S
selvaraj
Guest
Seems to me many of the members were in Saudi Arabia or still in Saudi Arabia. Can you share here what type of problems you faced or facing as a Christian ?
In Christ,
selvaraj
In Christ,
selvaraj
If you are [were] in Saudi Arabia, as a Christian what type of problems you met?
- Status
S
Stu
Guest
My time in Saudi was interesting. Arriving as military, my persoanal bags were searched to ensure I was not trying to smuggle in “alcohol, pornography or extra copies of the Bible”. Additionally, I would routinely have members of the Saudi religious police (Mutawa) confront me in public asking me if I was Christian to which I would always reply in the affirmative.
Of interest (and on the comical side from the point of view of my associates and I that were there), we would get phone calls in the middle of the night from Saudi’s that wanted to talk about sex (“phone sex”) and on a regular basis some of the guys in our group were confronted by local Saudi’s who were looking for homosexual liaisons. Freaky to say the least and not at all what we expected when going to that part of the world.
Now in fairness, no one ever tried to intimidate me or use my religion against me. In fact I spent a considerable amount of time in the rug shop run by Turkish merchants drinking coffee, talking religion and politics. Truly a good time with these individuals.
Of interest (and on the comical side from the point of view of my associates and I that were there), we would get phone calls in the middle of the night from Saudi’s that wanted to talk about sex (“phone sex”) and on a regular basis some of the guys in our group were confronted by local Saudi’s who were looking for homosexual liaisons. Freaky to say the least and not at all what we expected when going to that part of the world.
Now in fairness, no one ever tried to intimidate me or use my religion against me. In fact I spent a considerable amount of time in the rug shop run by Turkish merchants drinking coffee, talking religion and politics. Truly a good time with these individuals.
M
mercygate
Guest
Some years ago, my friend, Fr. George Rugieri, SJ, a well-known marine biologist, and Director of the New York Aquarium, was invited to Saudi Arabia to advise the government on setting up a big aquarium. He was not permitted to bring wine into the country for use in the celebration of Mass, and his bags were searched right down to the skivvies.
D
DaveBj
Guest
Never been there myself, al-hamdu lillah, but in my previous life I knew a number of military types who had been there. One of them, a tall, blond surfer type was frequently openly approached by young Saudi males for homosexual sex.
DaveBj
DaveBj
S
selvaraj
Guest
Once I heard from my friend, when he was travelling in a taxi, the Saudi driver asked his religion. He answered, I am a Christian. Immediately he stopped on the way and shouted him to get down from the car.
In Christ,
selvaraj
In Christ,
selvaraj
D
Dan_Blake
Guest
Does this mean that there is no Mass celebrated in SA? Or maybe the authorities allow “registered” priests to have an insignificant amount of wine (but enough to consecrate). Or maybe church duty trumps civil law, and at great risk it is smuggled in. What about military chaplains?
J
Jermin_Savory
Guest
Ya Allah!
If I were in Saudi Arabia I would abide by their religious rules, likewise, I would dread a person to enter my house with his or her shoes on, therefore entering Saudi Arabia with drugs, Bibles, or anything that would be of offense to the government would be offensive and thus disrespectful to their laws.
If I were in Saudi Arabia I would abide by their religious rules, likewise, I would dread a person to enter my house with his or her shoes on, therefore entering Saudi Arabia with drugs, Bibles, or anything that would be of offense to the government would be offensive and thus disrespectful to their laws.
J
Jermin_Savory
Guest
Ya Allah!
Hey All
Not a Christian but If I were in Saudi Arabia I would abide by their religious rules, likewise, I would dread a person to enter my house with his or her shoes on, therefore entering Saudi Arabia with drugs, Bibles, or anything that would be of offense to the government would be offensive and thus disrespectful to their laws.
Hey All
Not a Christian but If I were in Saudi Arabia I would abide by their religious rules, likewise, I would dread a person to enter my house with his or her shoes on, therefore entering Saudi Arabia with drugs, Bibles, or anything that would be of offense to the government would be offensive and thus disrespectful to their laws.
S
Stu
Guest
Jermin Savory:
You miss the point as the stories speak to the fear of the Saudi government of Christianity. We can respect their rights to make such laws but we can also point out how ridiculous they are. Equating the Bible and drugs is laughable as would be comparing the Koran to say pornograpy. As I stated before in another thread, I believe the Saudi’s fear what Chrisianity will do to their political system.
S
Saint_Andrew
Guest
Hello
What I heard wearing anything like a Crucifix is forbidden, I think persecution of Christian faith would also happen there.
