If you are [were] in Saudi Arabia, as a Christian what type of problems you met?

[Stu]

Jermin Savory:

Good Afternoon,
You Quote my whole response as though you were going to respond to it point for point, I don’t see the logic behind you quoting my whole passage with just a comment and thought to make. Where is the answer to my whole passage which addresses the whole subject in essence? You said “I THINK your speculation is unfounded.” Why “Think”? And can you tell me the unfound part of my passage? And about people being sinners, I totally agree with that, I’ve never opposed that fact in my passage.

Unfounded in that it will never be proven. We agree that there are sinners everywhere and will always be. Your assertion that the introduction of the Bible to Saudi will somehow increase sinning is unfounded speculation. No need to elaborate. I might add that my speculation on why the Saudi’s fear the Bible is also speculation. Nonetheless, they fear a book for no good reason.
Jermin Savory:

Stu, sexuality like the Bible’s “Song of Solomon” does not exist in the Qur’an neither does incest exist in the Qur’an. Incess is not the word of God, it is against the word of God, therefore it is not in the Qur’an. My argument is not valid? consider the following being taught to your childred muchless being shown to the people of Saudi Culture as “Good News” Stu: Genesis 19:33:35 "That night they (both the daughters of Lot) gave him (their father Lot) wine to drink and the older daughter had INTERCOURSE with him … "The next day the older daughter said to her sister, I slept with him (Dad) last night. now let’s get him drunk again tonight, and you sleep with him. Then each of us will have a child by our father. So that night they got him drunk and the younger daughter had INTERCOURSE with him “In this way both of Lot’s daughters became PREGNANT by their father.” This is one of the many cases, Will you show this to your children Stu? and you have the nerve to say that my argument is not valid? You are not in the best position to say that the Qur’an is “Carnal.”

Is this part where we trade verses? Koran 78:31
*As for the righteous, they shall surely triumph. Theirs shall be gardens and vineyards, and high- bosomed virgins for companions: a truly overflowing cup
*

Yes, the Bible does document sinners as in the case of Lot’s daughters. That does not mean it condones it. And I have no problem explaining it to my children in that context. Now I would have a problem explaining to my children that in Heaven their will “high-bosomed virgins” as companions to the men .
Jermin Savory:

Modesty in islam and according to the Qur’an is speaking with pure and unoffensive words as though rightly guided. And dressing modesty is Clothing the parts of your body that are naturally attractive to the opposite sex, which is Covering the hair, legs, hips, chest and neck. And also modesty is to dress proper. You said “With a conservative western attire.” Conservative sometimes can mean something totally different in someone else’s eyes. What do you consider conservative?

That fact that it is different is my point. I am not a fan of women flaunting their bodies and in many respects you and I probably agree in this manner. Lack of clothing however does not alway translate in lack of modesty. For instance native people of many lands can still be found coexisting together almost naked. But I also believe that we are all given free will by God and that should be respected (women included).
Jermin Savory:

Speaking of Modesty, this is the reason why the least cases of rape is in Saudi Arabia?

Please provide documentation of this one. And lets not confuse what is reported with what actually transpires. After all, woman are still considered property of their husbands in Saudi Arabia not even being allowed to leave the country without their permission. In the end, if we had a crystal ball, I would suspect the the amount of rape in Saudi Arabia is comparable with the rest of the world. Sinners being everywhere and such.

 

[Jermin_Savory]

Stu: Your assertion that the introduction of the Bible to Saudi will somehow increase sinning is unfounded speculation. No need to elaborate. I might add that my speculation on why the Saudi’s fear the Bible is also speculation. Nonetheless, they fear a book for no good reason.

**
Jermin Savory:** I never used the words you’ve just used to explain my point, my point was that the Bible is A book which we Muslims believe was corrupted and is no longer in its intirety the word of Allah. Thus it was corrupted and no longer exist in its purer form. The government does not fear the book for “no good reason” its just not allowed because it contains blaspemous statments and words that if seen in a pure religious state there would be a big distraction.

**
Stu:** Is this part where we trade verses? Koran 78:31 As for the righteous, they shall surely triumph. Theirs shall be gardens and vineyards, and high- bosomed virgins for companions: a truly overflowing cup
**

Jermin Savory:** And your reason for quoting this specific verse is?

