If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic? - 2

[Memaw]

**There was harsh disallowances to my word, we pray not to Mary, we pray to God only.
Those of you, who knew me from former posts must know, that this is merely my mistake of translation, and I still can’t find the right word.
Some of you have the small book of Karl Keating. “What Catholics really believe”. In chapter 29 about the rosary, he explains, that we do not pray at Holy Mary, but we pray to God only.
Now – the word PRAY is wrongly translated by me, and I must ask you for the right one.

Some times the effort trying to understand each other (Americans among Americans and German among Germans and so on) too is a form of love we should practice.
Misunderstandings often simply grow out of lack of will to understand

When my son was found with his back of his head battered, I prayd
DEAR GOD PLEASE TAKE BJOERN TO YOUR KINGDOM – DEAR MOTHER OF GOD PLEASE LEAD BJORN TO GOD.
Here we are. In the case of God, I prayed to God, in the case of Mary, I asked Her for intersession before God for Bjoern (please lead Bjoern to Jesus)

It’s a matter of the right word. Surely you have a word for praying to God and an other one for asking Mary or Saints to help us, for it’s God alone who is – I don’t know… prayed at, hollowed, - no dictionary tells me and it’s so easy – when you know. If anyone of you speaks German, here the right word is: “angebetet”. Gott alleine wird angebetet, Maria wird verehrt als Fuerbitterin (last word is “intercessor”.
**

God Bless your son, and he and you all are in my prayers.

Sorry I do not speak German, even tho my grandfather was German. But I will try to explain. When we talk to someone, we don’t “talk” to everyone alike. Prayer is a form of “talking”. When I pray to God I am “Talking” to HIM. When we use the term “praying to Mary”, it means we are talking to her in prayer. Anytime you address someone that is in Heaven, you are praying. Prayer is the communication between Heaven and Earth. We know, as any sensible person would know, that Mary is NOT Divine, she is a human person like us, only far more privileged, being the Mother of OUR LORD When we pray “to” a Saint, we are talking to them too. It really isn’t any different than if I asked you to Pray for me, and I do!
It is interesting that even tho most protestants do not believe in the Communion of Saints, as Catholics do, but if you look in the obituaries of any newspaper, you will see where many people spend lots of money putting in an article saying something like this, “Johnny, you have been gone for 10 years and we still miss you and love you,” etc,etc. Do they think Johnny can read the paper??? I think it is their way of showing the need to communicate, “talk”, pray to their loved ones that have died. Thus the communion of saints. Whether they say they believe in it or not.

When we pray to God, we first, Adore HIM, and we express sorry for our sins and failings, we thank HIM for his blessings, and we ask Him for HIS help and guidance for ourselves and others. When we “pray” to the Blessed Mother or Saints, we ask for her prayers for ourselves and others and we express our Love for Her in thanksgiving for what she has done for us. She is in Heaven and Her prayers are far more powerful than ours. When you ask someone to pray for you, don’t you ask the ones you are sure they love God and pray sincerely. Would you prefer to ask someone who seldom prays and isn’t close to God? I think not. Thats why we turn to Mary, She takes our prayers to Her Divine Son. Can we go directly to Jesus, of course we can and do, in Adoration, Contrition and Thanksgiving. but I would much rather go to Him in petition, holding Mary’s hand. God Love you and Bless you, Memaw.

 

[mikew262]

Ask your Baptist friend if Jesus founded more than one Church. Ask him if the phrase “one Church” is found in the Bible?

Our non-Catholic friends belong to Christ’s one Church–His Catholic Church–(albeit not in a complete way).

He might respond , “his Church is the Christian Church” which the Catholics continuously corrupted over the many years, until the Reformation finally happened. Of course, I don’t believe that, but many a non-Catholic Christian does.

 

[mikew262]

TIME FOR SERIOUS ECUMENISM

 This business of one church being more Christian than another can become both boring and annoying. My own view is that God doesn't give a hoot whether we are Roman Catholic or Baptist or Methodist or whatever. Perhaps not even whether we are Jewish or Muslim or Buddhist.

  As Christ once asked in exasperation: "Why call me Lord, Lord, and do not the things that I say?" (Luke 6:46)  He doesn't look at our denominations or our creeds. Jesus examines our hearts to see whether we follow his commandments to love God and love one another. 

   All this silly and persistent quibbling over the true meaning of communion or praying to Mary or the authority of the Pope must trouble Christ. He wants his followers to work toward reconciliation, understanding, love of one another, respect for different viewpoints. Why have so many Christians insisted on making their particular expression of faith so narrow and intolerant? When someone has a different insight into matters of faith, why are we so quick to condemn when our response should be: "Interesting. Tell me more"? No, we certainly don't have to agree, of course, but we need to be respectful rather than dismiss such views as wrong, sinful or heretical. 