God Bless
Saint Andrew.
What I heard wearing anything like a Crucifix is forbidden, I think persecution of Christian faith would also happen there.
God Bless
Saint Andrew.
J
Jermin_Savory
Guest
Stu: We can respect their rights to make such laws but we can also point out how ridiculous they are. Equating the Bible and drugs is laughable as would be comparing the Koran to say pornograpy. As I stated before in another thread, I believe the Saudi’s fear what Chrisianity will do to their political system.
Hey Stu
Stu: We can respect their rights to make such laws but we can also point out how ridiculous they are.
**
Jermin Savory:** Its almost as though you are saying they are ridiculous because they are living a different lifestyle.
**
Stu:** I believe the Saudi’s fear what the Christianity will do to their political system.
Jermin Savory: Yes, if that is the political system that is here in America, I would fear Christianity going their with its influence myself. Since you mentioned pornography, This is no different than the parts of Africa that Bands the Bible because they say “it contains pornographical instances and Incess in it.” In no way am I trying to offend you but I’m just giving you an example of why the saudi government prohibits Christian influence on their land. Another thing is, The Religion of saudi Arabia is islam, 100% and which means it is a place where 100% Monotheism is practiced. They believe in one God, now to bring Christianity into the land of the prophet (P) would be highly disrespectful Why? Because they believe in the Concept of One God and you are bring the concept of a Triune God, which is alien to their way of life, and which was not taught by any of the Prophets (P) of their religion.
Hey Stu
Stu: We can respect their rights to make such laws but we can also point out how ridiculous they are.
**
Jermin Savory:** Its almost as though you are saying they are ridiculous because they are living a different lifestyle.
**
Stu:** I believe the Saudi’s fear what the Christianity will do to their political system.
Jermin Savory: Yes, if that is the political system that is here in America, I would fear Christianity going their with its influence myself. Since you mentioned pornography, This is no different than the parts of Africa that Bands the Bible because they say “it contains pornographical instances and Incess in it.” In no way am I trying to offend you but I’m just giving you an example of why the saudi government prohibits Christian influence on their land. Another thing is, The Religion of saudi Arabia is islam, 100% and which means it is a place where 100% Monotheism is practiced. They believe in one God, now to bring Christianity into the land of the prophet (P) would be highly disrespectful Why? Because they believe in the Concept of One God and you are bring the concept of a Triune God, which is alien to their way of life, and which was not taught by any of the Prophets (P) of their religion.
S
Stu
Guest
Jermin Savory:
So the the Saudi’s ban the Bible because of instances of incest yet the the promises of carnal delight in the afterlife by the Koran is okay? My friend you need some better talking points. Saudi’s fear the Bible because it would free its people from the oppressive caste system that currently rules the day.
I have no issue with “God-fearing” Muslims that respect others. Unfortunately, they seem to be a minority especially at the state level.
I say laughable because it is laughable not because it is a different lifestyle. It was similarly laughable to see a non-saudi charged with a driving offense following a “fender-bender” where the other driver (a saudi that rear-ended the non-saudi)) was clearly at fault. The justification was that the non-saudi was a guest in the country and if he hadn’t have come to visit the accident would have never happened. I find it laughable that Saudi men would assert to some of my compatriots that homsexual sex between men was okay as it kept women virgins until marriage. I find witnessing the nightlife in Bahrain (just a ride across a bridge from Saudi Arabia) as laughable when I see Muslim’s carrying on all sorts of forbidden activities while saying all along that “Allah cannot see across the bridge”. “Different” and “laughable” do not have to be mutually exclusive. And before you pull out Chrisitan double standards, I will be happy to say there are plenty out there. My point is that the “Islam influence” isn’t exactly anything to write home about.
So the the Saudi’s ban the Bible because of instances of incest yet the the promises of carnal delight in the afterlife by the Koran is okay? My friend you need some better talking points. Saudi’s fear the Bible because it would free its people from the oppressive caste system that currently rules the day.
I have no issue with “God-fearing” Muslims that respect others. Unfortunately, they seem to be a minority especially at the state level.
S
selvaraj
Guest
See, how the Muttawa(Religious police) killed the 15 Saudi school girls.
