If you CAN'T avoid sinning, is it still a sin?

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jjb5985:
I agree as I’m sure most would that “wasting” food for absolutely no reason isn’t a good thing to do whether immoral or not. As far as spending money on wasted food that could go to charity, I think that is a valid point. However, taken to an extreme for a potentially scrupulous person, “money not going to charity” could be applied to just about anything we spend money on that we don’t absolutely need or end up using.

Wasting money or food purposely for no good reason would never be a good idea of course. That isn’t the point here though. Not to many people go to the store to buy food and then throw it away when they get home for no reason. The “wasting” of food is usually done because there is a reason. The food can’t be saved and the person is full or it has gone bad or something. (or they got meat on a lenten friday) So, there is a valid reason to get rid of it. It isn’t ideal, but I doubt it is immoral when the circumstance demands it. Otherwise, you could argue that if you were to lets say force yourself to eat food when you were full in order to not waste it, you are commiting the sin of gluttony by eating in excess when your body doesn’t want it and you contribute to potential obesity and the health problems with it. That arguement is about as valid as saying throwing the steak away is a sin. So you’d be in a lose/lose with this sort of thinking. As a scrupulous person myself, I know all about this type of unhealthy thinking and really if the situation demands some sort of compromise (force yourself to eat/waste food) just deal with it however you feel is best and go on as it is hardly grave enough to worry about.

Now in THIS particular situation, there IS a potentially grave matter at hand and it should be taken more seriously. Try to save the steak if you can or give it away, but if you can’t, so be it. Get rid of it in favor of not commiting that established and known serious sin of knowingly eating meat on a day you shouldn’t vs. the minor and very questionably “sinful” getting rid of something you payed for and decided not to use. It isn’t like steak is a non-renewable resource.
This is why I quoted CCC 1438 in my earlier post.
Unless there is some rule peculiar to America, the eating of meat is not forbidden on days of obligation (every Friday and at Lent).You are required to do some form of penance of which not eating meat is a choice you may or may not make. The additional requirement for Ash Wednesday and Good Friday is that you have to fast which means only one full meal.
 
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thistle:
This is why I quoted CCC 1438 in my earlier post.
Unless there is some rule peculiar to America, the eating of meat is not forbidden on days of obligation (every Friday and at Lent).You are required to do some form of penance of which not eating meat is a choice you may or may not make. The additional requirement for Ash Wednesday and Good Friday is that you have to fast which means only one full meal.
In the US, we are required to abstain from meat every Friday in Lent and on Ash Wednesday. We are also required to fast on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.
 
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maryalene:
In the US, we are required to abstain from meat every Friday in Lent and on Ash Wednesday. We are also required to fast on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.
Thanks.
I actually abstain from meat every Friday in the year anyway. I find it the easiest penance to remember.
On an odd occasion I have had meat for lunch when I forgot so I would then miss dinner that evening and only take bread and water thereby still doing a penance.
 
Everyone can avoid sinning if they seek prayer to lead them not into temptation. I understand you are hungry, but usually with a steak there are side dishes…like potatos, veggies, bread soup etc…
I don’t think you would suffer with a smaller meal. Take the steak home and enjoy on Thursday. Get the picture! Don’t eat it. And if you realize it after you already started…eating prior to realization is no sin…eating after becomes one.

I think you already know that, don’t you?
 
Sir Knight:
I was always taught that in order for something to be a sin, a person must know that it is a sin and must want to do it. Suppose you know that something is a sin and really don’t want to do it but have no way out and consciously do it. Is it still a sin?
Well if you are consciously doing it then there is a way out, i.e. not doing it. But you could ask whether something which is ordinarily a sin would still be a sin when not doing it would have some negative consequences like in your example. For some things that are intrinsically evil (like denying Christ), it wouldn’t matter; it would still be a sin. For other things which are not intrinsically evil (like eating meat on Ash Wednesday) it can matter.
For example … Let’s say it’s Ash Wednesday or Good Friday and that fact totally slips your mind. You go to supper with friends and order a thick steak. As you are about to take the first bite, it suddenly hits you that it is Ash Wednesday (or Good Friday). Assuming the place does not provide doggie bags for you to take the food home to eat on a later day, what do you do?
I think you could just assume there that the Church when making that legislation didn’t want you to follow it so strictly that you would end up wasting food. I think you should think of Church laws as rules laid down by a mother that cares for your well being. I mean obviously for instance if you were homeless and the only food you had was meat, the Church would not ask you to have that food go to waste on Fridays of Lent. Likewise, I think if you were poor or even if you are rich but you have a charity for the poor or homeless that makes you not want to waste any food, then the Church would not ask you to deliberately waste food in that circumstance.