**Stu: **Yes, the Bible does document sinners as in the case of Lot’s daughters. That does not mean it condones it. And I have no problem explaining it to my children in that context. Now I would have a problem explaining to my children that in Heaven their will “high-bosomed virgins” as companions to the men .

Your Bible has a problem of Portraying the Prophets of God as sinners.

Jermin Savory: “That does not mean it condones it,” but ask yourself the Question “Did it condem it”? There is no context explaining this peace of Pornography? its sickning. Prevention is better than cure, I wouldn’t show my children these verses in the first place, let along explain it to them. I sure wouldn’t give my children a book about Women talking about how good their lovers are in bed. A book mentioning How “round” and “tasty” women’s’ breasts and “vaginas” are. A book saying that women’s’ vaginas taste like “wine”. A book teaching them How to flirt and have fornication. This I wouldn’t show to my children. I guess this is where we trade verses again…

A brother having sex with his sister Stu?
2 Samuel 13:5-14 "he took hold of her (Thamar, his sister, not to be confused with Tamar in “c” above, and said unto her, Come lie with me (have sex with me), my sister. "And she answered him, Nay, my brother (Amnon, one of the sons of David, the man after God’s own heart) do not force me . . . "But he would not listen to her, and since he was stronger than she was, he overpowered her and RAPED her (his sister). "

**
Stu:** Please provide documentation of this one. And lets not confuse what is reported with what actually transpires. After all, woman are still considered property of their husbands in Saudi Arabia not even being allowed to leave the country without their permission. In the end, if we had a crystal ball, I would suspect the the amount of rape in Saudi Arabia is comparable with the rest of the world. Sinners being everywhere and such.

**
Jermin Savory:** I notice how you wish to say “Property,” is that you way of promoting the idea. “Not even being allowed to leave the Country without permission.” How would you feel if your wife left the country without asking your permission Stu?

**
Stu:** Please provide documentation of this one

Jermin Savory: This one doesn’t require documentation, its logical similarly if you drink a lot of water like I do, but natural your kidneys would be less in strain as compared to your neighbor who drinks soda morning noon and night. Likewise, a country which has a law that prohibits women and men from being secluded would naturally have a lower case of rapes. A country that implement a teaching of modesty upon women and men would naturally be the country with the least cases of rape.

 

[Stu]

Jermin Savory:

I never used the words you’ve just used to explain my point, my point was that the Bible is A book which we Muslims believe was corrupted and is no longer in its intirety the word of Allah. Thus it was corrupted and no longer exist in its purer form. The government does not fear the book for “no good reason” its just not allowed because it contains blaspemous statments and words that if seen in a pure religious state there would be a big distraction.

And your words are that of fear. If it is so “corrupt” then surely the superior Koran will prevail. But apparently the Saudi government doesn’t see it that way.
Jermin Savory:

And your reason for quoting this specific verse is?

My mistake, I guess the ample-bosomed virgins are their for more nobler purposes. I suspect not however.
Jermin Savory:

Your Bible has a problem of Portraying the Prophets of God as sinners.

Yes as the imperfect men and women that they are and testaments that even God can cut with a dull knife.
Jermin Savory:

“That does not mean it condones it,” but ask yourself the Question “Did it condem it”? There is no context explaining this peace of Pornography? its sickning. Prevention is better than cure, I wouldn’t show my children these verses in the first place, let along explain it to them. I sure wouldn’t give my children a book about Women talking about how good their lovers are in bed. A book mentioning How “round” and “tasty” women’s’ breasts and “vaginas” are. A book saying that women’s’ vaginas taste like “wine”. A book teaching them How to flirt and have fornication. This I wouldn’t show to my children. I guess this is where we trade verses again…

A brother having sex with his sister Stu?
2 Samuel 13:5-14 "he took hold of her (Thamar, his sister, not to be confused with Tamar in “c” above, and said unto her, Come lie with me (have sex with me), my sister. "And she answered him, Nay, my brother (Amnon, one of the sons of David, the man after God’s own heart) do not force me . . . "But he would not listen to her, and since he was stronger than she was, he overpowered her and RAPED her (his sister). "

And somehow I and everyone else I know realized it was documenting it vice condoning not to mention if one reads the whole Bible the context is quite evident with man repeatedly failing to live up to God’s ideal forcing God himself to come down in the form of Man to do the job on his own. As for the Song of Solomon, nowhere in Chrisitianity is sex between married couples not allowed. It is, as you would agree, a gift from God. So what if the Bible speak of it. But as far as my kids seeing, that is why I am here as their Father to put all things in perspective.
Jermin Savory:

I notice how you wish to say “Property,” is that you way of promoting the idea. “Not even being allowed to leave the Country without permission.” How would you feel if your wife left the country without asking your permission Stu?