Friday, 15 March, 2002, 12:19 GMT
Saudi Religious police ‘stopped’ fire rescue
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Saudi Arabia’s religious police stopped schoolgirls from leaving a blazing building because they were not wearing correct Islamic dress, according to Saudi newspapers
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1874471.stm
In Chrsit,
selvaraj
Friday, 15 March, 2002, 12:19 GMT
Saudi Religious police ‘stopped’ fire rescue
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Saudi Arabia’s religious police stopped schoolgirls from leaving a blazing building because they were not wearing correct Islamic dress, according to Saudi newspapers
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1874471.stm
In Chrsit,
selvaraj
J
Jermin_Savory
Guest
Hey Stu
Stu: I find it laughable that Saudi men would assert to some of my compatriots that homsexual sex between men was okay as it **kept women virgins until marriage.
Jermin Savory:** I’ve studied Saudi Culture in debt, in addition to that, I Have many Saudi Arabia friends and I’ve never heard anything close to what you’ve just mentioned. No scholar of Saudi traditional islam promotes this idea that you’ve just mention about the Saudis. What is laughable is that someone who is lead by the “Holy Spirit” would be caught habitually with prostitutes, thats is what I find laughable, considering the man was Married at the time. No where in Saudi Arabia agrees with the your saying that “homsexual sex between men was okay as it kept women virgins until marriage.”
**
Stu:** So the the Saudi’s ban the Bible because of instances of incest yet the the promises of carnal delight in the afterlife by the Koran is okay?
Jermin Savory: No where In my passage did I every say or stated that “the Saudi’s banned the bible because of instances of incest.” I said, "Since you mentioned pornography, This is no different than the parts of Africa that Bands the Bible because they say “it contains pornographical instances and Incess in it.” I fail to see where I’ve mentioned Saudi Arabia. Speaking of “Carnal delight” The Muslim brother, Munawar has answer that claim in tremendous intricate detail and its funny how you rehatch the same claim.
Stu: Saudi’s fear the Bible because it would free its people from the oppressive caste system that currently rules the day.
Jermin Savory: How is this possible when the Bible teaches it’s readers “If you are a slave remain as you are until the lord comes”? and you say the bible “would free Saudi Arabia from the oppressive caste system”? How about freeing the women of the Christian American culture of the pornographical lifestyle they live. How nice is a to go to a “house of worship” Church with a skirt that a man can easily feast his eyes to see under it. Likewise a shirt that exposes half of their breast? Is this the lifestyle you would like to hoist on the culture of the “Oppressed” saudi culture of women? Since you brought up pornagraphy…The kids in saudi arabia don’t know about incess or pornography and you are willing to take to culture and your bible there? What if one of the kids of Saudi Arabia were to open up one of your Bibles and happen to stop at the book of the Bible intitled , “Song of Solomon” you would corrupt the kid’s mind, is this what you want? My friend, please refrain from arguments on the Qur’an that if applied to the Bible demolishes the Bible also.
**
Stu: **It was similarly laughable to see a non-saudi charged with a driving offense following a “fender-bender” where the other driver (a saudi that rear-ended the non-saudi)) was clearly at fault.
Jermin Savory: Sounds like you were looking close enough to see who was in the wrong. This is a petty argument, I wasn’t there, for all I know, you may not be telling me the truth. (Forgive me) If I tell you there were two Pastors smoking pot, would you believe me unless you were there to witness?
Stu: I find it laughable that Saudi men would assert to some of my compatriots that homsexual sex between men was okay as it **kept women virgins until marriage.
Jermin Savory:** I’ve studied Saudi Culture in debt, in addition to that, I Have many Saudi Arabia friends and I’ve never heard anything close to what you’ve just mentioned. No scholar of Saudi traditional islam promotes this idea that you’ve just mention about the Saudis. What is laughable is that someone who is lead by the “Holy Spirit” would be caught habitually with prostitutes, thats is what I find laughable, considering the man was Married at the time. No where in Saudi Arabia agrees with the your saying that “homsexual sex between men was okay as it kept women virgins until marriage.”
**
Stu:** So the the Saudi’s ban the Bible because of instances of incest yet the the promises of carnal delight in the afterlife by the Koran is okay?
Jermin Savory: No where In my passage did I every say or stated that “the Saudi’s banned the bible because of instances of incest.” I said, "Since you mentioned pornography, This is no different than the parts of Africa that Bands the Bible because they say “it contains pornographical instances and Incess in it.” I fail to see where I’ve mentioned Saudi Arabia. Speaking of “Carnal delight” The Muslim brother, Munawar has answer that claim in tremendous intricate detail and its funny how you rehatch the same claim.
Stu: Saudi’s fear the Bible because it would free its people from the oppressive caste system that currently rules the day.
