that wrongly believes/teaches (according to the teachings of the RCIA) --that the C.C. fell away? I would think that an exact date(s) with official documentation to boot, would be a mandatory criterion! It is for every other historical event! I certainly understand why you might inquisitively speculate, but without historical proof from an authoritative and legitimate historian, secular or otherwise, it simply remains pure conjecture. Would you say --that is a fair assessment?

Why would a teacher of the RCIA promote the idea that the C.C. apostatized? :confused: :confused: :confused: The RCIA is a communal process and involves a number of stages punctuated by liturgical rites to aid and assist the potential convert toward the final rite, usually at the Easter Vigil at which time they will become full members of the Roman Catholic Church. and it has always been approved by the C.C. The Second Vatican Council recommended that the Church renew its way of receiving Adult Candidates. A revised rite called the Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults (RCIA) was approved by Pope Paul VI in 1972 and has become the norm for the Church. This is something that can be verified via historical record, unlike the reputed “apostasy” of the C.C. RCIA stresses formation in doctrine, liturgy, Church life, and service and involves the larger Church community in welcoming, instructing, helping and praying for Candidates.

The RCIA helps adults to grow in their relationship with God, become familiar with Catholic traditions, teachings and practices, get acquainted with people in the community and get involved in service within the community.
 
…more people go to Hell because they have NO ONE to pray for them
thanks for your posting, but this sentence is not so, for two reasons.
First of all, we do not enough appreciate the absolute justness of God, which was manifested again with the suffering of Jesus. Just as well the almighty God could have said: I wipe away he fault of earth. This wouldn’t have been justice and righteous, but almightiness.
And the second reason: Monks and converts or monasteries are praying continuously.
We should keep in mind, that
If this continuous prayer in the Church would not be, the earth wouldn’t exist any more, but really had been wept away for it’s sins committed every day to the worse.
 
i am not sure if you are catholic or other. my point is the desobedience to Christ’s Church is disobedience to Christ Himself. it is an offense to Him.

yesterday the readings were Psalm 50:16-23 St mathew 6:18-22.

**“I should not believe the Gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.”
Saint Augustine (354-430), Against the Letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D… **
Sorry, being a Non-Catholic Christian is not being disobedient to Christ, if that’s what you meant. I am Catholic, but I also try to keep an open mind and use some common sense.
 
But what if one rejects the very teachings that Christ instituted. I know some do out of ignorance, but others outright reject everything, ignoring all the facts in front of them.
But what if the person sincerely believes he/she is following Christ’s teachings? Do you really think God will condemn them? One person’s rejections is another’s acceptance. To a Protestant, they are not rejecting anything (in their eyes), they are accepting Christ’s teachings as they see them. They may reject Catholicism, because they believe it’s wrong.
 
I didn’t say that at all, yes, you are misunderstanding what I said, Read the line, God never abandons HIS children and even when we are in sin and error, the Holy Spirit is there to try to guide us back. To the fullness of TRUTH. It is Jesus Christ’s will that we ALL be ONE in HIM. If you read the Bible correctly you can’t help but see that.
It’s all interpretation Memaw, all interpretation. The Catholic Church has it’s interpretation, other denominations have theirs, and we’ll never know who has it right and who doesn’t until we come before God. He may say, nobody had it completely right, but for those who sincerely tried to follow the teachings I left and lived a good life will obtain their salvation.
 
But what if the person sincerely believes he/she is following Christ’s teachings? Do you really think God will condemn them? One person’s rejections is another’s acceptance. To a Protestant, they are not rejecting anything (in their eyes), they are accepting Christ’s teachings as they see them. They may reject Catholicism, because they believe it’s wrong.
that is why I said:
I know some do out of ignorance, but others outright reject everything, ignoring all the facts in front of them.
Christ will judge them, not me.

But I worry about those who follow the Church with all the love and charity that they can, until something happens that they disagree with - a(n) (imagined) slight by a priest or fellow parishioner, a desire to re-marry without an annulment, and various other reasons - those are the ones I pray for.

And there are the ones who think the Catholic Church is wrong and never honestly investigate Her reasonings. If I saw a Church that claimed to have Apostolic congruity, I would do everything in my power to investigate it before throwing it by the wayside and looking elsewhere.
 
Uh, case still wide open. I have a Baptist friend who would disagree. Pls explain your reasoning.
If you have been baptized with the proper form and water, then the Catholic Church teaches that you are Catholic. Now, if you happen to be Baptist, then you are Catholic but not completely in the Catholic Church, since you don’t recognize and participate in the Sacraments. This is why a Baptist who has been baptized doesn’t need to be re-baptized if he/she were to join the Catholic Church.

