If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic?

[CalmDownWisWins]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CalmDownWisWins
If you can’t accept that there are basic reasons which we can agree to disagree about, then your time here is utterly wasted, other than as an exercise in simply annoying people you hate.

Every now and then I get as caught up in polemics, just as many others here do too. But most of the time it’s in reaction to a post or a section of a post like yours above.

I understand what your church teaches and reject it. I don’t hate you or anyone else on this board and for you to insinuate that I do is ridiculous.

It is an act of hate to leave another person unclear about what it is that you disagree with them about.

I’m not insunuating that you hate anyone. It’s just that so many people here refuse to make themselves clear simply as a “knife thrust” (a parting shot), which is hurtful and hateful.

The reason that most do this, of course, is that they are unclear themselves as to their reasoning about what they are “defending”, and when pressed can’t “defend” it very well, get frustrated, and do that hateful thing which is leaving their partner “hanging” with the impression that they haven’t done enough to make themselves clear, and have done a disservice to their now absent partner, whose retreated in a huff.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CalmDownWisWins
It is not Christian to not agree to disagree…

I have no idea how you came to this conclusion. Your statement taken at face value would contradict much of what Jesus and the apostles did as recorded in the scripture.

On the Christian’s part, they are to do all they can to help others, and when you “withhold of yourself” such as to deprive your “partner” (be it enemy or elsewise) of your assistance when you needn’t have is to not be charitable, and to “not be charitable” is to be un-Christian.

I’d REALLY like to know how you interpret, “It is not Christian to not agree to disagree”, contradicts scripture in spirit or word?

Looking forward to your answer on that one.

If you mean we can still be charitable in our disagreement, I am with you 100%.

Do you now understand what I meant?

 

[nilofc]

No.

It’s not “open Communion.” It’s open to those who live in the covenant of Christ.

The Holy Eucharist is a sacrament…much like marriage but it is God you are in communion with.

You don’t consumate your relationship with your girlfriend and have sex with her right away just because you love her. You have to get married first and make your relationship be blessed by God. Same with the Holy Communion…you can not have it right away without being a part of the Holy Catholic Church. We need to be part of this Church to be married to Christ. Remember, the Church is the bride of Christ.

Being married is to be “one”, as Jesus is one with the Church, with Him as the head and us as the body.

And like marriage, it is not a one time deal where you go through the sacrament and say “I do” then that’s it, that’s the wedding part. Marriage is life-long. So you need to be married to be part of this church in order to continue to receive the body and blood, soul and divinity of our Lord in the most Holy Eucharist.

Although the reception if the Holy Eucharist is limited to the members of the Church, the invitation to be married to Christ is open to everyone. Talk to your priest regarding RCIA and we’ll welcome you with open arms.

It’s an invitation to receive Jesus fully and it’s an invitation to be open to the fullness of the truth.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CalmDownWisWins
Catholics believe that they are in the “place” which holds the fullest measure of the truth, not that they are in the most convenient “denomination” due to locale, or due to “all denominations being esssentially like all the rest”.

Why would you not search out and find the most “nutritious food” available?

I know that is what Catholics believe. However I am not a Catholic and can not just take your word for it. Otherwise one can get me to believe anything.

I don’t ask you to believe me at all, nor the Church, without proving it’s truth to yourself sufficiently to make a definitive decision (a final and irrevocable one) that THE SOURCE of the Church IS in fact what She says it is.

Once you’ve proven (not provisionally but absolutely and finally) that God is the source of the Church then NOTHING that any person does within the human structure of the Church, no evil performed by them, past present or future, will drive you from the Church as the Body of Christ, which is the basic viceral fear of all protestants.

But, we can only help you understand the Church, and can’t provide any “proofs” that Her source is in fact God, as that must come from within yourself. The more you really want to most fully be in communion with God, the more vehemence you’ll exhibit in digging into the true facts and details of the Church.

When I survey the assorted denominations within Christianity, I believe a logical starting point is to view them as having equal stature. Then you adjust your opinion of them only if given sufficient reason and evidence to do so.

That is a fair and logical starting point, but over time if you still consider them “equal” (in terms of what criteria?) you haven’t “adjusted” your opinion but retained it, and have “stalled in the entryway” instead of being fed in one of the “rooms”.

Also, considering the “First Church of Christ Fisherman” down the street with the Church (Catholic) is an interesting “intial condition”.

The answer to your second question is “because I don’t have any good reason to leave where I am”. Otherwise you can get me to change churches anytime a new church with shiny bells and whistles comes to my area. Too many folks do this; I am not one of them.

That’s fair indeed! So, why are you here?

Apparently, you’re either curious (unsatisfied with current conditions) or here to cause mischief.