    Fortunately, most American Catholics and Protestants - certainly mainline Protestants - have an ecumenical spirit and seem ready to live in harmony and mutual respect.   

    Real reasons to remain Protestant or Catholic or whatever we are? Family heritage. Early religious schooling. Emotional ties. Comfort level. Marriage/family unity. Agreement with teachings. Even location of church, personality of pastor, where friends attend, etc. Lots of reasons why people choose a faith community, many of them more a matter of the heart than the head.

Very well said!!

 

[Memaw]

**In Genesis 2Moses 20:5 and in Book of Revelation (what’s the short of that? book) Chapter 15 Verse 4 and 5:13b and on many other places, such as Math 4:10 we have the word – as we might find it in

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2005/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20050511_en.html**

as well (I hope).

In the Catechism we find the word in # 2097: To adore God is to acknowledge, in respect and absolute submission, the “nothingness of the creature” who would not exist but for God. To adore God is to praise and exalt him and to humble oneself, as Mary did in the Magnificat, confessing with gratitude that he has done great things and holy is his name. The worship of the one God sets man free from turning in on himself, from the slavery of sin and the idolatry of the world.

In the Book on Revelation we read again in 22:9 that no other person but God alone is to be prayed at – no Angel an not the holiest of all Holies, Mother of Jesus, Mary.

When we pray the Ave Maria or Rosary, we do not …(whatever)… at Maria, but we …(whatever)…

Surely now you know what I mean – but I still don’t know he right word

There must certainly be two different expressions in English too of course.
Just let’s find the two expressions and everybody is happy. Might be “praying at” is right with Mary, but then the other word is relevant in reference to God.

Its all in understanding what we mean when we say we pray “to” Mary. You don’t say your talking at someone, you are talking to someone. so praying, “talking” to Mary is not wrong. Many non-catholics just want to use that as an excuse to find fault with Catholics. It just doesn’t work so they might as well learn to understand what we really mean.

 

[mikew262]

No, mikew, it is not “all interpretation”. Personal interpretation leads to relativism, and relativism to error. On the contrary, God’s revelation is not subject to human interpretation. Truth is what it is, no matter how everyone “interprets”.

" And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father’s only son, full of grace and truth." John 1:14

The Truth is a Person!

Furthermore, Jesus would not suffer what He suffered just so “we will never know who has it right”. Such a statement is contrary to the apostolic teaching.

“I will not leave you orphaned; I am coming to you.”
John 14:18-19

“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.” John 16:12-15

It is the Spirit who guides into all Truth, not our "interpretations’ of what we read.

People are not saved by sincerely “trying” or by living a “good life”.

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God — 9 not the result of works, so that no one may boast.

Well spoken from the “Catholic” point of view. What makes the Catholic interpretation necessarily the right one? Pls don’t use the Holy Spirit as justification. All Christian denominations claim the Holy Spirit as their guide, and I can’t certainly say they are wrong.

As Catholics, are faith tells us our interpretation is correct. However, a faithful Methodist feels his faith tells them theirs is correct. Our “truth” isn’t their “truth”.

The statement I made earlier, **People are not saved by sincerely “trying” or by living a “good life”. ** is exactly what all of us are trying to do. We try to live our faith the best way we can and have good works to demonstrate that effort. Check out the passages in the book of James.

 

[wisdomseeker]

You must have misunderstood me. God covenant is with His children. Wasn’t the old covenant overridden by the new covenant?

What children are you talking about?

you dont seem to quite understand the Covenant.

“Take, eat; this is my body . . . Drink of it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.” (Matt. 26:26-28)
“Take; this is my body . . . This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.” (Mark 14:22, 24)
“This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me . . . This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.” (Luke 22:19-20)
“This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me . . . This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” (1 Cor. 11:24-25)
catholic.com

catholic.com/library/Pillar.asp

:byzsoc:

 

[Memaw]

It’s really up to God. While lecturing me, you seem to have missed that point.

Isn’t that what I said that it is not up to I. I wasn’t lecturing, aren’t we all able to express our thoughts on here. or just you?

 

[Memaw]

Well spoken from the “Catholic” point of view. What makes the Catholic interpretation necessarily the right one? Pls don’t use the Holy Spirit as justification. All Christian denominations claim the Holy Spirit as their guide, and I can’t certainly say they are wrong.