Think of it this way, someone can deny the law of gravity, but if they were to jump up in the air, they’d find that any amount of denial does not dis-prove the fact.
 
All Christians are, by definition, Catholic.

Case closed.
Not so fast my dear, to be Baptized is to be a Christian, and a child of God. BUT, BUT to be a practicing Catholic one MUST be a real member of the Catholic Church and believe me there is a BIG difference. Even among those that were baptized into the Catholic Church, many do not know or truly believe what the Catholic Church teaches, they are nominal Catholics or even indifferent Catholics. They don’t even bother to learn…Some are cafeteria Catholics, they pick and choose what they want to believe. A true Catholic is one who knows, loves and tries their best to live the Catholic life. Why did God make me? To know, love and serve HIM in this world and to spend eternity with HIM in the next. His way, not mine.
 
All Christians are, by definition, Catholic.

Case closed.
Not so fast my dear, to be baptized is to be a Christian, and a child of God. BUT, BUT to be a practicing Catholic one MUST be a real member of the Catholic Church and believe me there is a BIG difference. Even among those that were baptized into the Catholic Church, many do not know or truly believe what the Catholic Church teaches, they are nominal Catholics or even indifferent Catholics. They don’t even bother to learn…Some are cafeteria Catholics, they pick and choose what they want to believe. A true Catholic is one who knows, loves and tries their best to live the Catholic life. Why did God make me? To know, love and serve HIM in this world and to spend eternity with HIM in the next. His way, not mine.
 
Sorry, being a Non-Catholic Christian is not being disobedient to Christ, if that’s what you meant. I am Catholic, but I also try to keep an open mind and use some common sense.
Here we go with I, I again. Is it really up to I? Maybe you should spend a little time learning your Catholic Faith and spending some time with Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament.
 
Here we go with I, I again. Is it really up to I? Maybe you should spend a little time learning your Catholic Faith and spending some time with Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament.
Maybe you should take your own advice…👍
 
Uh, case still wide open. I have a Baptist friend who would disagree. Pls explain your reasoning.
Ask your Baptist friend if Jesus founded more than one Church. Ask him if the phrase “one Church” is found in the Bible?

Our non-Catholic friends belong to Christ’s one Church–His Catholic Church–(albeit not in a complete way).
 
You have made an excellent point here Joe…This says it, all right here and I believe that the number is actually closer to 40,000.

I would like to here a Protestant explain the logic or biblical bases for these divisions and sub-divisions of Christianity.

Personal interpretation has led to “mob rule” and chaos and it has weakened Christianity. It is the old, “divide and conquer” principle and we are dividing and conquering ourselves.

Imagine how much greater Christianity would be and all the great things that we could accomplish, working together as one faith, which was truly united…

The insanity needs to stop….Where living in a world today, where anyone who has a Bible can become a “minister” and start his or her own (Protestant) Christian denomination. People now can pay a small free and become “ordained ministers”, over the internet. Many people today are having non-denominational ministers perform their marriage ceremonies. What is a “non-denominational ministers” anyways…this does not even make any sense.

Some ministers make a living, just marring people. They have drive-through marriage chapels and Elvis impersonators who perform marriages in Las Vegas. There are ministers on TV who claim to heal people and ask for your money. Some ministers and preachers today wear Rolex watches, drive expensive cars and live in mansion all paid for with the monies that were given to them, with the intention that it would go to help the needy.

There is even a “drunken minister” on the Jerry Springer show.

All these so-called “Ministers of God” belong to some Protestant denomination. People today have made a mockery of Christianity and a mockery of Holy Sacraments, like marriage. The main cause of all this nonsense can be blamed on “personal interpretation” of the Bible.

I know that there are some good and decent ministers and decent denominations out there but with personal interpretation, even a “normal ministers” could error and join the ranks of all the other crazy’s.

Why don’t the “squared away” denominations, reign in the nut cases? They don’t, because they can’t…They can’t, because they too believe in the flawed doctrine of “personal interpretation” or, “to each his own”, right?.

I am sure that there exist some Protestants out their who are just as offend as I am with the breakdown of Christianity…What are your thoughts and how is anybody going to correct these problems, without central leadership, oversight and a chain of command?

I pray for true Christian Unity….

Peace
So very well said. Thanks Jimmy. If only we could do just that. There would be such a change in this world. I have a Bible verse on my computer that says. 2 Chronicles Chapter 7 Verse 14

If my people, which are called by my Name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek MY face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear them from Heaven, and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

If we all sincerely did that, it would lead to Christian Unity and
Peace.
 
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