Well if she left me I wouldn’t feel to good but fortunately as a man I don’t need the government involved to keep my wife happy or to stay with me. As the spiritual head of my home I provide the spiritual, material and emotional needs for both her and my children or as Christ taught the greatest will be the least. And in treating her as part of me, since in God’s eyes we are one, she doesn’t want to leave.
Jermin Savory:

This one doesn’t require documentation, its logical similarly if you drink a lot of water like I do, but natural your kidneys would be less in strain as compared to your neighbor who drinks soda morning noon and night. Likewise, a country which has a law that prohibits women and men from being secluded would naturally have a lower case of rapes. A country that implement a teaching of modesty upon women and men would naturally be the country with the least cases of rape.

Couldn’t find any evidence huh? We’ll just categorize this assertion as “unfounded speculation” as well.

 

[Jermin_Savory]

Stu: And your words are that of fear. If it is so “corrupt” then surely the superior Koran will prevail. But apparently the Saudi government doesn’t see it that way.

**
Jermin Savory:** No they see it in a way that Christian are tring to spread corruption, and the corruption they are refering to is the concept of God you have that goes against the teachings of the Prophet of God (P) like abraham.

**Stu: ** Yes as the imperfect men and women that they are and testaments that even God can cut with a dull knife.

**
Jermin Savory:** No, the things you accuse them of, half of the time they didn’t do.

**
Stu:** As for the Song of Solomon, nowhere in Chrisitianity is sex between married couples not allowed. It is, as you would agree, a gift from God. So what if the Bible speak of it. But as far as my kids seeing, that is why I am here as their Father to put all things in perspective.
**

Jermin Savory**: You said “No where in the bible says that sex is not allowed” I never stated that so why would you assert that it is allowed? It doesn’t say sex is not allowed, but why doesn’t it say that incest is not allowed? So I guess incest is allowed? You have stared away from the topic asserting the word sex as though I said it wasn’t allowed, I never said that, what I said was the Pornographic senes that are they are shameful, I never claimed or said that sex was not allowed.

**
Stu:** Well if she left me I wouldn’t feel to good but fortunately as a man I don’t need the government involved to keep my wife happy or to stay with me. As the spiritual head of my home I provide the spiritual, material and emotional needs for both her and my children or as Christ taught the greatest will be the least. And in treating her as part of me, since in God’s eyes we are one, she doesn’t want to leave.

**
Jermin Savory:** Likewise we don’t need the government to make our lives happy in marrage either but It should be the duty of the wife to let the husband know before they go anywhere, likewise, the wife should know where the husband goes.

**
Stu:** Couldn’t find any evidence huh? We’ll just categorize this assertion as “unfounded speculation” as well.
**

Jermin Savory:** It doesn’t require big research to know the least cases of rape is Saudi Arabia and I’ve logically explained to you why I would conclude that.

 

[Stu]

Jermin Savory:

etc, etc, etc.

Jermin you are at the very least being willfully obtuse in your attempts by making unfounded conclusions with no proof or not at least recognizing the logic of points I have made in support of our orginal exchange whether you agree with them or not. Whatever your real issue, I see no reason in discussing further with you as we seem to be spiralling into you making even more outlandish claims with nothing for them to stand upon other than your own assertion of their validity. I suggest you rethink your tact.

I wish you peace and God’s blessings.