Which is it? I’m voting for the former, but our behavior proves out our motivations eventually.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CalmDownWisWins
The question really isn’t “Why you are not a Catholic?”, but rather,“Why are you where you are?”

This is ALSO a very VERY good question that (especially cradle-type) Catholics should ask themselves daily!

Well “Why I am what I am” ultimately goes back to who was responsible for my conversion to Christ. It all ultimately flows from that.

Hmm, so you have no responsibility as to your PRESENT/FUTURE religious “affiliation”? It’s all been determined by your “converters”, and by your own “comfort levels”?

What did Christ say about getting too comfortable?

Believe it or not, I went through that same exercise a while back and concluded that the answer was because this is the path that the Lord Jesus Christ had for my life.

If the Catholics were responsible for my conversion to Christ I undoubtedly would be Catholic today.

Ironically, if I were Catholic and going through the exercise of checking out Protestants, I am quite sure that I would conclude that I would not have sufficient reason to switch.

So there is no chance whatsoever to your “converting”?

Why are you here? When you say that if you were presently a Catholic you are “quite sure” that you wouldn’t “switch”, you betray your lukewarmness and relativism.

Wouldn’t it be wiser to do what is more advantageous to you in your search for God than to “not be bothered” because “it’s just too hard and they’re all the same anyway”?

 

[Publisher]

In reading many of the threads on this fourm, I have found that Catholics usually want to provide reasons why those of us from other traditions are not in their fold. They range from “ignorance”, “pridefullness”, “it’s too hard being Catholic”, “ignorant of church history”, “they don’t know the Bible”, “deceived by Satan” to name just a few.

Protestants provide similar reasons why Catholics stay Catholic. We simply do not understand one another, nor do we have any idea of the faith journey many of us have made…we are very narrow sighted.

For the most part, we have received such joy from our traditions, we want to share, and when coupled by some with a belief that there is some threat of eternal damnation for those who do not subscribe to our own personal faith, we just can’t understand why someone would not want to have a better chance of not burning in hell by being part of the “true church”.

Some of us make wild claims that those not in our particular faith tradition somehow “offend God”…as though God relects our own spiritual smallness and emotional responses.

We tend to “speak down to” and “speak past” one another, and profess humility in doing so…I think “pride” is at work here too…but not becasue one doesn’t believe a certain doctrine or dogma one of us holds as indespensible to one’s eternal life.

When some of us try to explain our beliefs we are told we are “revisionists” or that we hold a “relativism” that simply doesn’t exist…just because one doesn’t understand another’s belief system…doesn’t make it one of “pick and chose” or “relativistic”.

My reasons for being a Quaker runs deep. The understanding of the gospel from my Quaker viewpoint has met my deepest and most profound needs. Through Friends worship I have met the Living Christ by partaking of communion “after the manner of Friends”. I have experienced the Real Presence in worship as He has moved through our Meeting House and touched each in the Gathered Meeting. I have sensed the Liviing Word spoken in that “still small voice” as our hearts have been drawn into the Living Silence as a holy hush and expectantcy moved over us.

The Church does exist as a physical manifestation in it’s visible form among those whom God has redeemed and seeks to use as leaven in our world…but we are joined together in that mystical uniion through the baptism of the Spirit and experience Him as Real Presence in our midst during corporate worship.

I am not ignorant of church history nor am I ignorant of the ECF’s…I simply have not found compelling evidence in the writings of early Christianity to accept a single organization established by Jesus…Jesus called a people to be his Body in this world…not an organization.

As a Quaker I do not subscribe to “sola scriptura” so that cannot be the reason of rejection of the Catholic church…I find great beauty in liturgical worship, I have participated in Orthodox, Catholic, Episcopal, and Lutheran liturgies…but I am most moved by the simple “liturgy of silence” and the utter simplicity of Friends worship.

I have even used a “chokti” during worship and in my private devotions use and read “Imitation of Christ”, “Way of the Pilgrim”, “Practicing the Presence of God”, “Dark night of the Soul”, I’ve used the “Book of Common Prayer”, along with “Testament of Devotion”, “Book of Quaker Saints”, “The Eternal Promise” coupled with Bible reading and prayer and meditation in the early morning hours before I leave for work.

Simple reason why I am not Catholic…being a Quaker has brought me peace, joy, and an experience with the Presence I have never experienced any where else…

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

In reading many of the threads on this fourm, I have found that Catholics usually want to provide reasons why those of us from other traditions are not in their fold.

That is a true observation on your part, and I would concur that that is what happens, but it is Catholic “policy” that non-Catholics ARE in our fold, just in a “more distant from the fullness of communion with God” sort of way.

…
We simply do not understand one another, nor do we have any idea of the faith journey many of us have made…we are very narrow sighted.

