if you are a person who thinks priests should get married respond to this

[osddso]

im just curious as to how anyone can justify a priest (or any type of preacher of God) be allowed to get married?

im almost done with luke, im on chapter 18, and i have the “comparative catholic new testament” that has on one page a passage from the Douay-Rheims, RSV, NAB & NRSV. on the other page it has the JB, Good News Translation, NJB & Christian Community.

while i dont pay much attention to the JB, NJB, CC or GNT, i sometimes skim over them to see how they look at the situation being proclaimed.

if you really need me to go back and get every single chapter (i believe in chapters over verses for examples, one verse does not cover the context in which it is said) i will.

just off the bat, ill use Luke 18:29-30, read the whole section as it serves better than just one verse to the argument, its the “the parable of the rich ruler” that was the final straw that caused me to write this post.

that whole section describes how inorder to be a true follower of the Word of God and a true preacher of Christ, one must give up everything. everything comes second to Christ.

one can say that “does a priest give up his mother?” no he doesnt, but he puts her second. one can say “if he can put his mother second, he can put his wife second too”

my answer to that is no you cant. the kind of love you have for your wife is different than family. the kind of love you have for your wife is that “id do anything” for her love. and anything means defying God.

im not gonna say that a priest is married to the church, becuase that would easily end this debate and there would be no need for me to post.

 

[cheese_sdc]

So, to be true follower of Christ, one cannot be married? Seems that was tried once (by the Shakers). Didn’t work out real well.

 

[Heavens_Flowers]

I believe what the original poster was trying to say is that you either choose to be married to another person or you choose to"marry" god or give your life to god.you can choose to marry anorther person or choose to “marry” god.

 

[beeliner]

Actually, the Shakers married but did not have sexual relations. Can’t imagine why the sect died out.

I don’t think that there is a lot of support for RC priests being allowed to marry. The question is whether the Church should relax its requirements for allowing men who are ALREADY married to be ordained.

I believe what the original poster was trying to say is that you either choose to be married to another person or you choose to"marry" god or give your life to god.you can choose to marry anorther person or choose to “marry” god.

I think that most married priests would disagree with that assessment.

 

[cheese_sdc]

I believe what the original poster was trying to say is that you either choose to be married to another person or you choose to"marry" god or give your life to god.you can choose to marry anorther person or choose to “marry” god.

sigh

Nevermind.

 

[BrianH]

We can justify it because Paul specifically said it was acceptable for a bishop to have one wife. Now you can argue the reasons why it is not a good idea but that alone is enough to “justify” it. You can once again argue if it is PREFERABLE naturally.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

I am not sure you are interpreting that properly 1) giving up his house may mean to use his house as directed rather than as he desires. Same for others things listed. 2) Marriage was common for Priest and Bishops for centuries. 3) Many think allowing aged deacons maybe 55 years or older, with a minimum of 5 years of service, and no dependent children to be a priest is a reasonable option. These men are typically beyond most family constraints (not all but most).

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Priests, once Ordained, should never get married. Not even if their wife dies.

It would truly be the scandle of all scandles if priests started dating and trying to find a wife. O please!?!

Not even the early Christian priests married after Ordination, they like St. Peter for example, were married before becoming a priest.

St. Peter maintained his responsibilities as a husband and as head of his family after being an Apostle of Jesus Christ, even bring Jesus to his mother-in-law’s home to have her healed from her illness.

St. Paul said it was better for men never to marry so that their focus would be only on God, but that if they got married (before Ordination) that was alright.

St. Paul would be a great exampe of a celibite priest and St. Peter of a married priest.

Both were able to fulfill their Priestly Role, St. Paul without secular distraction and St. Peter despite secular distraction.

But could you imagine the look on either St. Paul’s or St. Peter’s face if you said that after they were ordained that they should have then looked for a wife! LOL They would have looked at you like you had lost your mind!

 

[SingleMomMonica]

The question is whether the Church should relax its requirements for allowing men who are ALREADY married to be ordained.