 

[Jermin_Savory]

Stu: Jermin you are at the very least being willfully obtuse in your attempts by making unfounded conclusions with no proof or not at least recognizing the logic of points I have made in support of our orginal exchange whether you agree with them or not.
**

Jermin Savory:** You have not said anything logical yet, I’ve asked you if the Bible condemns incest and you haven’t given me an answer and this is the way you walk off? Its ok, I wasn’t expecting an answer, there isn’t even a context for it, thus a commentary explaining why such a pornographical schene exist in the text, and you wilfully would try to spread this message to others in Saudi Arabia? to do what, corrupt the minds of the little children?

**
Stu:** Whatever your real issue, I see no reason in discussing further with you as we seem to be spiralling into you making even more outlandish claims with nothing for them to stand upon other than your own assertion of their validity. I suggest you rethink your tack.

**
Jermin Savory:** Well everyone is entitled to their own opinions, I’ve logically explained to you why I would conclude that the least Cases of rapes would be in Saudi Arabia, however you chose not to buy my explanation, anyone who goes through the posts in which you were debating me they would see that you were ignoring a lot of things that I’ve said and thus running from a lot of points i’ve made.

And i’m still waiting for an answer as to whether this verse is condemed in the bible. If you chose not to answer, its ok…
**
Genesis 19:33:35**

"That night they (both the daughters of Lot) gave him (their father Lot) wine to drink and the older daughter had INTERCOURSE with him … "The next day the older daughter said to her sister, I slept with him (Dad) last night. now let’s get him drunk again tonight, and you sleep with him. Then each of us will have a child by our father. So that night they got him drunk and the younger daughter had INTERCOURSE with him “In this way both of Lot’s daughters became PREGNANT by their father.”

 

[selvaraj]

Hello Jermin,

As per your answers you know nothing about Saudi Arabia and Bahrain. Last 20 years I am in the Gulf (Saudi and Bahrain). Most of the Saudis are crossing the bridge for sex and drink. The whole money spent by the Saudi government to build that bridge for the enjoyment of Saudis. Please if you dont know, say I dont know about Saudi much.
God bless you.
In Christ,
selvarj

 

[Jermin_Savory]

Hey Mr. Selvaraj

selvaraj: As per your answers you know nothing about Saudi Arabia and Bahrain. Last 20 years I am in the Gulf (Saudi and Bahrain). Most of the Saudis are crossing the bridge for sex and drink. The whole money spent by the Saudi government to build that bridge for the enjoyment of Saudis. Please if you dont know, say I dont know about Saudi much.

**
Jermin Savory:** Your answer is totally irrevelant to the question that was asked. My Question was, is their a context in the Bible that condones the incest that it contains. The question was not whether I knew sauidi arabia or not. To besides, They are black sheeps in every community and no none is perfect, just like we have Christians that do absurdities. A lot of money spent by church goers to build and take care of churches are being spent by pastors for need of enjoyment, if you would like to talk about wasting money. I care less About saudi arabia and what is done at the other end of the bridge. Very poor attempt to divert the topic of discussion.

Genesis 19:33:35

"That night they (both the daughters of Lot) gave him (their father Lot) wine to drink and the older daughter had INTERCOURSE with him … "The next day the older daughter said to her sister, I slept with him (Dad) last night. now let’s get him drunk again tonight, and you sleep with him. Then each of us will have a child by our father. So that night they got him drunk and the younger daughter had INTERCOURSE with him “In this way both of Lot’s daughters became PREGNANT by their father.”

 

[selvaraj]

Jermin Savory:

Hey Mr. Selvaraj

Genesis 19:33:35

"That night they (both the daughters of Lot) gave him (their father Lot) wine to drink and the older daughter had INTERCOURSE with him … "The next day the older daughter said to her sister, I slept with him (Dad) last night. now let’s get him drunk again tonight, and you sleep with him. Then each of us will have a child by our father. So that night they got him drunk and the younger daughter had INTERCOURSE with him “In this way both of Lot’s daughters became PREGNANT by their father.”

Listen my friend, We are in a new covenant with Christ and you are asking about the old covenant. Please read this Bible words.