As Catholics, are faith tells us our interpretation is correct. However, a faithful Methodist feels his faith tells them theirs is correct. Our “truth” isn’t their “truth”.

The statement I made earlier, **People are not saved by sincerely “trying” or by living a “good life”. ** is exactly what all of us are trying to do. We try to live our faith the best way we can and have good works to demonstrate that effort. Check out the passages in the book of James.

The Truth is the TRUTH and there can’t be a “your” truth and “my” truth. Jesus IS the TRUTH. A protestant friend of mine once tried that argument with me. He said the truth is whatever you want it to be, and so I said, “John, what day is today?” and he said, “Wednesday” I said, “No, its Monday!” He said, “No, look on the calender.” and I said, “Its Monday and thats the truth cuz thats what I want it to be”. He laughed and said, “I get your point.” Can get ridicules, huh??

 

[wisdomseeker]

Originally Posted by Roy5
TIME FOR SERIOUS ECUMENISM

This business of one church being more Christian than another can become both boring and annoying. My own view is that God doesn’t give a hoot whether we are Roman Catholic or Baptist or Methodist or whatever. Perhaps not even whether we are Jewish or Muslim or Buddhist.

this sounds really good, if you want to give up on the True teachings of the faith. St Paul said. i fought the good fight, i kept the faith…
many have died for this faith.

**As Christ once asked in exasperation: “Why call me Lord, Lord, and do not the things that I say?” (Luke 6:46) He doesn’t look at our denominations or our creeds. Jesus examines our hearts to see whether we follow his commandments to love God and love one another. **

yes. Jesus said to the apostles only. love one another, He never said to love others who dissobey Him or would not listen to the apostles. Jesus said if you and your brother dissagree and cannot solve the problem for yourselves, take to the Church. if you brother doesnt listen treat him as a heathen, a tax collector.
He also said if that town doesnt receive you shake even the dust of your sandals for there will a great punishment for that town.
make no mistake my brother, do not disregard one word spoken by Our Lord.
there you have it.

**All this silly and persistent quibbling over the true meaning of communion or praying to Mary or the authority of the Pope must trouble Christ. He wants his followers to work toward reconciliation, understanding, love of one another, respect for different viewpoints. Why have so many Christians insisted on making their particular expression of faith so narrow and intolerant? When someone has a different insight into matters of faith, why are we so quick to condemn when our response should be: “Interesting. Tell me more”? No, we certainly don’t have to agree, of course, but we need to be respectful rather than dismiss such views as wrong, sinful or heretical. **

agree with you here. the Church should never changes it s doctrine to satify any because they dissagree with the CC or dont like the authority of the Church. it is established by Christ it cannot change.

**Fortunately, most American Catholics and Protestants - certainly mainline Protestants - have an ecumenical spirit and seem ready to live in harmony and mutual respect. **

meaning?

**
Real reasons to remain Protestant or Catholic or whatever we are? Family heritage. Early religious schooling. Emotional ties. Comfort level. Marriage/family unity. Agreement with teachings. Even location of church, personality of pastor, where friends attend, etc. Lots of reasons why people choose a faith community, many of them more a matter of the heart than the head. **

confort zone. fear of finding the Truth, fear of facing adversaties. fear of admitting i was wrong. fear of losing power. all these can keep a man from the Truth.
Jesus said. “if anyone wishes to follow me, he must pick up his cross daily.” what do you think Cross means?

:byzsoc:

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

Its all in understanding what we mean when we say we pray “to” Mary. You don’t say your talking at someone, you are talking to someone. so praying, “talking” to Mary is not wrong. Many non-Catholics just want to use that as an excuse to find fault with Catholics. It just doesn’t work so they might as well learn to understand what we really mean.

**Well, it is of course the same problem world-wide. Protestants say, and I often had to correct this in German-speaking forums, which is easy, because we have two different words for it. It seems, that there is no different word in English for praying, or rather asking a Saint or Mary or anyone in heaven (e.g. our guardian Angel) to intercede before God on one side, and on the other side the other “praying” to God. Surely there is a right word. In my dict. its “to worship God”.

As I mentioned before; in the Apocalypse 15:4 we read: you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed Same book 22:9 an Angel says, as John was about to worship him “Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!” „Praying“ to Mary would be „verehren“ which means adore (I think).

So for he time being, I think the word is to worship. To pray seems to be right – but covering all – whilst worshiping is reserved to God allone in a higher form of praying (?)