Not so much “narrow sighted” as impatient and defensive, which certainly looks like “narrow sightedness”.

We don’t understand each other because we don’t make ourselves clear and/or we don’t “listen to understand”, we get impatient about the “thick headedness” of our partner, and see every request for us clarify ourselves (our beliefs) as an attack, especially if we aren’t clear orselves about our own beliefs.

…

My reasons for being a Quaker runs deep. The understanding of the gospel from my Quaker viewpoint has met my deepest and most profound needs. Through Friends worship I have met the Living Christ by partaking of communion “after the manner of Friends”. I have experienced the Real Presence in worship as He has moved through our Meeting House and touched each in the Gathered Meeting. I have sensed the Liviing Word spoken in that “still small voice” as our hearts have been drawn into the Living Silence as a holy hush and expectantcy moved over us.

And, I dare say, this behavior (worship) would be accepted within the Church (Catholic). It is a subset of the Church’s bounty. It IS sufficient for salvation, but not the fullness of what is available for salvation, but the fullness need not be used, because NO ONE uses the full fullness of the Church’s bounty!

Would one bringing this worship into “full communion” with the Church have to accept things that it considers “unecessary”? Yes, but that is the single thing keeping Christians, and anyone else for that matter, “apart”.

The Church does exist as a physical manifestation in it’s visible form among those whom God has redeemed and seeks to use as leaven in our world…but we are joined together in that mystical uniion through the baptism of the Spirit and experience Him as Real Presence in our midst during corporate worship.

Amen! You understate what the Church is, but any level of statement if held sincerely is correct, if not thorough.

…

Simple reason why I am not Catholic…being a Quaker has brought me peace, joy, and an experience with the Presence I have never experienced any where else…

And one day your extreme beauty, and all that is beautiful in all cultures which coincide with worship of the True God, will be an enormous joy to welcome into the Church who is the Body of Christ in the most fullness of communion possible.

 

[Ginger2]

…a vast majority … left their Faith, turned their back on God (to live)a promiscuous lifestyle

Many of these “on-fire” Christians … would probably be Catholic today if it wasn’t for the three or four marriages,

Why aren’t you Catholic? Tell the truth.

OK, you got me, I left the Catholic Church to whore around for 3 years…or was it four? I was drinking so much, I guess I lost track of time.

I stopped drinking when my 4th husband threatened to divorce me, but then I left him for the pool boy.



What do you think would happen if a Protestant started a thread like this? What if I had said that most men who become Priests do it to gain trusted access to little boys?

:tsktsk:

I think it’s time for me to leave this forum. The judgemental, self-righteous, and moral superior attitude is beginning to make me ill.

 

[kotek]

Last Spring I “reverted” back to the Catholic Church after being away for some time. After I reverted I read the Catechism plus Ludwig Ott’s “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma” the “Canons of the Council of Trent” and some of the Catholic Apologists. I also read the Bible to compare it with those Catholic books. Starting this past Fall I also read “The Book of Concord” (Lutheran) and “The Westminster Confession of Faith” (Reformed). I kept comparing all these with the Bible. I also read legitimate Church history from all sides (not Jack Chic rubbish or Dave Hunt’s nonsense). I left the Catholic Church right after Christmas because I simply cannot agree with the Catholic Church on many dogmas. I feel that the Catholic Church has a wrong view of the Atonement in that the Biblical position is that Christ was a Penal Substitutionary sacrifice for sin, IE that on the cross Jesus took my sins and guilt and punishment in my stead and died the death for sin I deserve. The other position that I feel the Catholic Church is wrong on is Justification by Faith, only by faith and trust in Christ and what He did for me can save me, there is NOTHING I can do to “Merit” Justification EVEN IN A “STATE OF GRACE”. All my “meritorious good works done with grace” are worthless to contribute to my salvation or “justification” because even with grace they can NEVER live up to God’s absolute standards of Holiness and Perfection. I understand what the Catholic Church teaches, I just don’t agree with it because it is simply not Biblical.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

What do you think would happen if a Protestant started a thread like this? What if I had said that most men who become Priests do it to gain trusted access to little boys?

Oh, come on!

This thread asserts that people who leave the Catholic Church do not do so for doctrinal reasons, but instead emotional/personal ones. NO COMPARISON!!!