Bible says in Luke 16:16 "The law of Moses(Old Testament) and the writings of the prophets were in effect up to the time of John the Baptist; since then the Good News about the Kingdom of God is being told, and everyone forces his way in.
In Christ,
selvaraj

 

[selvaraj]

Jermin Savory:

Hey Mr. Selvaraj
Genesis 19:33:35
"That night they (both the daughters of Lot) gave him (their father Lot) wine to drink and the older daughter had INTERCOURSE with him … "The next day the older daughter said to her sister, I slept with him (Dad) last night. now let’s get him drunk again tonight, and you sleep with him. Then each of us will have a child by our father. So that night they got him drunk and the younger daughter had INTERCOURSE with him “In this way both of Lot’s daughters became PREGNANT by their father.”

Who was Lot?
Lot was Prophet Abraham(Ibrahim)s brothers son. Ref. 1.Genesis 13:8 Then Abraham(Ibrahim) said to Lot, "We are relatives, and your men and my men shouldnt be quarreling. Ref.2.Genesis 14:12 Lot, Abraham(Ibrahim)s nephew was living in Sodom. So this is not a matter to us only, a matter to you also.

 

[Jermin_Savory]

Good Morning Selvaraj

Selvaraj: Listen my friend, We are in a new covenant with Christ and you are asking about the old covenant. Please read this Bible words. Bible says in Luke 16:16 "The law of Moses(Old Testament) and the writings of the prophets were in effect up to the time of John the Baptist; since then the Good News about the Kingdom of God is being told, and everyone forces his way in.
In Christ.
**

Jermin Savory:** For Sake of Argument I’ll pretend you are really influenced by a new covenant with Christ.

In Matthew: 1:3 "And Judas begat Phares and Zarah of Thamar .INCEST AND RAPE BETWEEN BROTHER AND SISTER (d) " he took hold of her (Thamar, his sister, and said unto her, Come lie with me (have sex with me), my sister. "And she answered him, Nay, my brother (Amnon, one of the sons of David, the man after God’s own heart) do not force me, "But he would not listen to her, and since he was stronger than she was, he overpowered her and RAPED her (his sister).

Is there a context for this verse showing that it was a bad deed or explaining that incest is not allowed? If so, please provide me with a context for it because I would be scared to give my daught your Bible to read without something showing that it is a lesson or something being rebuked.

 

[Jermin_Savory]

Selvaraj: Lot was Prophet Abraham(Ibrahim)s brothers son. Ref. 1.Genesis 13:8 Then Abraham(Ibrahim) said to Lot, "We are relatives, and your men and my men shouldnt be quarreling. Ref.2.Genesis 14:12 Lot, Abraham(Ibrahim)s nephew was living in Sodom. So this is not a matter to us only, a matter to you also.

Jermin Savory: No selvaraj, this is not a matter to the Muslims because our Qur’an rebuke such incidents, whereas your Bible doesn’t, you bible doesn’t presennt a context rebukeing those incidents which is why I say that I would not give A book as such to my children because they would be shocked. You would think after all of the revisions the Bible has been through the revisers would have put a context or footnote at the bottom or at the side of this verse explaining a condemnation of such a pornographic scene. And this is the Book you and Stu would like to evangelize in Saudi Arabia? where there are kids that has never seen an imodestly dressed woman outside of their house?

 

[selvaraj]

Jermin Savory:

Selvaraj:
Jermin Savory: No selvaraj, this is not a matter to the Muslims because our Qur’an rebuke such incidents, whereas your Bible doesn’t, you bible doesn’t presennt a context rebukeing those incidents which is why I say that I would not give A book as such to my children because they would be shocked. You would think after all of the revisions the Bible has been through the revisers would have put a context or footnote at the bottom or at the side of this verse explaining a condemnation of such a pornographic scene. And this is the Book you and Stu would like to evangelize in Saudi Arabia? where there are kids that has never seen an imodestly dressed woman outside of their house?

Bible was before Quran. Quran is copied from the Bible, and whatever Mohammed needed he taken from that and whatever he didnot need he omitted. If your children ask about 72 wives in paradise or how Mohammed got married with a 9 year old girl are not a problem to explain to your children.
In Christ,
selvaraj

 

[Jermin_Savory]

Selvaraj: Bible was before Quran. Quran is copied from the Bible, and whatever Mohammed needed he taken from that and whatever he didnot need he omitted.