In right usage of the two words, in German there is no mix up possible. So we have to keep to explain to Protestants: No – we do not „anbeten“ Maria, but we „verehren“ Maria (Holy Mary). It’s as simple as that (it you are happy enough to speak the right language – German
But then: not even my Protestant Father ever understood until he died in 1977 – (now he knows).
When I a a child put a candle at the statue of Mary in my room, he angry took it away, which hurt that child ever so much.

Thanks Memaw for your heartfelt word!
Bruno-Maria Schulz
**

 

[Roy5]

JOE370 and 'ONE TRUE CHURCH’

 Hi Joe and others:

 A couple quick points on a busy day, each relevant to why all Christians don't embrace Catholicism.

 Contrary to your assertion, **mainline Protestants don't ****consider their denominations the 'true church'**. Did you see the recent Pew poll? I believe 83% of mainline Protestants believe people can attain salvation apart from Christianity. I was encouraged and proud to find that - what was it? 79% of US Catholics said the same. In other words, the vast majority of mainline Protestants and Catholics agree that their faith is not the only faith that is acceptable to God. Those who are inclined to be more stiff-necked are evangelical Protestants as well as such non-Protestants as Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and such - and, I hesitate to add, many who post their extreme views here on Catholic Answers Forum.  

    So many topics to comment on. Just two, briefly. 

    (1) **For most Protestants a major stumbling block in Catholicism is the teaching that the wine and bread become the actual blood and body of Christ**. They regard this as outright superstition that people centuries ago found it easy to believe (other religions were teaching similar ideas, e. g., Mithraism, a major 'rival' of early Christianity). Christ spoke in metaphors often ("I am the door") and they regard the texts re drinking his blood and eating his body as symbolic. Otherwise, the whole idea simply repulses many. Among liberal Protestants the teaching that God the loving Father required the cruel and bloody sacrifice of his only Son to win us salvation is widely questioned. They see it as a rather bizarre role model, too close to child abuse.

     (2) **The notion that the early Christians were united in one Catholic Church is disputed by even a casual reading of early ****church history**. There were dozens of popular 'heresies' -from modalism and Arianism to gnosticism and monophysitism. How many of these were oppressed and their adherents often slaughtered in the name of Jesus? Remember the counsel of St. Thomas Aquinas, that revered doctor of the Church? He said that the Church should deliver heretics over to civil authorities to be executed! Frankly, it is this sort of history that alienated many Protestants for generations. I can recall from childhood how my aged Protestant (Baptist) grandmother was especially disturbed by the 'Syllabus of Errors' of Pius IX which was a sharp attack against democracy, separation of church and state, and other basic American values. Thank God the church seems to have abandoned such views in the 20th century.

 

[awantz]

He might respond , “his Church is the Christian Church” which the Catholics continuously corrupted over the many years, until the Reformation finally happened. Of course, I don’t believe that, but many a non-Catholic Christian does.

We are all part of the Christian Church, whether Catholic, Baptist, or whatever.

 

[awantz]

What children are you talking about?

you dont seem to quite understand the Covenant.

“Take, eat; this is my body . . . Drink of it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.” (Matt. 26:26-28)
“Take; this is my body . . . This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.” (Mark 14:22, 24)
“This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me . . . This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.” (Luke 22:19-20)
“This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me . . . This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” (1 Cor. 11:24-25)
catholic.com

catholic.com/library/Pillar.asp

:byzsoc:

I’m talking about all of God’s children/ all Christians.

You are wrong.

I know many non Catholic Churches that partake in the Eucharist/ Communion.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**and for all this, we must be careful to act in a loving way with each other. Over here in Germany, the country of Luther, if you read in Christian forums, you get the impression, there’s a civil war going on between Catholics and Protestants. But then even inmidst purely cath. Forums, flames go high sometimes, even upon an insulting way.
Let’s just imagine any Saint e.g. Mother Teresa would have been asked a stupid and annoying question. How would they have answered? Let’s try to do alike.
As we are bretheren in God, let’s behave such.
And as I wrote before, Brothers and sisters in God are we all. Every single human on this world, even is this indivudual in his bottomless dulness doesn’t believe it.
**

 

[Hisalone]

**and for all this, we must be careful to act in a loving way with each other. Over here in Germany, the country of Luther, if you read in Christian forums, you get the impression, there’s a civil war going on between Catholics and Protestants. But then even inmidst purely cath. Forums, flames go high sometimes, even upon an insulting way.
**Let’s just imagine any Saint e.g. Mother Teresa would have been asked a stupid and annoying question. How would they have answered? Let’s try to do alike.****As we are bretheren in God, let’s behave such.
And as I wrote before, Brothers and sisters in God are we all. Every single human on this world, even is this indivudual in his bottomless dulness doesn’t believe it.

