If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic?

[mgrfin]

Do you need someone to help you with Dei Verbum?

What sections are you having problems with, in particular?

We are all here to help, and if not one of us, maybe 'Ask an Apologist" can help.

You have a solid day, Power.

peace

 

[VARC]

Do you need someone to help you with Dei Verbum?

What sections are you having problems with, in particular?

We are all here to help, and if not one of us, maybe 'Ask an Apologist" can help.

You have a solid day, Power.

peace

Did you need some help with Providentissimus Deus? You obviously deny Pope Leo’s teaching. Let me know if you need help I’ll bolden the points that condemn you

 

[ralphinal]

May I please step in. Both of you return to your corners, and I will resume the bout in a minute.

The Bible cannot be used as a referance for science or math. That said, it is error free in every way related to faith and morals. It may very well be without error in science and math, but it was not written for that purpose. The Bible is full of allegory and imagery. It was also written so that people from the Bronze age could understand it as well as people from the Space Age. As a history referance, the Bible was not composed in teh systematic way taht modern history books are written. The “literal” history (dates, exact numbers of troups) are not as important as the message.

Now, if that does not help anyone, both of you may resume calling each other heretics and such. It is rather funny from my point of view.

 

[VARC]

May I please step in. Both of you return to your corners, and I will resume the bout in a minute.

The Bible cannot be used as a referance for science or math. That said, it is error free in every way related to faith and morals. It may very well be without error in science and math, but it was not written for that purpose. The Bible is full of allegory and imagery. It was also written so that people from the Bronze age could understand it as well as people from the Space Age. As a history referance, the Bible was not composed in teh systematic way taht modern history books are written. The “literal” history (dates, exact numbers of troups) are not as important as the message.

Now, if that does not help anyone, both of you may resume calling each other heretics and such. It is rather funny from my point of view.

I agree with you that the message is more important than the specifics. But Pope Leo clearly stated that every word is inspired so everything, history, geography, sceince,etc that it touches is without error. That was Leo’s position anyway.

 

[Pwrlftr]

Maybe it’s because I am sitting upright, and he is prone in his tomb .

peace

Okay, that could be. Good answer

 

[whatisthetruth]

WHATISTHETRUTH:

So, you believe every word in the bible, … It is all inspired, word for word, and infallibly true?
Is that what you believe?
peace

Yes I do. Did you expect me to say no?
I believe by faith in God,
Do I understand how events happened in the bible? absolutely not all the time.

My question to you,

Mgrfin, Do you recieve ashes on Ash Wednesday?

yes ___ no ____

If yes, then

If you do not believe Adam was formed from earth,

is the priest

lying to you

or

**telling you the truth **

when he states

“From ashes you were formed, to ashes you will return”

(I am not sure of the exact wording but you know what I mean)

Please answer all my questions in # 678.
I have respected you in answering your questions with no holding back as you requested of me.

Please, from your heart… no link references

Is that too much to ask?

mgrfin, and everybody else,
in all due respect, I said this before and I will say it again.

If all of us were standing at different corners of an intersection,

some at the west corner
some at the east corner
some at the south corner
some at the north corner

and as we were standing there we witnessed a multi vehicle accident right in the middle of the intersection where we were standing.

All witnesses (us) turned in our reports to the police on what we saw happen right before our eyes.

There is no way that all the reports will read the same, however, I am sure that the police can draw at least the following conclusions…

There was an accident on a certain day at a certain time.
The cars involved is evident by the damage sustained

The problem for police is trying to figure out how it happened, not did it happen

In all due respect,

I have no clue

how God breathed into the dirt and formed man,
I believe it happened

Or removed a rib in Adam’s sleep and made woman
I believe it happened

Or Moses standing at the red sea and the waters parting
I believe it happened

Or a great fish swollowed Jonah for three days and eventually spit him out
I believe it happened

or 3 people were thrown into a fiery furnance and not scorched not even touched by the flames. And when the furnance was looked into, there was a 4th person present
I believe it happened.