Jermin Savory: How is this possible when the Bible teaches it’s readers “If you are a slave remain as you are until the lord comes”? and you say the bible “would free Saudi Arabia from the oppressive caste system”? How about freeing the women of the Christian American culture of the pornographical lifestyle they live. How nice is a to go to a “house of worship” Church with a skirt that a man can easily feast his eyes to see under it. Likewise a shirt that exposes half of their breast? Is this the lifestyle you would like to hoist on the culture of the “Oppressed” saudi culture of women? Since you brought up pornagraphy…The kids in saudi arabia don’t know about incess or pornography and you are willing to take to culture and your bible there? What if one of the kids of Saudi Arabia were to open up one of your Bibles and happen to stop at the book of the Bible intitled , “Song of Solomon” you would corrupt the kid’s mind, is this what you want? My friend, please refrain from arguments on the Qur’an that if applied to the Bible demolishes the Bible also.
**
Stu: **It was similarly laughable to see a non-saudi charged with a driving offense following a “fender-bender” where the other driver (a saudi that rear-ended the non-saudi)) was clearly at fault.
Jermin Savory: Sounds like you were looking close enough to see who was in the wrong. This is a petty argument, I wasn’t there, for all I know, you may not be telling me the truth. (Forgive me) If I tell you there were two Pastors smoking pot, would you believe me unless you were there to witness?
S
Stu
Guest
Jermin Savory:
Jermin Savory:
Jermin Savory:
Jermin Savory:
Just because you haven’t heard it doesn’t mean it isn’t true. It might not be “traditional” but it did happen in Saudi Arabia itself (have you been there?). I’m not sure what the “habitually with prostitutes” means but if you are referring to me then you are sadly mistaken. Go to Bahrain and you will see the Saudi’s drinking in bars and hanging out with women that are clearly not their wives. (Have you been to Bahrain?)
Jermin Savory:
Munawar agrees that the passages speak of carnal delights in an attempt to appeal to those of a simpler mind. I would reread his posts. Though I disagree with him, I can see his train of thought.
Jermin Savory:
You just prove extremes in either way are wrong. I don’t condone skimpy clothing just as much as I don’t condone making woman walk around in with a “sack” over their heads, walking behind the man as a rule, not being allowed to go to school, etc. When the Bible speaks of remaining a slave it speaks of being happy with what you have in life and doing all that you do, no matter how meager for the greater glory of God. It also speaks to the responsibilities of a “slave owner” not to mention the term “slave” used in the current translations does have a different connotation than the original term had. Overall I stand by my point. Show me at least one truly democratically elected Muslim state except for those where elections were aided by the United States (Iraq and Afghanistan).
Jermin Savory:
It was obvious who was in the wrong and I wouldn’t call it petty given my friend was taken to jail for having a Saudi crash into the back of his car with the explanation previously given. Petty is casually dismissing it with the charge that I am lying.
J
Jermin_Savory
Guest
Stu: It might not be “traditional” but it did happen in Saudi Arabia itself (have you been there?). I’m not sure what the “habitually with prostitutes” means but if you are referring to me then you are sadly mistaken. Go to Bahrain and you will see the Saudi’s drinking in bars and hanging out with women that are clearly not their wives. (Have you been to Bahrain?)
**
Jermin Savory:** Stu I was not refering to you, you give me a joke about the saudi men and homosexuality so I give you a joke about a person who is American (Christian) “What is laughable is that someone who is lead by the “Holy Spirit” would be caught habitually with prostitutes, thats is what I find laughable, considering the man was Married at the time.” Jimmy Swaggart, Mr. “The Holy spirit leads me.” Now about Bahrain, i’m not defending anyone because no one is perfect, just like we have today Preist who sexually go into the younger boys and feel pleasure from it, I don’t like it, but no man is perfect. Moreover, they’re a lot of people in the world doing things that are against their cultural tradition or beliefs.
Stu: Munawar agrees that the passages speak of carnal delights in an attempt to appeal to those of a simpler mind. I would reread his posts. Though I disagree with him, I can see his train of thought.
**
Jermin Savory:** No, my argument is not what Munawar said, and I didn’t go against what Munawar Said, I know exactly what he said, my point is that you’ve discussed this with him and he has given you some of the best answers to the Question, why would you bring it back up as though you don’t know the answers? That is my point.