A good example of a stupid and annoying question is the title of this thread. It is best to ignore it.

 

[Lisdogan]

He might respond , “his Church is the Christian Church” which the Catholics continuously corrupted over the many years, until the Reformation finally happened. Of course, I don’t believe that, but many a non-Catholic Christian does.

Even some Catholics find this interpretation acceptable, given the facts of the Counter-Reformation which had already begun before the Reformation, and the fact that the reputation of Martin Luther is being turned inside out as we speak.

Some Catholics might even believe that all Christians, as children of God, belong to one universal ‘catholic’ Church of Christ, and that it is an error that would offend and sadden Christ that the so-called split still consumes so much more time than it is worth.

Some Catholics might also believe that the bifurcation of the Church into a number of denominations has in fact strengtened Christianity, and prevented Christians from becoming complacent about the nature of Christian belief.

In Christ

 

[Lisdogan]

TIME FOR SERIOUS ECUMENISM

This business of one church being more Christian than another can become both boring and annoying. My own view is that God doesn’t give a hoot whether we are Roman Catholic or Baptist or Methodist or whatever. Perhaps not even whether we are Jewish or Muslim or Buddhist.

He doesn’t look at our denominations or our creeds. Jesus examines our hearts to see whether we follow his commandments to love God and love one another.

No, we certainly don’t have to agree, of course, but we need to be respectful rather than dismiss such views as wrong, sinful or heretical.

Fortunately, most American [and Canadian] Catholics and Protestants - certainly mainline Protestants - have an ecumenical spirit and seem ready to live in harmony and mutual respect.

I cannot say thank you enough for what you have written. This has been in my heart for years. I have converted recently from being a Canadian Convention Baptist (mainstream conservative) to being a Catholic in Africa. What is sorrowful to me is the constant squabbling over matters that, by and large, do not matter, and that do not make one whit of difference to our lives in Christ. To be Christian is to love him, to be his Beloved, as he is our Beloved, to be in him as he is in us, to complete his mission and his suffering.

Christ work through me, Christ stand with me, and Christ be in me. He taught me to trust him, and I do.

In Christ

 

[Lisdogan]

No - People are not saved by sincerely “trying” or by living a “good life”.

Thomas Merton, the beloved modern Trappist and Catholic philosopher who enchanted so many Catholics and Protestants alike wrote:

My Lord God, I have no idea where I am going.
I do not see the road ahead of me.
I cannot know for certain where it will end.
Nor do I really know myself,
and the fact that I think that I am following your will
does not mean that I am actually doing so.
But I believe that the desire to please you
does in fact please you.
And I hope I have that desire in all that I am doing.
I hope that I will never do anything
apart from that desire.
And I know that if I do this
you will lead me by the right road
though I may know nothing about it.
Therefore, will I trust you always
though I may seem to be lost
and in the shadow of death.
I will not fear, you are ever with me,
and you will never leave me to face my perils alone.

I remember this daily, as I try to discern his will.

In Christ

 

[Lisdogan]

Even tho there were 3, “bad Popes”, they didn’t do any harm to the teaching of the Catholic Church. They may have sinned in their private life but they did NO harm to the Doctrine of the Catholic Faith. The Holy Spirit would NEVER allow that to happen, no matter how sinful a Pope may be. The Pope is Infallible, not impeccable. To me, that is proof positive that The Holy Spirit does and always will protect the teaching of the Catholic Church.

How can your opinion be at the same time ‘proof positive’? It does not follow.

In Christ

 

[Lisdogan]

Originally Posted by Roy5
TIME FOR SERIOUS ECUMENISM

confort zone. fear of finding the Truth, fear of facing adversaties. fear of admitting i was wrong. fear of losing power. all these can keep a man from the Truth.
Jesus said. “if anyone wishes to follow me, he must pick up his cross daily.” what do you think Cross means?

:byzsoc:

Oh rats. This is such an uncreative, stick-in-the-mud, blinkered response to a thoughtful posting. If you want to be obsessive about the Truth, then you have to be rather more thoughtful about how you know, why you believe, there is an Absolute Truth out there that has been given to this particular little conglomeration of creatures in a far-flung corner for our multiverse.

That is the really interesting question. If you can hypothesise with some degree of capacity, rather than quoting blindly from the Bible and Catholic Tradition as well as the papacy and the community of saints, then we can take this obsessive argument somewhere.

I am a Catholic. As it stands I am embarrassed by this harping on one note: there is so much more to think about! GThere are so many positive ways of moving forward at a time when it is important for this world to move forward.

In Christ