Or that Jesus after all the torture, flogging, beating, whipping, kicking and after that being forced to carry that heavy cross.
It is a wonder Jesus did not die on the way to calvary.
I believe it happened.

Or Jesus lay in a tomb dead for three days and then rose from the dead
I believe it happened.

Or Jesus in human form, (not being levitated…thats magic) but ascended in to heaven before witneses
I believe it happened.

Can we as Christians, discuss our differences with respect one of another.

If we all believed in the same thing we would not be separated.

I got my hair cut today and in the shop a religious conversation broke out. I was surprised to hear a Roman Catholic say,

“It does not matter what religion you are as long as you have God in your heart and let Him lead you.
All I can do is respect others for what they believe”

Friends, in our conversations, can we try not to make our words come across that the other person has no foundation to believe in what they do or that they are stupid or worse yet… having the “I am always right, you are wrong” attitude. I am talking to myself too.

Example…my baptism experience.

I shared my baptism story, because I was asked to explain baptism by immersion.

I receive comments like…

I do not find any place that says the the person being baptized was immersed.

I gave you verses on why I believe what I do about immersion

baptism of the eunuch it reads they both went down into the water and he was baptized. He could have been immersed he could have knelt down and bowed his head

and Phillip could have cupped the water in his hands to pour over his head.

You right he could have

Did they both go under the water?

I believe yes

I was not there so I do not know what was done.
I don’t know I was not there.

niether was I, that is faith my friend.

The catholic Church teach that both the pouring or immersion is acceptable.

It is the act of submission to God that is important.

Which a baby cant do, and a parent I believe can not make that decision for the baby

thank you

God bless you,

truth

 

[VARC]

whatisthetruth

you have got to shorten your posts. The last one was way to long. It doesn’t help your position to go on and on in a single post. People lose interest before they get through it all. Just a friendly tip

 

[mgrfin]

whatisthetruth;:
Yours is a ‘stream of consciousness’ post.

It is not on topic, and so I am not interested in answering most of it.

As for Scripture questions, refer to Dei Verbum.

If you want to believe that God made man out of the slime of the earth, you just right ahead and believe it. It makes a nice story around the campsite.

I don’t believe we were created that way. I believe at a certain time, God entered in and created humans. How, I don’t know.

We certainly have been around for millions of years, not six thousand, or 12 thousand as you get out of the bible simple story.

Bible stories in no way shake my faith in God, our Creator, however I give him a little more credit than that.

It’s “Remember, man, dost thou art, and into dust thou shalt return”, and I believe that, and I believe on the last day my body will be reunited with my soul for the Last Judgment.

Just the important facts, thats all. The rest makes a nice take for the people in Tennesee.

peace

 

[whatisthetruth]

thanks varc and mgrfin

blessings,

truth

 

[VARC]

Yours is a ‘stream of consciousness’ post.

It is not on topic, and so I am not interested in answering most of it.

As for Scripture questions, refer to Dei Verbum.

If you want to believe that God made man out of the slime of the earth, you just right ahead and believe it. It makes a nice story around the campsite.

I don’t believe we were created that way. I believe at a certain time, God entered in and created humans. How, I don’t know.

We certainly have been around for millions of years, not six thousand, or 12 thousand as you get out of the bible simple story.

Bible stories in no way shake my faith in God, our Creator, however I give him a little more credit than that.

It’s “Remember, man, dost thou art, and into dust thou shalt return”, and I believe that, and I believe on the last day my body will be reunited with my soul for the Last Judgment.