**
Jermin Savory**: My freind, the argument that because the Qur’an came after the Bible it Must be copied from the bible is not logical, especially when you analyze the Qur’an. Allow me to educate you Brother. 1. The thought that Muhummad (P) authored the Qur’an or copied from other sources can be disproved by the single historical fact that he was illiterate. 2. The Arabic version of the Bible was not present at the time of Prophet Muhummad (pbuh). The earliest Arabic version of the Old Testament is that of R. Saadias Gaon of 900 C.E. - more than 250 years after the death of our beloved Prophet. 3. Similarities between the Qur’an and the Bible does not necessarily mean that the former has been copied from the latter. 4. there are some similar parallels between the Qur’an and the Bible but this is not sufficient to accuse Muhummad (P) of compiling or copying from the Bible. The same logic would then also be applicable to teachings of Christianity and Judaism and thus one could wrongly claim that Jesus (pbuh) was not a genuine Prophet (God forbid) and that he simply copied from the Old Testament.

A further Correction is that According to the Bible both the sun and the moon emit their own light. In the Book of Genesis, chapter 1:16 says, “And God made two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night”.

“Science tells us today that the moon does not have its own light. This confirms the Qur’anic concept that the light of the moon is a reflected light. To think that 1400 years ago, Prophet Muhummad (P) corrected these scientific errors in the Bible and then copied such corrected passages in the Qur’an is to think of something impossible.” So as you can see, to say that the Qur’an was copied from the bible is not possible because the Prophet (P) would have had many mistakes to correct before he copied them into the Qur’an. Please think about your arguments before you put them forth.

**Selvaraj: If your children ask about 72 wives in paradise or how Mohammed got married with a 9 year old girl are not a problem to explain to your children.
**
Jermin Savory: Your first objection: Today ofcorse it will look strange to you that a 9 year old was married to an adult but you have a limit to your understanding for the simple fact that People used to have very short life-spans in Arabia at this time period. They used to live between 40-50 to 60 years maximum. So it was only normal and natural for girls to be married off at ages 9 or 10 or 12 or similar. Marriage for young girls was widely practiced among Arabs back then, and even today in many third-world non-Muslim and Muslim countries. So to say it is strange or funny is to not have the understanding that life and culture back then is way distinct from the life and cultures today. And note the fact that the Prophet’s (P) marriage was lagit, the parents agree with it and also the community.

Silveraj, How do you explain the many 11 and 12 year old Christian girls that got married recently in romania and other Christian countries? These marrages took place recently, which is a more advance time period than the time of the Prophet in Arabia. (P)
In short, please think about your arguments before you put them forth, they are pretty week.

 

[selvaraj]

Hello Jermin,
What Jesus Christ says about Adultery in Mathew 5:27-28.
“You have heard that it was said, Do not commit adultery. But now I tell you: anyone who looks at a woman and wants to possess her is guilty of committing adultery with her in his heart.
Also you have mentioned something about the science. Many things written in the Bible are proven by science to day. I have given a link here please visit it. manavai.com/n_articles_p8.htm
Before Christ was given up to death,(Mathew 26:26-27)
Jesus took a piece of bread, gave a prayer of thanks, broke it. and gave it to his disciples. “Take and eat it.” he said;” this is my body."
Then he took a cup, gave thanks to God. and gave it to them.“Drink it. all of you.” he said; "this is my blood, which seals God`s covenant, my blood poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
We Catholics stongly believe this and many Eucharist miracles are happened, for you I have given a link here which was proven by science.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

 

[Jermin_Savory]

Selvaraj, I wish not to debate with you, its not the way of the Muslim, but you’ve insulted my Prophet and my religion (P) which I don’t think is catholic like to insult other people beliefs.

Jermin Savory: Brother, you have totally changed the topic, but its alright. You went off to talk about the Crucificion, (The Alleged Crucifiction of Jesus. (P) No where in my passage did I mention the “Crucifixion” or adultry. You wen’t off to mention to me about science in the Bible, if this is a topic you wan’t to discuss I would be more than happy to discuss the Qur’an and the Bible in the light of Science.