Stu: I don’t condone making woman walk around in with a “sack” over their heads, walking behind the man as a rule, not being allowed to go to school, etc. When the Bible speaks of remaining a slave it speaks of being happy with what you have in life and doing all that you do, no matter how meager for the greater glory of God. It also speaks to the responsibilities of a “slave owner” not to mention the term “slave” used in the current translations does have a different connotation than the original term had. Overall I stand by my point. Show me at least one truly democratically elected Muslim state except for those where elections were aided by the United States
**
Jermin Savory**: To start, in islamic cultures or wherever Muslims are, the women walking behind the man is not a sign of superiority, over the women, it simply shows that the man is the leader of the family. Most of the women that I know find this point to be good and like the feeling of A man leading their way. And I don’t know where you get the idea from that it is a rule, it is actually a custom and cultural tradition. Speaking of "Sack"I rather my mother, my wife or my sister walk with sacks on their heads instead of illicitly showing out their breast, back, stomach legs ect. The “Sack” that you are refuring to is a part of their culture, which some look at as a tridition and not a rule. Now about school, This is one of the points you make, in which I doubt you’ve visited Saudi Arabia. Incase you haven’t noticed the many universities in Saudi Arabia that women are attending to educate themselves. And Stu, the old argument that women are not being allowed to go to school is old, take a look at the many universities of Saudi arabia That are packed with house wives, daughters and Mothers who are indeed getting an education and flourishing with eloquence in their speech. I rather my women have a chance to speak and exploit their intelegence than 1 Corinthians 14:34 “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.”
**
Jermin Savory:** Stu I was not refering to you, you give me a joke about the saudi men and homosexuality so I give you a joke about a person who is American (Christian) “What is laughable is that someone who is lead by the “Holy Spirit” would be caught habitually with prostitutes, thats is what I find laughable, considering the man was Married at the time.” Jimmy Swaggart, Mr. “The Holy spirit leads me.” Now about Bahrain, i’m not defending anyone because no one is perfect, just like we have today Preist who sexually go into the younger boys and feel pleasure from it, I don’t like it, but no man is perfect. Moreover, they’re a lot of people in the world doing things that are against their cultural tradition or beliefs.
Stu: Munawar agrees that the passages speak of carnal delights in an attempt to appeal to those of a simpler mind. I would reread his posts. Though I disagree with him, I can see his train of thought.
**
Jermin Savory:** No, my argument is not what Munawar said, and I didn’t go against what Munawar Said, I know exactly what he said, my point is that you’ve discussed this with him and he has given you some of the best answers to the Question, why would you bring it back up as though you don’t know the answers? That is my point.
Stu: I don’t condone making woman walk around in with a “sack” over their heads, walking behind the man as a rule, not being allowed to go to school, etc. When the Bible speaks of remaining a slave it speaks of being happy with what you have in life and doing all that you do, no matter how meager for the greater glory of God. It also speaks to the responsibilities of a “slave owner” not to mention the term “slave” used in the current translations does have a different connotation than the original term had. Overall I stand by my point. Show me at least one truly democratically elected Muslim state except for those where elections were aided by the United States
**
Jermin Savory**: To start, in islamic cultures or wherever Muslims are, the women walking behind the man is not a sign of superiority, over the women, it simply shows that the man is the leader of the family. Most of the women that I know find this point to be good and like the feeling of A man leading their way. And I don’t know where you get the idea from that it is a rule, it is actually a custom and cultural tradition. Speaking of "Sack"I rather my mother, my wife or my sister walk with sacks on their heads instead of illicitly showing out their breast, back, stomach legs ect. The “Sack” that you are refuring to is a part of their culture, which some look at as a tridition and not a rule. Now about school, This is one of the points you make, in which I doubt you’ve visited Saudi Arabia. Incase you haven’t noticed the many universities in Saudi Arabia that women are attending to educate themselves. And Stu, the old argument that women are not being allowed to go to school is old, take a look at the many universities of Saudi arabia That are packed with house wives, daughters and Mothers who are indeed getting an education and flourishing with eloquence in their speech. I rather my women have a chance to speak and exploit their intelegence than 1 Corinthians 14:34 “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.”
S
Stu
Guest
Jermin Savory:
Jermin Savory:
Jermin Savory:
Jermin Savory:
Herein we agree in that there are sinners in all religions. Therefore, Saudi Arabia has nothing to fear from the Bible in that respect if that is your argument. From my experience, from having been there personally and seeing Saudi behavior in Bahrain, is that they are behaving badly without Christian influence. Therefore, they should have nothing to fear of the Bible.
Jermin Savory:
I did know the answer and that is the point. You cite Song of Solomon as being wrong and I ask you to look inward towards the Koran.