Another situation might be if you were a guest in some foreign country and some hosts served you meat on a day of abstinence and they would be greatly offended if you didn’t have any and because of an inability to communicate (i.e. they do not speak English and you do not speak their language) you could not explain the reason for refusing their dish – well the Church would not ask you to hold fast to the law so strictly here that you would cause great emotional offense and distress to your hosts. The purpose of all the Church’s laws is to help us increase our charity, our love of God and love of our neighbor in God’s love – we do not fast or abstain for its own sake, but for the sake of God who loves the poor, the hungry, and does not want to see hosts suffer emotional harm. In the case of fasting and abstinence it is in particular meant to foster a life of prayer.

Though this is not required, you could if you wanted to in any of the above circumstances where you end up eating meat, do some other little thing to make yourself one with the Church’s prayer and fasting and abstinence – maybe pass on desert or something like that.
Back to the orignal question – if you know that something is a sin and really don’t want to do it but have no way out and consciously do it anyway, is it still a sin?
It is but your example is not like that. In your example, what would ordinarily be a sin is not a sin. That’s because the Church’s laws are not supposed to be interpreted so strictly and rigidly that they would interfere with normal, healthy human living – including the right desire to not waste food, especially when so many today are hungry.

Another example would be going to Mass. The Church does not expect or require you to go to Mass on Sunday if the only for you to go would be say a 2 hour drive or say a 1 hour walk … those would be clear cases … or even if it was only a 10 minute walk but it was raining cats and dogs. Just think to yourself would our Mother the Church want me to do this? When the Church enacted this law did she really mean for me to follow it so strictly and exactly so as to do even this?

This principle of interpreting law is called in Catholicism “epikeia” As I mentioned, it doesn’t apply to things that are intrinsically wrong such as hating God.

Incidentally what you wondered about does apply to cases of placing one’s self unintentionally in an occasion of sin. If there’s as you say “no way out” – then it’s not a sin for you to place yourself in an occasion of sin as long as you are not trying to tempt yourself. So for instance, if a member of the opposite sex wants to shake your hand and shaking this person’s hand has in the past been an occasion of sin (thoughts of lust) – you can still go ahead and shake his hand, since not doing so could offend him greatly … and you can rely on God through prayer so that you don’t commit any mortal sin there.
 
I think if you are placed in a situation where you have no choice but do something that might be a sin (rape would be an extreme example) than it is not a sin. However, I think in a lot of situations, there are a number of options available, even if they aren’t particularly great options.

Do you mean, if you are in danger of being raped it might not be a sin if you do something which would normally be sinful?

Surely not someone is forcing you to rape someone, so it’s not a sin???
 
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Verity1:
Do you mean, if you are in danger of being raped it might not be a sin if you do something which would normally be sinful?

Surely not someone is forcing you to rape someone, so it’s not a sin???
No, I’m sorry if I was not clear. I was saying that a victim of rape has committed no sin. Extra-marital sex is a mortal sin, but if someone rapes you, you are not sinning because you have been forced into having extra-marital sex. Does that make sense?
 
Back to the original question – if you know that something is a sin and really don’t want to do it but have no way out and consciously do it anyway, is it still a sin?
Well, IMHO, the situation as described is impossible. Mutual contradiction. If you really have NO way out, then it is no longer a conscious choice. SO you can never have the actual situation you ask about.

The problem with your fictitious example is that there is no force involved. No one is forcing you to eat the steak. If the restaurant doesn’t provide boxes, find another solution. Napkin, whatever. And worst case, you didn’t intentionally order the steak to waste it, so you didn’t choose to sin. This is no more a sin than your freezer breaking and all the contents spoiling. It is a waste, but it isn’t an intentional waste, and therefore not a sin.
 
I don’t see how you are “forced” to eat steak just because you order it. I agree… .you are not being forced. Just becasue you already spent money or you don’t want to waste food is not the same as being forced or having no way out. And your hypothetical example of “no doggie” bag could really never be since you could always wrap it up in a napkin or ask for tin foil.

But…what about the “slipped your mind” part. I wonder if that’s not the real sin. Is that an acceptable excuse…“I forgot?” If you forget it’s Sunday and miss Mass, or forget you missed Mass and then receive the next Mass without going to confession…etc. etc.