Just the important facts, thats all. The rest makes a nice take for the people in Tennesee.

peace

You still have yet to answer to Pope Leo XIII

But it is absolutely wrong and forbidden, either to narrow inspiration to certain parts only of Holy Scripture, or to admit that the sacred writer has erred. For the system of those who, in order to rid themselves of these difficulties, do not hesitate to concede that divine inspiration regards the things of faith and morals, and nothing beyond, because (as they wrongly think) in a question of the truth or falsehood of a passage, we should consider not so much what God has said as the reason and purpose which He had in mind in saying it-this system cannot be tolerated. For all the books which the Church receives as sacred and canonical, are written wholly and entirely, with all their parts, at the dictation of the Holy Ghost; and so far is it from being possible that any error can co-exist with inspiration, that inspiration not only is essentially incompatible with error, but excludes and rejects it as absolutely and necessarily as it is impossible that God Himself, the supreme Truth, can utter that which is not true. This is the ancient and unchanging faith of the Church, solemnly defined in the Councils of Florence and of Trent, and finally confirmed and more expressly formulated by the Council of the Vatican.

You shouldn’t attempt to tell protestants to believe the pope if you yourself are not willing to do so

 

[whatisthetruth]

Hi all,

We have discussed our differences with the hope of understanding each other better.

I know we all love Jesus, I would be interested in a special way Jesus has shown how much He loves you.

I invite you to post in my
Shine Jesus Shine thread

Thank you

God bless.

I look forward to your testimonies of our Lord

Truth

 

[qui_est_ce]

You still have yet to answer to Pope Leo XIII

But it is absolutely wrong and forbidden, either to narrow inspiration to certain parts only of Holy Scripture, or to admit that the sacred writer has erred. For the system of those who, in order to rid themselves of these difficulties, do not hesitate to concede that divine inspiration regards the things of faith and morals, and nothing beyond, because (as they wrongly think) in a question of the truth or falsehood of a passage, we should consider not so much what God has said as the reason and purpose which He had in mind in saying it-this system cannot be tolerated. For all the books which the Church receives as sacred and canonical, are written wholly and entirely, with all their parts, at the dictation of the Holy Ghost; and so far is it from being possible that any error can co-exist with inspiration, that inspiration not only is essentially incompatible with error, but excludes and rejects it as absolutely and necessarily as it is impossible that God Himself, the supreme Truth, can utter that which is not true. This is the ancient and unchanging faith of the Church, solemnly defined in the Councils of Florence and of Trent, and finally confirmed and more expressly formulated by the Council of the Vatican.

You shouldn’t attempt to tell protestants to believe the pope if you yourself are not willing to do so

Having said all that. Catholics accept the Bible LITERALLY. The flooding of the whole world could mean the whole world as Noah understood it. Does this mean North and South America and all the Native Americans too? We don’t know.

Numbers had special meaning to the Jews, for example, 7 is the number of perfection/infinity. Therefore we are to forgive our brother INFINITELY, not just 70x7, as the literalist would claim.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_symbolism#The_symbolic_values_of_numbers

John 21:11
So Simon Peter went over and dragged the net ashore full of one hundred fifty-three large fish. Even though there were so many, the net was not torn.

Because the known number of the species of fish AT THAT time was 153. The exact number 153 is probably meant to have a symbolic, meaning in relation to the apostles’ universal mission.

One must understand the AUDIENCE, and the culture in order to understand Scripture.

If Moses (and many cultures of the day) said people were created out of clay, why do you assume Moses meant this literally? Clay was used for everything from cooking utensils to writing. Moses did not know about DNA, does this mean that DNA was not at work?

When God says

*Isaiah 49:16 (New International Version)

See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands;
your walls are ever before me.*
Does this mean that God took a pen and literally WROTE our names on His palms? God does not have a body. It means God loves us.

To use a metaphor from today’s English. I could say, “It is literally raining cats and dogs.” Am I in error, because it’s really raining water, and not animals?

 

[ckonrad]

If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic?

Are you ready for some truth; most people don’t like the truth so much?

The reason I asked this question is that I find many Christians somewhat disingenuous when it comes to the real reason or reasons that they are not Catholic or are no longer Catholic.

I feel that many of the Catholic dissenters here who love to quote Bible verses and argue against Catholicism have a personal reason for not being Catholic and not a biblical reason. That is why you can never get anywhere with these people. I have also found this to be true in my real-life contacts and conversations with Catholic dissenters.

For example, a vast majority of people I have met over the years who say that they left the Catholic Church, for this reason or that, it turns out, had no religion in their lives what so ever, for many years.