Jermin Savory:
I will admit that there surely are women who prefer this practice and with that it is their choice. So are you telling me that if a woman didn’t want to wear this clothing in Saudi Arabia she would have no problems? Female members of my party when I visited Saudi Arabia were routinely harassed by the Mutawa regarding their freely chosen manner of dress.
Jermin Savory:
Once again, I have been to Saudi Arabia plus 3 other Islamic countries (4 if you count the Palestinian areas of Israel). Have you traveled to any Islamic countries or are you from one? I will freely admit that women are being allowed to do more in the Arab world but it is far from the ideal that you espouse above and counter to what I have seen first hand.
J
Jermin_Savory
Guest
Stu: Herein we agree in that there are sinners in all religions. Therefore, Saudi Arabia has nothing to fear from the Bible in that respect if that is your argument. From my experience, from having been there personally and seeing Saudi behavior in Bahrain, is that they are behaving badly without Christian influence. Therefore, they should have nothing to fear of the Bible.
**
Jermin Savory:** Very logical, but on the same point, I can assert that the misguided ones that are hanging in bars and such are not following the Qur’an and sunnah, obviously and to Bring in Christian doctrines would deviate them more from the divine message of God. But for Christian culture to enter, with its habbits and customs like Dating before marrage, dressing codes, entering into prayer rooms with shoes and their beliefs (Polytheism) would just corrupt A pure monotheistic culture. I’m not talking about the people who are already rebelings against their cultural guidlines and religious rules, but the people who are there that are practicing their religion, which is islam. Refrain from presenting your case as though i’m saying that they are afraid of the bible as a whole, they are afraid of the teachings that comes with it that are in it that may help to deviate the people from their pure concept of monotheism.
**
Stu:** I did know the answer and that is the point. You cite Song of Solomon as being wrong and I ask you to look inward towards the Koran.
**
Jermin Savory:** The “Song of Solomon” is in no way the Equivalent of the “Carnal Paradise” that the Qur’an as you would say talks about. we have to both admit that one is more intense and far sexual than the other
Stu: So are you telling me that if a woman didn’t want to wear this clothing in Saudi Arabia she would have no problems? Female members of my party when I visited Saudi Arabia were routinely harassed by the Mutawa regarding their freely chosen manner of dress.
**
Jermin Savory**: As I’ve stated prior to this post, no one is perfect, having said that, the culture of Saudi Arabia would look at the women who defaces the traditional dresscode and wears less than what is modest as a lawless women. she would have a difficult time, not only with her other female friends, but with authority. Now as for the promlems, the reason why the culture would look at it as though it is a problem is because when she decides to dress down, the law is defaced, when she decides to dress less than what is modest, the younger girls that are look up to her thinks that it is the right way to dress, thus sending distorted images of what islamic drescode expectations are. The Qur’an teaches women to be modest, so to dress less that what the Qur’an considers to be modest would be speaking against the Qur’an and Sunnah, and the Qur’an and sunnah is the source of Guidance in Saudi Arabia.
**
Stu:** Once again, I have been to Saudi Arabia plus 3 other Islamic countries (4 if you count the Palestinian areas of Israel). Have you traveled to any Islamic countries or are you from one? I will freely admit that women are being allowed to do more in the Arab world but it is far from the ideal that you espouse above and counter to what I have seen first hand.
**
Jermin Savory:** I’m From Guyana, there is a good amount of Muslims in guyana. The community in guyana where i’m from is 80%Muslim. (If that helps) Yes, women indeed are doing more as the world advances, What i’ve stated about Arabia is the truth, not only from the facts that are broadcasted on the news and documentaries on Arabian women but from personal conversations with the (women) scholars of islam. It is also true that some women in islamic countries are not allowed to do as Much as the women are now doing in Saudi Arabia. Partly because finances are not available, due to poverty, or the facilities are not there or in reach.
**
Jermin Savory:** Very logical, but on the same point, I can assert that the misguided ones that are hanging in bars and such are not following the Qur’an and sunnah, obviously and to Bring in Christian doctrines would deviate them more from the divine message of God. But for Christian culture to enter, with its habbits and customs like Dating before marrage, dressing codes, entering into prayer rooms with shoes and their beliefs (Polytheism) would just corrupt A pure monotheistic culture. I’m not talking about the people who are already rebelings against their cultural guidlines and religious rules, but the people who are there that are practicing their religion, which is islam. Refrain from presenting your case as though i’m saying that they are afraid of the bible as a whole, they are afraid of the teachings that comes with it that are in it that may help to deviate the people from their pure concept of monotheism.