Jermin Savory:
'The Bible speaks about the creation of the universe. In the beginning, 1st Book, Book of Genesis, 1st Ch., it is mentioned - It says… ‘Almighty God created the Heavens and the Earth, in six days and talks about a evening and a morning, referring to a 24 - hour day. Today scientists tell us, that the universe cannot be created in a 24 hour period of six days. Qur’an too speaks about six ‘ayyams’. The Arabic word singular is ‘yaum’ plural is ‘ayyam’. It can either mean a day of 24 hours, or it is a very long period, an ‘yaum’, an epoch. Scientists say we have no objection in agreeing that the universe - it could have been created in 6 very long periods. Point No.2 - Bible says in Genesis Ch. No. 1 Verses No. 3 and 5,…‘Light was created on the first day.’ enesis, Ch., 1 Verses, 14 to 19… ‘The cause of light - stars and the sun, etc. was created on the fourth day’. How can the cause of light be created on the 4th day - later than the light which came into existence on the first day? - It is unscientific. Further, the, Bible says Genesis, Ch. 1, Verses 9 to 13… ‘Earth was created on the 3rd day. How can you have a night and day without the earth ? The day depends upon the rotation of the Earth Without the earth created, how can you have a night and day? Point No…4, Genesis, Ch. No. 1 Verses 9 to 13 says… ‘Earth was created on the third day.’ Genesis Ch. No. 1 Verses 14 to 19 says…‘The Sun and the Moon were created on the fourth day.’ Today science tells us… ‘Earth is part of the parent body… the sun.’ It cannot come into existence before the sun – It is unscientific. Point No. 5, the Bible says in Genesis, Ch. No.1, Verse No. 11 to 13…‘The vegetation, the herbs the shrubs, the trees - they were created on the 3rd day And the Sun, Genesis, Ch. No. 1, Verses. 14 to 19, was created on the 4th day.How can the vegetation come into existence without sunlight, and how can they survive without sunlight ? Point No.6, that the Bible says in Genesis, Ch. 1, Verses No.16, that…‘God created two lights the greater light, the Sun to rule the day, and the lesser light the Moon, to rule the night. The actual translation, if you go to the Hebrew text, it is ‘lamps’…‘Lamps having lights of its own.’ And that you will come to know better, if you read both the Verses – Genesis, Ch. No.1, Verse. 16, as well as 17. Verse No.17 says…‘And Almighty God placed them in the firmament, to give light to the earth… To give light to the earth.’ Indicating, that Sun and the Moon has its own light - which is in contradiction with established scientific knowledge that we have. There are certain people who try and reconciliate, and say that the six days mentioned in the Bible, it actually refers to epocs - like the Qur’an long periods - not six, 24 hour day. It is illogical - you read in the Bible, evening, morning - It clearly states 24 hours, it indicates. But even if I use the concordance approach - no problem. I agree with your illogical argument - Yet you will only be able to solve the 1st scientific error of 6 days creation, and second, of first day ‘light’ and 3rd day ‘earth.’ The remaining four, yet you cannot solve. Some further say that… ‘If it is a 24-hour period, why cannot the vegetables survive for one 24 hour day without sunlight?’ I say ‘Fine - If you say that the vegetables were created before the sun, and can survive for one 24-hour day, I have got no objection. But you cannot say the days mentioned are 24 hours as well as epochs - You cannot have the cake and eat it, both. If you say it is long period, you solve Point No.1 and 3, the remaining 4 errors are yet there. If you say the days are 24 hours day, you solve only Point No.5 - the remaining 5 errors are yet there - It becomes unscientific. I leave it to you, whether you want to say… ‘It is long period’, and say that there are only 4 scientific errors - or say… ‘It is a 24 hour day’, and say there is only 5 scientific errors in the creation of the universe."

 

[selvaraj]

Mr.Jermin,

Could you read the title of this topic once again? I actually started this thread for a study purpose and you entered here and diverted the discussion. Please if you have questions we have forum titled Ask an Appologists, you can raise your questions there or you can start your own thread. Instead of blaming me please do participate in other threads because you haven`t been in Saudi Arabia to answer this thread.
Thanking you for the discussions.
In Christ,
selvaraj

 

[Jermin_Savory]

What makes you believe that i’ve never been to saudi arabia?

 

[selvaraj]

Jermin Savory:

What makes you believe that i’ve never been to saudi arabia?

Hello Jermin,
From your honest discussion I found that, anyway thankyou once again for the discussions. Please do participate in this forum.
In Christ,
selvaraj