The Church can relax that discipline. It used to be the norm in the Catholic Church, but has not been the norm for a very, very long time, at least in the Roman Rite.

It would certainly add to the priesthood many willing and holy men.

There are alot of positives for this idea. Because married men could be considered for the priesthood, it would greatly increase the amounts of priestly applicants and therefore the numbers of actual priests, parishes could be smaller which in turn would limit the ratio of parishioners to priest making it easier for a married priest to maintain his spiritual family as well as his wife and children. Small parishes would be a good thing. It also could have a result of attracting larger numbers of Protestant Pastor conversions.

The questions are:
Are the Roman Catholic Seminaries able to handle that kind of large influx of married students with children at this time? If not, are the Seminaries able/willing to make the necessary adjustments to be prepared for that?
Is the Roman Catholic laity able to handle it or would it be too much of a culture shock?
Right now, can parishes support the cost of one or more, presumably - due to the CC stance on limited use of NFP & no use of any other form of BC-, large families? Priest(s), wife and children - they would need to be paid enough to maintain a residence - I would imagine the rectories currently in place would only work for the unmarried priests, medical care, food, school tuition for the children and other things.
When marriages fail, will the Catholic Church allow for the priests and their wives to obtain annulments as is allowed for the Catholic laity?

There are many questions, but allowing married men to become priests has worked for other Rites within the Catholic Church for 2 thousand years and has worked in the Orthodox Church for just as long, so certainly it could work again for the Roman Catholic Rite of the Catholic Church!

Is it what the Catholics want though? A poll should be started?

 

[osddso]

i was talking about priests.

Jesus said to many after he cured them, now go to your home and show what God has done.

but for the ones who preach his word, the ones who were the apostles they had to give up everything to considered by Jesus to be a teacher of Christ. (i say a teacher, referring to them as preists, bishops, preachers of the word, not the teacher, as in Jesus…one can be like his master, but one can never surpass his master)

as for post BrianH’s post…Paul said that? what did the other apostles have to say about it? I cant really say “what did Peter have to say about it” because i respect what the orthodox believe. plus i also have to realize that your response to my post is on the same basis i made my post on. our own beliefs. so i respect your answer.

i dont change my mind, because i personally believe Peter would have had the final say. but i do respect your answer to my question…

im not JUST talking about that 1 verse or section. that was just one example. in order to have followed Jesus, and been worthy in his eyes to be one who is to teach the Word of God and his examples once He (Jesus) left this world, the criteria clearly states that you have to take an oath of poverty (give up your world possessions, land and riches), as well as leave your wife and family behind. that doesnt mean never talk to your mother again, or it doesnt mean never acknowledge your brothers, it just means (i could be wrong) that you are to love everyone the same, and thats impossible if you have a wife.

if i was a priest, and married, and some man confessed to beating his wife, or raping, id think to myself “my wife, what if that ever happened to her” and probably loose it on the guy.

i am no where being worthy to be a preacher of God. and to me and evangelist is someone who preaches the word of God through their kindness, not an excuse to play preacher and interpret the word.

 

[beeliner]

St. Paul said it was better for men never to marry so that their focus would be only on God, but that if they got married (before Ordination) that was alright.

I do not recall that, SMM, I think that you are mistaken here. Can you give the source? It’s the ‘before ordination’ part that doesn’t ring true.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

I do not recall that, SMM, I think that you are mistaken here. Can you give the source? It’s the ‘before ordination’ part that doesn’t ring true.

Do you have a source that says that St. Paul said that after Ordination it was alright for priests to marry?

Reading St. Paul in context with the early Church Fathers, early Church Teaching and early Church Practice is what made it me include in (before ordination).

 

[beeliner]

1. Do you have a source that says that St. Paul said that after Ordination it was alright for priests to marry?
2. Reading St. Paul in context with the early Church Fathers, early Church Teaching and early Church Practice is what made it me include in (before ordination).