**
Stu:** I did know the answer and that is the point. You cite Song of Solomon as being wrong and I ask you to look inward towards the Koran.
**
Jermin Savory:** The “Song of Solomon” is in no way the Equivalent of the “Carnal Paradise” that the Qur’an as you would say talks about. we have to both admit that one is more intense and far sexual than the other
Stu: So are you telling me that if a woman didn’t want to wear this clothing in Saudi Arabia she would have no problems? Female members of my party when I visited Saudi Arabia were routinely harassed by the Mutawa regarding their freely chosen manner of dress.
**
Jermin Savory**: As I’ve stated prior to this post, no one is perfect, having said that, the culture of Saudi Arabia would look at the women who defaces the traditional dresscode and wears less than what is modest as a lawless women. she would have a difficult time, not only with her other female friends, but with authority. Now as for the promlems, the reason why the culture would look at it as though it is a problem is because when she decides to dress down, the law is defaced, when she decides to dress less than what is modest, the younger girls that are look up to her thinks that it is the right way to dress, thus sending distorted images of what islamic drescode expectations are. The Qur’an teaches women to be modest, so to dress less that what the Qur’an considers to be modest would be speaking against the Qur’an and Sunnah, and the Qur’an and sunnah is the source of Guidance in Saudi Arabia.
**
Stu:** Once again, I have been to Saudi Arabia plus 3 other Islamic countries (4 if you count the Palestinian areas of Israel). Have you traveled to any Islamic countries or are you from one? I will freely admit that women are being allowed to do more in the Arab world but it is far from the ideal that you espouse above and counter to what I have seen first hand.
**
Jermin Savory:** I’m From Guyana, there is a good amount of Muslims in guyana. The community in guyana where i’m from is 80%Muslim. (If that helps) Yes, women indeed are doing more as the world advances, What i’ve stated about Arabia is the truth, not only from the facts that are broadcasted on the news and documentaries on Arabian women but from personal conversations with the (women) scholars of islam. It is also true that some women in islamic countries are not allowed to do as Much as the women are now doing in Saudi Arabia. Partly because finances are not available, due to poverty, or the facilities are not there or in reach.
S
Stu
Guest
Jermin Savory:
Jermin Savory:
Jermin Savory:
I think your speculation is unfounded. People are sinners, pure and simple.
Jermin Savory:
Aside from the fact that we probably disagree which is more “intense”, the point is that sexuality is present in both religions and revered scripts. Therefore to argue one would influence others negatively with respect to sex more than the other is not valid. Reference my point about people being sinners.
Jermin Savory:
Define modesty. I’m not talking about a woman in a mini-skirt and halter top (which I too do not approve of) but rather a woman dressed with a conservative western appearance (which admittedly exists). I understand the argument that a woman’s dress can tempt a man. Attractive women admittedly catch my eye. But God calls me to rise above that with His help and look at women as my sisters vice objects of sexual gratification both here and in the afterlife.
J
Jermin_Savory
Guest
Good Afternoon,
** Stu:** I think your speculation is unfounded. People are sinners, pure and simple.
**
Jermin Savory:** You Quote my whole response as though you were going to respond to it point for point, I don’t see the logic behind you quoting my whole passage with just a comment and thought to make. Where is the answer to my whole passage which addresses the whole subject in essence? You said “I THINK your speculation is unfounded.” Why “Think”? And can you tell me the unfound part of my passage? And about people being sinners, I totally agree with that, I’ve never opposed that fact in my passage.
**
Stu:** Aside from the fact that we probably disagree which is more “intense”, the point is that sexuality is present in both religions and revered scripts. Therefore to argue one would influence others negatively with respect to sex more than the other is not valid. Reference my point about people being sinners.
**
Jermin Savory:** Stu, sexuality like the Bible’s “Song of Solomon” does not exist in the Qur’an neither does incest exist in the Qur’an. Incess is not the word of God, it is against the word of God, therefore it is not in the Qur’an. My argument is not valid? consider the following being taught to your childred muchless being shown to the people of Saudi Culture as “Good News” Stu: Genesis 19:33:35 "That night they (both the daughters of Lot) gave him (their father Lot) wine to drink and the older daughter had INTERCOURSE with him … "The next day the older daughter said to her sister, I slept with him (Dad) last night. now let’s get him drunk again tonight, and you sleep with him. Then each of us will have a child by our father. So that night they got him drunk and the younger daughter had INTERCOURSE with him “In this way both of Lot’s daughters became PREGNANT by their father.” This is one of the many cases, Will you show this to your children Stu? and you have the nerve to say that my argument is not valid? You are not in the best position to say that the Qur’an is “Carnal.”