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

I left the Catholic Church right after Christmas because I simply cannot agree with the Catholic Church on many dogmas. I feel that the Catholic Church has a wrong view of the Atonement in that the Biblical position is that Christ was a Penal Substitutionary sacrifice for sin, IE that on the cross Jesus took my sins and guilt and punishment in my stead and died the death for sin I deserve. The other position that I feel the Catholic Church is wrong on is Justification by Faith, only by faith and trust in Christ and what He did for me can save me, there is **NOTHING I can do to “Merit” Justification EVEN IN A “STATE OF GRACE”. **All my “meritorious good works done with grace” are worthless to contribute to my salvation or “justification” because even with grace they can NEVER live up to God’s absolute standards of Holiness and Perfection. I understand what the Catholic Church teaches, I just don’t agree with it because it is simply not Biblical.

We don’t believe that, either…

If you truly believe, then good works will be implied. If you do not do works, then it is evident you do not believe.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

…
What do you think would happen if a Protestant started a thread like this?

I’d think he was pretty accurate, as the premise is that a CATHOLIC left the Church because he wanted “more freedom” which defacto means “freedom to sin”, if not just a TAD hyperbolic.

What if I had said that most men who become Priests do it to gain trusted access to little boys?

I’d say you are quite inaccurate by objective measure.

Why would you want to equate an accurate statement with an inaccurate one?

I think it’s time for me to leave this forum. The judgemental, self-righteous, and moral superior attitude is beginning to make me ill.

That’s interesting, as by asking us to equate “accuracy with inaccuracy” you sound rather judgemental (your “judgement” is posed as true), self-righteous (your “righteousness” in posing logical contradiction as truth is groundless), and morally superior (your “morality” of lying is SUPERIOR to ours!?) to me!

Perhaps you do need a break.

 

[mozart-250]

So, why are you here?

I ask myself that question quite often.

Probably because arguing Christianity over the internet is a bad habit of mine I can’t seem to break.

 

[mozart-250]

Why are you here? When you say that if you were presently a Catholic you are “quite sure” that you wouldn’t “switch”, you betray your lukewarmness and relativism.

If anything I think I betray my tendency to be loyal to where I am at and to where God has led me.

If I were Catholic, this same innate sense of being loyal to where God has me would lead me to remain Catholic.

Too many Protestants change churches at the drop of a hat.

I am not one of them.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

I ask myself that question quite often.

Probably because arguing Christianity over the internet is a bad habit of mine I can’t seem to break.

A “**bad **habit”?

Something is holding you to your habit. What “comfort” do you satisfy with this habit?

Is it the “partial filling of your God-shaped hole”, or is it bringing chaos and doubt to the weak?

Care to guess the respective “authors” of the comforts posited above?

 

[mozart-250]

So there is no chance whatsoever to your “converting”?

I would say unlikely (but not impossible) as long as I live in this locale. I am quite loyal to the local body of Christ where God has me. I could only see myself moving from where I am to another church in this area if (a) my present church changes dramatically from what it is (b) very unusual personal circumstances.

Should we ever move locations, who knows.

If becoming Catholic means adopting the arrogant attitude that I see here with some, no thanks.

 

[mozart-250]

A “**bad **habit”?

Something is holding you to your habit. What “comfort” do you satisfy with this habit?

Is it the “partial filling of your God-shaped hole”, or is it bringing chaos and doubt to the weak?

Care to guess the respective “authors” of the comforts posited above?

OK…I confess. You win.

I am here to try to get all the Catholics here to come out of the whore of Babylon and the great harlot of Rome, to forsake your false religion, to get smart and get saved, and to join a true Bible believing church like mine.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

If anything I think I betray my tendency to be loyal to where I am at and to where God has led me.

By what “authority” do you know God leads you here or there?

If I were Catholic, this same innate sense of being loyal to where God has me would lead me to remain Catholic.

If you were Catholic this would be another universe. You have no way of knowing that where you are is EQUIVALENT to where you could be, and can’t logically say that “one is as good as the other” without basing that solely on RELATIVISM.

Too many Protestants change churches at the drop of a hat.

I am not one of them.

I’m not saying that you should change, or that anyone should change. I’m only saying that basing where you are on “inertia and relativism” is a lie, and a sin that has massive consequences.

Know WHY you are where you are in detail. If you don’t, or if the reason is a sin, then God is saying to pick up that cross.

(( My personal opinion is that only the Church [Catholic] allows one to infinitely explore the details of WHY one is where one is without running dry, but what do I know!? ))

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

…

If becoming Catholic means adopting the arrogant attitude that I see here with some, no thanks.

If becoming human means adopting the attitude of those nasty human who murder and rape and torture through the ages, then NO THANKS!

…oh, wait.

To base matters of eternity on whim is unwise.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

OK…I confess. You win.

I am here to try to get all the Catholics here to come out of the whore of Babylon and the great harlot of Rome, to forsake your false religion, to get smart and get saved, and to join a true Bible believing church like mine.

Really?

Yoinks!

But seriously, is it the “hole filling” or the “scandalizing” comfort that most appeals to you?