1. Absolutely not. Nor do I recall him saying what you claim. Please give the letter, chapter and verse.
2. You may have added this afterward - I did not see it when I replied. So I guess we agree that Paul did not say that.

 

[MarkBrown]

This is the first time I have heard the passage of the “rich young ruler” being used as an argument against a married priesthood. Most comentaries discuss placing worldly things, like the young man did, before God. His reliance was on worldly things and not God, he was going through the motions. I have heard this passage used by some to say God will not allow rich people into heaven. Clearly using this passage for this and to prove a celibacy rule is reading too much into scripture. This passage is found in Matt 19:16-30, Mark 10:17-31, Luke 18:18-30. Jesus in this passage was not just addressing Peter and the 12, but the disciples which included the apostles and other followers. Also, mentioned is the crowds of people listening to the teachings.

While the Catholic Church can enact the discipline of celibacy for the clergy and religious, the scriptures and tradition give us no clear commandments. Hence the Orthodox Church does allowed for married deacons and priest. To take these passages as a “proof” of celibacy for priest, would be reading a theological position into the scriptures. Such as some protestants who hold that if one does not speak in tongues they are not saved and use Acts chapter 2 as proof. Again reading into scripture to support a held theological belief.

Jesus when he taught on marriage and celibacy did not make celibacy a commandment, Matthew 19. Jesus also tells us he did not come to change the law, Matthew 5:17-21. Since Moses God has allowed married and unmarried clergy, at the same time.

St Paul’s first letter to the Cornithians, chapter 7, deals with marriage. St Paul starts the chapter by telling us this is not a commandment, but a judgment. In the chapter, St Paul’s judgment is that no Christian should be married. As marriage hinders devotion to God. Gnostics and certain groups like the Shakers etc took this to extreme. St Paul in 1 Timothy and Titus gives guidelines to Timothy and Titus on the qualifications of Bishop, Priest and Deacon. All three are allowed to be married. No restrictions on when the marriage occurs, just limited to one wife. The earliest restriction I have found is Canon 33 of the Council of Elvira (304 AD) in which it states that Bishops, Priest and Deacons are to abstain from their wives and not to have children.

St Peter does not address, I have yet to find any teachings, celibacy and the ministry.

So, how can one justify married clergy? God does not forbid it, neither does Christ. There is evidence that a celibacy requirement was a progression within the Church. The reasons are many, can married men be good priest? The Orthodox think so and the married Orthodox priest I know are very good priest. As are the one or two Catholic priest I know or know of. With the influx of married Anglican priest into the Church over the next few years, it will be interesting to see the reaction of the laity to the married priest and if ministry will be harmed or if the additional priests will ease the stress and strain on the priest of the Church.

As to the concern of families interfering with ministry, there are problems within both the married and celibate clergy. Families of married clergy understand and accept that husband and father may have to be away, just as any family with a profession of care such as Doctors. I have missed family events to administer unction (last rites), called to homes in distress and even spent time away on Christmas conducting Mass. My family is very supportive and understands I and they are in a special place. When I was in secular work, I missed birthdays and events as have many fathers and mothers who are not in ministry. So can a married clergy work, yes. Just ask those married Catholic priests. Can it be stressful, sure. And single priests can get just as stressed out and burned out by the demands.

Fr.Mark
ACNA

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Thank you Fr. Mark!

This is the first time I have heard the passage of the “rich young ruler” being used as an argument against a married priesthood. Most comentaries discuss placing worldly things, like the young man did, before God. His reliance was on worldly things and not God, he was going through the motions. I have heard this passage used by some to say God will not allow rich people into heaven. Clearly using this passage for this and to prove a celibacy rule is reading too much into scripture. This passage is found in Matt 19:16-30, Mark 10:17-31, Luke 18:18-30. Jesus in this passage was not just addressing Peter and the 12, but the disciples which included the apostles and other followers. Also, mentioned is the crowds of people listening to the teachings.