Stu: Define modesty. I’m not talking about a woman in a mini-skirt and halter top (which I too do not approve of) but rather a woman dressed with a conservative western appearance (which admittedly exists). I understand the argument that a woman’s dress can tempt a man. Attractive women admittedly catch my eye. But God calls me to rise above that with his help and look at women as my sisters vice objects of sexual gratification both here and in the afterlife.
**
Jermin Savory:** Modesty in islam and according to the Qur’an is speaking with pure and unoffensive words as though rightly guided. And dressing modesty is Clothing the parts of your body that are naturally attractive to the opposite sex, which is Covering the hair, legs, hips, chest and neck. And also modesty is to dress proper. You said “With a conservative western attire.” Conservative sometimes can mean something totally different in someone else’s eyes. What do you consider conservative?
Stu: But God calls me to rise above that with his help and look at women as my sisters vice objects of sexual gratification both here and in the afterlife
**
Jermin Savory: **Yes, God calls us Muslims to rise up above that with his help also, and in addition, God in the Qur’an gives a solution to the problem which is to dress with modesty, and dressing modest is the prevention of commiting adultry with the eyes, which is better than cure. God in the Qur’an protects the modesty of the women by giving her certain guidlines to follow. Speaking of Modesty, this is the reason why the least cases of rape is in Saudi Arabia?
** Stu:** I think your speculation is unfounded. People are sinners, pure and simple.
**
Jermin Savory:** You Quote my whole response as though you were going to respond to it point for point, I don’t see the logic behind you quoting my whole passage with just a comment and thought to make. Where is the answer to my whole passage which addresses the whole subject in essence? You said “I THINK your speculation is unfounded.” Why “Think”? And can you tell me the unfound part of my passage? And about people being sinners, I totally agree with that, I’ve never opposed that fact in my passage.
**
Stu:** Aside from the fact that we probably disagree which is more “intense”, the point is that sexuality is present in both religions and revered scripts. Therefore to argue one would influence others negatively with respect to sex more than the other is not valid. Reference my point about people being sinners.
**
Jermin Savory:** Stu, sexuality like the Bible’s “Song of Solomon” does not exist in the Qur’an neither does incest exist in the Qur’an. Incess is not the word of God, it is against the word of God, therefore it is not in the Qur’an. My argument is not valid? consider the following being taught to your childred muchless being shown to the people of Saudi Culture as “Good News” Stu: Genesis 19:33:35 "That night they (both the daughters of Lot) gave him (their father Lot) wine to drink and the older daughter had INTERCOURSE with him … "The next day the older daughter said to her sister, I slept with him (Dad) last night. now let’s get him drunk again tonight, and you sleep with him. Then each of us will have a child by our father. So that night they got him drunk and the younger daughter had INTERCOURSE with him “In this way both of Lot’s daughters became PREGNANT by their father.” This is one of the many cases, Will you show this to your children Stu? and you have the nerve to say that my argument is not valid? You are not in the best position to say that the Qur’an is “Carnal.”
Stu: Define modesty. I’m not talking about a woman in a mini-skirt and halter top (which I too do not approve of) but rather a woman dressed with a conservative western appearance (which admittedly exists). I understand the argument that a woman’s dress can tempt a man. Attractive women admittedly catch my eye. But God calls me to rise above that with his help and look at women as my sisters vice objects of sexual gratification both here and in the afterlife.
**
Jermin Savory:** Modesty in islam and according to the Qur’an is speaking with pure and unoffensive words as though rightly guided. And dressing modesty is Clothing the parts of your body that are naturally attractive to the opposite sex, which is Covering the hair, legs, hips, chest and neck. And also modesty is to dress proper. You said “With a conservative western attire.” Conservative sometimes can mean something totally different in someone else’s eyes. What do you consider conservative?
Stu: But God calls me to rise above that with his help and look at women as my sisters vice objects of sexual gratification both here and in the afterlife
**
Jermin Savory: **Yes, God calls us Muslims to rise up above that with his help also, and in addition, God in the Qur’an gives a solution to the problem which is to dress with modesty, and dressing modest is the prevention of commiting adultry with the eyes, which is better than cure. God in the Qur’an protects the modesty of the women by giving her certain guidlines to follow. Speaking of Modesty, this is the reason why the least cases of rape is in Saudi Arabia?
- Status