They didn’t leave the Catholic Church on Sunday to become a “Born-Again” on Monday. They left the Catholic Church on Sunday and became a “Born-Again” twenty or thirty years later.

They left their Faith, turned their back on God and did as they pleased, without guilt, what a life.

They where having “fun” living a promiscuous lifestyle and guess what the guilt finally catches up with them (sin has a way of doing that, don’t you know). They were just full of sin and at the point in which they felt it was time to “go back to church” they discovered that the Roman Catholic Church (actually that God) had a problem with their previous years of bad behavior and now their existed a hurdle or two to overcome and confession can be pretty humbling.

One thing leads to another and before you know it, these same people are now “former Catholics” and bible scholars, not to mention an authority on the Catholic religion, almost over-night. “It’s a miracle!”

It’s not a miracle, it’s disingenuous and hypocritical. Moreover, arguing now against Catholicism is a way for them to have God on their terms instead of His terms and to make them feel better about themselves. There isn’t’ anything wrong with experiencing guilt. We all sin and we all feel guilt, it is the human condition, welcome to life.

Here is some more reality; Many of these “on-fire” Christians who are bound and determined to save all us Catholics, it turns out, if the truth be known, would probably be Catholic today if it wasn’t for the three or four marriages, which occurred in the interim period, during their “non practicing, Christians years”, before they were on fire…

I also know of many other personal rather than biblical reasons why many are not Catholic, however there are too many to list here. Don’t get me wrong, I love all my Christian Brothers, but like an alcoholic, you have to admit you have a problem before you can seek a cure.

**Why aren’t you Catholic? Tell the truth. **

amen, that was a good post i used to be one of those people you speak of until i ran out of my own steam.

 

[qui_est_ce]

amen, that was a good post i used to be one of those people you speak of until i ran out of my own steam.

Tell us your story.

 

[whatisthetruth]

Hi, ckonrad

I am one of those people you speak of.
I am not coming back.
Here are two of the reasons why I am not.

In all due respect, I will answer your question,

Why aren’t you Catholic? Tell the truth.

For 1, lets start with this comment…

I feel that many of the Catholic dissenters here who love to quote Bible verses and argue against Catholicism have a personal reason for not being Catholic and not a biblical reason.

I do not have a personal reasonal in the sense I keep it to myself. One reason I am not Roman Catholic is we interpret bible verses differently.

One verse especially

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Please explain to me why catholics do not believe eternal life is a gift God is offering which one can accept, by faith right now and be 100% sure of their own salvation.

For example, When I lay my head on my pillow every night, I know that if I should die in my sleep, I know for sure I will wake up in heaven for eternity and that is because of my faith in God’s word and promise, especially Romans 6:23

ckonrad, if you were to die in your sleep, are you sure you will spend eternity in heaven?

Yes__________

No___________

Looking forward to your response

2nd reason I am not Roman Catholic even if I wanted to be…

Give me one good reason I should come back if I wanted to especially hearing a comment like the one you just made.

They left their Faith,

I left Roman Catholicism after the first 30 years of my life

turned their back on God

I always believed in God, I never turned my back on him, why would you suggest that?

and did as they pleased, without guilt,

“without guilt”???

Wow!! what an assumption.

If only you knew how much I was tearing up spiritually not having a church to call home bfore God finally led me home.

what a life.

What a nerve!!!, suggesting “what a life”.

And what do you mean by that comment “what a life”??

Please tell.

**Is that your representation of a loving God?

Would you feel welcomed if people were talking about you like that? **

If that is how the Roman Catholic faithful make people feel welcomed, no thank you, I do not want it.

I am sorry, but you hit a raw nerve and if I didn’t say anything you probably would never know.

By the way, you do not need to apologize to me, I am not the One Whom you offended.

If you really believe I turned my back on God, please click on my letter in my signature and check out some of my threads in the letter.

I would be interested in your comment then.

When will the arrogance, assumptions, pointing fingers, judgement etc etc etc STOP, WHEN??