While the Catholic Church can enact the discipline of celibacy for the clergy and religious, the scriptures and tradition give us no clear commandments. Hence the Orthodox Church does allowed for married deacons and priest. To take these passages as a “proof” of celibacy for priest, would be reading a theological position into the scriptures. Such as some protestants who hold that if one does not speak in tongues they are not saved and use Acts chapter 2 as proof. Again reading into scripture to support a held theological belief.

Jesus when he taught on marriage and celibacy did not make celibacy a commandment, Matthew 19. Jesus also tells us he did not come to change the law, Matthew 5:17-21. Since Moses God has allowed married and unmarried clergy, at the same time.

St Paul’s first letter to the Cornithians, chapter 7, deals with marriage. St Paul starts the chapter by telling us this is not a commandment, but a judgment. In the chapter, St Paul’s judgment is that no Christian should be married. As marriage hinders devotion to God. Gnostics and certain groups like the Shakers etc took this to extreme. St Paul in 1 Timothy and Titus gives guidelines to Timothy and Titus on the qualifications of Bishop, Priest and Deacon. All three are allowed to be married. No restrictions on when the marriage occurs, just limited to one wife. The earliest restriction I have found is Canon 33 of the Council of Elvira (304 AD) in which it states that Bishops, Priest and Deacons are to abstain from their wives and not to have children.

St Peter does not address, I have yet to find any teachings, celibacy and the ministry.

So, how can one justify married clergy? God does not forbid it, neither does Christ. There is evidence that a celibacy requirement was a progression within the Church. The reasons are many, can married men be good priest? The Orthodox think so and the married Orthodox priest I know are very good priest. As are the one or two Catholic priest I know or know of. With the influx of married Anglican priest into the Church over the next few years, it will be interesting to see the reaction of the laity to the married priest and if ministry will be harmed or if the additional priests will ease the stress and strain on the priest of the Church.

As to the concern of families interfering with ministry, there are problems within both the married and celibate clergy. Families of married clergy understand and accept that husband and father may have to be away, just as any family with a profession of care such as Doctors. I have missed family events to administer unction (last rites), called to homes in distress and even spent time away on Christmas conducting Mass. My family is very supportive and understands I and they are in a special place. When I was in secular work, I missed birthdays and events as have many fathers and mothers who are not in ministry. So can a married clergy work, yes. Just ask those married Catholic priests. Can it be stressful, sure. And single priests can get just as stressed out and burned out by the demands.

Fr.Mark
ACNA

 

[benidict]

no dont think they should. life is hard enough without being married. also think of the confessional. would you want a priest having to keep alot of heavy things on his mind to have a wife, and not be able to communicate about what is bothering him? also the midnight calls to the hospitals, or any number of things that take a priest time. i say thank God for a single priesthood. peace be to you all

 

[Rence]

im just curious as to how anyone can justify a priest (or any type of preacher of God) be allowed to get married?

one can say that “does a priest give up his mother?” no he doesnt, but he puts her second. one can say “if he can put his mother second, he can put his wife second too”
my answer to that is no you cant. the kind of love you have for your wife is different than family. the kind of love you have for your wife is that “id do anything” for her love. and anything means defying God.

I wish that priests were allowed to be married again. I wish they had the choice of either being married or being single. I really don’t have too much more to add to what SingleMomMonica and Mark Brown said, because I share most of what they said. But I do want to point out something:

I never did understand why people say that priests couldn’t effectively be priests while being husbands/fathers at the same time. First of all, Eastern Orthodox priests who are married do a WONDERFUL job. They’re just as great as the Catholic priests. So are some protestant preachers.

