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Katrina5
Guest
You are a left brainer.
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Without free will, there is no divine spark that is the immortal soul.
Man is made in the image of God. That image is the free will, the immortal soul.
No other creature on earth was made in this image, no other creature on earth lives on after the physical body dies.
I am sure it is a discomfort to some, but we can love these animals all we want, but must realize that when they die, they cease to exist.
Of course, as I told my own son, if you need a pet in heaven for it to be paradise, I am sure one will be provided.
But that leaves the person grasping at some need in heaven that God does not fulfill.
A tall order indeed.
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Katrina5
Guest
I just looked you up, and you’re a computer person…I’m glad you take that as a compliment.
Actually, I’m ambidextrous. I had to learn to use my left hand (I’m right handed=left brain dominant) in Art class. (Art=right brain) Aced Logic and Philosophy in College.
I am a MacHead…love anything that starts with a small i.
Do MacHeads go to heaven? If it takes an iMac to make me happy in heaven, will God provide one?
Seriously, I wrote to someone else about babies born with brain damage, too damaged to sin, too helpless to do anything? Am I just overly-categorizing and being rigid?
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Katrina5
Guest
I think I will just stick with “Eye has not seen, ear has not heard, what God has ready for those who love Him.”
No matter the condition of the human, it is still God’s image.
And as such, there is an immortal soul.
Perhaps that is one of the mysteries we will not learn this side of death.
How are those incapable of a decision judged?
Of course, given testimony of those that claim to have had an NDE, perhaps the same way we all will. It is reported that we are shown our life and provided the capacity to see every act and decision as it effected everyone else.
Since our perception is being increased to suit the occasion, perhaps the same holds for those that have very little capacity for decisions here on earth.
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puzzleannie
Guest
animals do have souls but this says nothing about evolution either way. Humans have human souls, angels have angelic souls, and both of these live eternally. Animals have animal souls which die when the animal dies. Even plants have souls, which die when the plant dies. This is old news, its all in Aquinas.
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kmuestwin
Guest
I think you are trying to hard to make heaven into something that you can relate to.
Pets here = pets there
Computer here = computer there
In heaven, it will just be us and God. That’s all we need to make us happy.
Babies born with brain damage are still born with original sin and should be baptized. If they are not baptized before they pass away from their complications then they go to heaven.
I don’t see how you can equate human life with a cat or dog. They are on two different levels. It’s a bit rude to compare a suffering child to a house pet.
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CrazyRachel
Guest
I believe animals have souls and that they go to Heaven. If thats not the case then why was St Francis made the patron Saint of animals? He loved the little birds so much that he preached to them and they listened. If they didnt have souls then St Francis wouldnt have been sent by God to preach to them and take care of them. What was the point otherwise? Awww good old St Francis :tiphat: He’s cool.
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vsedriver
Guest
I’m a Machead too. Also ambidextrous with a degree in fine art and a minor in philosophy.
I love my dogs, especially my favorite who died 4 years ago. I love my pony. But when they die they will not live on. That’s OK for me since I will still have the love for them in my heart and that will live on.
I don’t believe I will have any needs in heaven otherwise it will not be heaven. Being in the presence of God is all I will want or ever need. But I’m OK with it if He wants to give me a huge farm with all the ponies and dogs I could ever want.
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Katrina5
Guest
I didn’t mean to be rude. Someone once said about a child I took care of who was profoundly retarded, “She might even be less than human.”
(Now that’s rude.)
I think, given this discussion, we have to come to the conclusion, “We don’t know. God doesn’t tell us everything, they’re called mysteries”.
I DO know, I will see that little girl in heaven. She died at 13.
St Anthony is the patron Saint of lost items.
Does that mean lost items have an immortal soul?
St Francis was sent to preach to any that would listen.
The fact that animals may listen to the message does not automatically grant them an immortal soul.
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Katrina5
Guest
It was a sort of attempt at humor-- I won’t need an iMac in heaven. Though sometimes I think the Intake dept “up there” could update it’s technology. It takes so long to get an answer to prayer, it’s like being put on hold. JUST KIDDING!
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Katrina5
Guest
Aquinas was wrong about a few things! He thought female souls started later than males, and that women were “Flawed men.” I am not a flawed man.
ALL souls begin at conception.
We now know about DNA, which Aquinas didn’t. In fact, that’s the argument about abortion-- look at the DNA of an embryo, it is whatever species the parents are.
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ddarko
Guest
God loves all of his creation. He loves them appropriately. That is why we are called to love appropriately.
We do not love animals similar to humans. Animals have a different form of dignity that humans. Humans were created in the Image of God. Do you know what it means in Scripture when it states this? ("So God created humankind in his image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them". - Genesis 1:27)
It means that God made us his own. He became our father. (If you have theological doubt, it would help to find out where else in the Genesis the phrase “in the likeness” or equivalent is used (see Genesis 5:3 for an example)) We humans are in his likeness in that we are his sons and daughters. Animals are not.
Animals are like ornaments or tools in the beautiful house that God has created in the universe. God is the head of the house. He cares for everything in the house. BUT, he cares for his sons and daughters that live in the house more. Which father wouldn’t? Just the fact that you and I are human (even if we are disabled, psychologically ill, atheist, sinners etc) gives us a dignity unlike any animal. We are sons and daughters of God. But it does not apply to Ornaments in the house.
Now God may or may not choose to have these ornaments in heaven. It is pointless for us to argue about it. What you and I must understand is that humans are a million times worthy than an animal. A dog that has saved a 100 lives is worthless compared to a human being that has committed a 100 crimes. Why? Because that human is a son or daughter of God while the dog is an ornament or equipment in the house.
To think and act differently is sinful.
God Bless
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ddarko
Guest
I don’t want to get in to this but I thought I would clarify.
St. Thomas Aquinas may of course be wrong on things. But I just wanted to make sure you understood what he properly meant about women though.
He did not mean that Women were defective in general. In fact, a major chunk of his writings on the philosophy of women deal with clarifying this. He himself realized that he couldn’t say such a thing because Women existed before the fall of man. So to say that women were defective means that God created defects.
So what Aquinas actually means is that women are defective in the sense of generation. In a sense his emphasis is on the bodily difference of men and women. Not on the person of male or female and definitely NOT in the spiritual sense. In fact, most of Aquinas writings show how men and women are both equal in dignity.
For most feminist, St. Thomas Aquinas’s teachings rub the wrong way. They seem to think men and women as equal in everything. That was never the Catholic teaching and is blatantly false. Men and Women are equal in human dignity but they are not equal in all things. They are complementary.
For a better understanding of the views of St. Thomas Aquinas on women, the following might help
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=2793
Again, this is not to get in to an argument but just to clarify things because it seemed like you might have read a misconceived view of St. Thomas Aquinas’s teachings.
God Bless
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