When will we start to work hand in hand as brothers and sisters in Christ’s love and present a loving environment to the outside unbelieving world.

Why sould they come home to a fighting Christian family?
What is so different about us than them?

I am speaking to me as well as you

God bless us all with His grace

truth

 

[Jimmy_B]

Hi, ckonrad

I am one of those people you speak of.
I am not coming back.
Here are two of the reasons why I am not.

In all due respect, I will answer your question,

For 1, lets start with this comment…

I do not have a personal reasonal in the sense I keep it to myself. One reason I am not Roman Catholic is we interpret bible verses differently.

One verse especially

Please explain to me why catholics do not believe eternal life is a gift God is offering which one can accept, by faith right now and be 100% sure of their own salvation.

For example, When I lay my head on my pillow every night, I know that if I should die in my sleep, I know for sure I will wake up in heaven for eternity and that is because of my faith in God’s word and promise, especially Romans 6:23

ckonrad, if you were to die in your sleep, are you sure you will spend eternity in heaven?

Yes__________

No___________

Looking forward to your response

2nd reason I am not Roman Catholic even if I wanted to be…

Give me one good reason I should come back if I wanted to especially hearing a comment like the one you just made.

I left Roman Catholicism after the first 30 years of my life

I always believed in God, I never turned my back on him, why would you suggest that?

“without guilt”???

Wow!! what an assumption.

If only you knew how much I was tearing up spiritually not having a church to call home bfore God finally led me home.

What a nerve!!!, suggesting “what a life”.

And what do you mean by that comment "what a life"??

Please tell.

**Is that your representation of a loving God? **

**Would you feel welcomed if people were talking about you like that? **

If that is how the Roman Catholic faithful make people feel welcomed, no thank you, I do not want it.

I am sorry, but you hit a raw nerve and if I didn’t say anything you probably would never know.

By the way, you do not need to apologize to me, I am not the One Whom you offended.

If you really believe I turned my back on God, please click on my letter in my signature and check out some of my threads in the letter.

I would be interested in your comment then.

When will the arrogance, assumptions, pointing fingers, judgement etc etc etc STOP, WHEN??

When will we start to work hand in hand as brothers and sisters in Christ’s love and present a loving environment to the outside unbelieving world.

Why sould they come home to a fighting Christian family?
What is so different about us than them?

I am speaking to me as well as you

God bless us all with His grace

truth

Hello whatisthetruth,

Easy now, don’t get so defensive. “Who am I’m I talking about?” well, I made a generalization, based on my own personal experiences, not yours and certainly not based on “you”. So, whom do my comments apply to?, they apply to the persons that they apply to, it is a simple as that, nothing personal against “all” Protestants and definitely nothing personal against you (whatisthetruth), I don’t know you.

This is the problem that sometimes occurs with a “direct approach” in writing, which I am guilty of; sometimes people take it the wrong way…

I did not start this thread for the sole purpose of upsetting you. However, I do apologize if my thread bothered you, I sure did not plan it that way. I will try to be more sensitive in the future.

Take Care and God Bless

 

[Jimmy_B]

Hello again whatisthetruth,

Below are comments that I wrote to another poster on a different thread here at CAF (he wasn’t “mad” at me), I merely wanted to try and share some insight that I have gained from my own experiences at “religious forums”. Once again, this is my opinion and it is meant by me, in a *general *context.

I hope this helps.

“Thank you for your post. I appreciate your comments and I understand. I have very strong religious convictions myself and sometimes that flows over into my comments, opinions (here) and onto my thread titles.

I guess that is the nature of religious forums. If the only thing we had to use to judge one another, what he or she might really be like, were their postings on internet forums, one might come away with the impression that forum posters are one-dimensional or single-minded and in reality they are caught up in the phenomenon known as “religious forums”.

I believe most internet posters are less opinionated and less out-spoken in the real world and far more polite, maybe not.

I think insomnia might play a part as well…

Thank you again, and thanks for your patients, God Bless."