Second of all, while being a priest is a higher calling it is still a job, it’s the person’s life choice for a vocation. I’m not denying it’s a very special job either, so don’t twist my words (not that you would) or misunderstand what I’m saying please. That said, that would be the same (IMOHO) as saying that a doctor, psychiatrist, counselers, nurse, psychologist, fireman, police officer can’t serve their patients, clients or jobs because they are married. And let me tell you, those vocations infringe on the family life just as every bit as you would think of a priest’s vocation inferering with family life. And that’s what it is: Life. You learn to deal with it. You learn to prioritize. There are situations in which each of these has to literally drop everything and go to that job. If it’s possible for these, why not a priest? I never did find it an acceptable excuse… My step-father was a pediatrician. He missed many birthday parties, family events, got called out at 1am, interrupted dinners. The family knew his job was important. They either waited for him, or had him join after, or saved dinner for him, etc. Same with a married priest. It’s just part of a family’s dynamics.

And that’s all I had to add to SingleMomMonica and MarkBrown’s replies

 

[benidict]

I wish that priests were allowed to be married again. I wish they had the choice of either being married or being single. I really don’t have too much more to add to what SingleMomMonica and Mark Brown said, because I share most of what they said. But I do want to point out something:

I never did understand why people say that priests couldn’t effectively be priests while being husbands/fathers at the same time. First of all, Eastern Orthodox priests who are married do a WONDERFUL job. They’re just as great as the Catholic priests. So are some protestant preachers.

Second of all, while being a priest is a higher calling it is still a job, it’s the person’s life choice for a vocation. I’m not denying it’s a very special job either, so don’t twist my words (not that you would) or misunderstand what I’m saying please. That said, that would be the same (IMOHO) as saying that a doctor, psychiatrist, counselers, nurse, psychologist, fireman, police officer can’t serve their patients, clients or jobs because they are married. And let me tell you, those vocations infringe on the family life just as every bit as you would think of a priest’s vocation inferering with family life. And that’s what it is: Life. You learn to deal with it. You learn to prioritize. There are situations in which each of these has to literally drop everything and go to that job. If it’s possible for these, why not a priest? I never did find it an acceptable excuse… My step-father was a pediatrician. He missed many birthday parties, family events, got called out at 1am, interrupted dinners. The family knew his job was important. They either waited for him, or had him join after, or saved dinner for him, etc. Same with a married priest. It’s just part of a family’s dynamics.

And that’s all I had to add to SingleMomMonica and MarkBrown’s replies

hi rence, interesting point of view, thank goodness this is not a dogma, just a discipline. but with all due respect. why lower the standard? the men we have, have dedicated their lives to the Church. even the apostle paul stated that a married man has divided loyalties. if he is married he must be mindful of how he can please his wife. whereas the single man, can be mindful of how he can best please God. i am not a priest. but in many ways i live like them. i was divorced 10 years ago. live the wrong way for several years. then it dawned on me… what the heck am i doing. thank God for his intervention. i like being single and celibate. and the priest i do know, feel no desire to marry. they made a lifestyle choice. just as a married person does just as i have done. who would we be appeasing by allowing married men into the priesthood, and why stop a discipline that has worked for many many years, for many different reasons? peace be to you.

 

[osddso]

i think all of you have great points.

singlemommonica, as usual you provided a good valid argument.
rence, you got me thinking.

but i still fall back to Jesus saying to his apostles, if you want to follow me and be an apostle you need to give up everything. family, riches AND WIFE.

simple. done deal.

i know im gonna get pounced on for this, and i dont mean it the way its gonna come out, but could the apostles who said a bishop or priest can only have one wife kind of playing both sides of the fence?

Jesus clearly says one must give up everything, including ones wife to follow him. the ones that follow him are the ones who are to be the teachers of his ways once he leaves. Jesus told them in heaven he would pray for them not to be swayed.

could man (being that we are not perfect) be looking for some type of companionship, some type of human love, and justified it by saying “ok since we are gonna have a wife, i make sure you only have one, otherwise you def know its a sin”

im just trying to sort it out thats all. while the apostles were better men then i can ever be, ever will be, maybe they realized that while they can remain celebate, it might be harder for those in the future to give up an aspect of human life and love that so many dream about (hopefully they dream of it second to God love)