Take care,

Jimmy

 

[whatisthetruth]

editing

 

[whatisthetruth]

“Thank you for your post. I appreciate your comments and I understand. I have very strong religious convictions myself and sometimes that flows over into my comments, opinions (here) and onto my thread titles.

I guess that is the nature of religious forums. If the only thing we had to use to judge one another, what he or she might really be like, were their postings on internet forums,
one might come away with the impression that forum posters are one-dimensional or single-minded and in reality they are caught up in the phenomenon known as “religious forums”.

I believe most internet posters are less opinionated and less out-spoken in the real world and far more polite, maybe not.

I think insomnia might play a part as well…

Thank you again, and thanks for your patients, God Bless."

Hi Jim,

Thank you for sharing.

I might have patience, but someone else may not.

I understand exactly what you are saying and I believe it is because of what you said especially, ( “______” ) that we, myself included, as posters should use the “preview post” and reread our message BEFORE hitting that “submit reply”.

Like I mentioned in my previous post, I was a little passionate with intent that a non believer who is sincerely seeking God’s love just might be turned away from reading a posters’ comments which can be interpreted as judgemental statements…
( i.e. have “turned away from God”, “what a life” and “without guilt” )

I believe most internet posters are less opinionated and less out-spoken in the real world
and far more polite, maybe not.

I agree. One reason I believe we are, as you said, “less out-spoken in the real world and far more polite” is because to say something like I just quoted above to the wrong person in the real world, we might find ourselves in the hospital real quick, if you know what I mean.

I almost got banned from a comment I made here, not because I was mean in my words but because I was seen as …the only reason I am here is to convert this community.

I will repeat what I have previously said, I could not convert you even if I wanted to.

It is God’s job to lead His children where He wants them to go.

For the reason I am here, please see my signature letter (1st link) and then I invite you to take note of the threads I started.

The warning by the moderator compelled me to offer my letter of apology.

I think insomnia might play a part as well

I agree 100%, we forget the people who post in these forums are real world people.

The person we are addressing in a forum just might be our next door neighbor. God only knows

The closest I came, I met someone in my church online.
I am thankful it was a friendly chat with him when I found out

In closing,

Take this little angel and keep her close to you.
She is your guardian angel sent to watch over you.

…(…/)
…( …/ )
…(…/…)
…(././…)
…/…\
…(_____)

God

truth

 

[Jimmy_B]

oh good now that i am “saved” i can go rape and pillage to my hearts content with no fear.

"hold on a minute, I think that there are some Christians who might actually agree with you to a certain extent"

Hello, Fbl9

I don’t know how I missed this one. I see in your profile that you indicate that you are Catholic, so I didn’t quite understand your comment here at first. I guess you were just goofing around, and sort of responding to the ‘Once Saved Always Saved” (OSAS) belief. I looked in the previous posts and I couldn’t determine with any certainty who your remarks were addressed to, so I will address the “belief” which is assume by your comment and shared by some “Born Again” Christians or “OSAS” Christians.

I know you were kidding in your post, but there are those in the OSAS crowd, who believe in a “guaranteed salvation”, no matter what!.

I wonder if that belief allows for a certain degree of sin. That based on the “degree” or “seriousness” of a sin or sins that one could actually lose their “guaranteed salvation? If so, where is the “cut-off”, I would like to know, which sin is it that will push you over the top?

I ask this, because, I think you actually bring up a good point here (however, un-intentional or extreme it might seem). From what I have heard and read, your remarks are what some Christians, who fall in line with Calvin’s ‘predestination” doctrine of OSAS believe and it goes directly to many of the questions and comments that I have posed in this thread.

Please (anybody) correct me if I am wrong, and do not provide the ‘boiler-plate” answers of, “if they were really saved, they wouldn’t be committing those sins”, because then my response will be, “what sin”? Are there sins, which are allowed once a person has been “saved”? If so, what are they?

Thank you, I would have addressed your post here earlier, had I noticed it, I am looking forward to a response from anybody who can answer my questions here.

Thank you,