I have eaten meat on a Friday during Lent becasue “I forgot.” I still thought I had sinned and the fact that it wasn’t intentional didn’t make me feel better. The fact that I forgot something as simple as abstaining from meat during lent, hurt me. Our Lord suffered beyond our comprehension for our salvation and I’m asked to do an insignificant sacrifice like giving up meat one day a week…I think the sin is in the forgetting.
 
Sir Knight:
And if, as I pointed out above, the place does not provide dogie bags to take food home, what then?
I would explain the situation and ask them to bring me some shrimp. You will prbably have to pay for the staek also but you have done some powerful witnessing of your faith to your frineds and the waiter.

As far as wasing food-i dont recall that being a mortal sin.
 
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maryalene:
No, I’m sorry if I was not clear. I was saying that a victim of rape has committed no sin. Extra-marital sex is a mortal sin, but if someone rapes you, you are not sinning because you have been forced into having extra-marital sex. Does that make sense?
Perfect sense. Thanks Maryalene.

Verity1
 
Sir Knight:
But wasting the food is STILL a sin as well.
Exactly. Also it makes a spectacle and speaks ill of Catholic teaching. It says, “sorry, but this accident of mine must be carried through unto the wasting of this food God has apparently given me as a practical joke or as a test. I’m sorry you nice people had to witness that but such is the life of a Catholic and hey, we are all martyrs, aren’t we? (tee hee)”

Also, it is offensive to those around you if they are not bound by the same rules you are. Remember the fasting is not for God’s benefit, but for ours. I don’t understand why we fast under weight of punishment not to, for that makes the fast obligatory and not free-will, and like stewardship, makes its value questionable.

Paul said that we are free from such things and when we are given something to eat at another person’s house of a different faith, we are to eat what is in front of us. That is, unless eating it would offend the sensibilities of THOSE WHO ARE AROUND US AT THE TIME.

To eat is nothing, and not to eat is nothing, but to use Catholicism as a reason to perform what is a sinful act in the minds of others leads them to sin, and does nothing for evangelization.

Anyone who doesn’t wish to take my word for it is welcome to argue with St. Paul about it:
1 Cor 10:
25 11 Eat anything sold in the market, without raising questions on grounds of conscience, 26 for “the earth and its fullness are the Lord’s.” 27 If an unbeliever invites you and you want to go, eat whatever is placed before you, without raising questions on grounds of conscience. 28 But if someone says to you, “This was offered in sacrifice,” do not eat it on account of the one who called attention to it and on account of conscience; 29 I mean not your own conscience, but the other’s. For why should my freedom be determined by someone else’s conscience? 30 If I partake thankfully, why am I reviled for that over which I give thanks? 31 So whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do everything for the glory of God. 32 12 Avoid giving offense, whether to Jews or Greeks or the church of God, 33 just as I try to please everyone in every way, not seeking my own benefit but that of the many, that they may be saved.
Notice that for St. Paul, PEOPLE PLEASING is an important goal, more important than eating according to one’s OWN CONSCIENCE.

In general, if you can’t avoid sinning, of course it isn’t a sin. That doesn’t mean the act isn’t “serious” or doesn’t constitute “grave matter” but it cannot be a sin – at least not a mortal one – under those conditions. In fact, to apologize for something I could not have helped is actually ARROGANT in that it conveys I had control over a situation where I was in fact helpless. If I had no control over it, then I cannot apologize – at least on my own behalf – and I certainly can’t repent. “Yes, father, today I found out that I am weaker than three men with knives and guns and therefore I am very sorry that I am not so Godly that when I invoked the name of Christ to tell them to stop, they didn’t march straight to the sheriff and self-report.” If I can’t control it, then I can’t. That said, many people actually CAN control things they say they can’t so I hope it’s obvious I’m not just giving a free pass for giving up easily.

Alan
 
Yes.

Mae West (a bombshell movie actress from the 1930’s) was very quotable and she once remarked that she tried to resist temptation unless it was irresistable.

She also remarked that if she was confronted with the choice of two evils, she would take the one she hadn’t tried before.

but seriously, the purpose of our Catholic faith is to create an interior life where we are prepared and disposed to avoid evil – flee from iniquity as the Bible says. Part of developing that interior life is to realize that we will be tempted.

There’s an old protestant hymn that goes
Code:
    Thy word is a lamp for my feet
    Thy word is a light for my path  (ps 119)
    That I may not sin
    That I may not sin
          That I may not sin against Thee
Many saints undertook very mortifying life styles to remove the temptations in the first place, and to develop resistance to temptation by prayer and undertaking other activities.
 
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AlanFromWichita:
Exactly. Also it makes a spectacle and speaks ill of Catholic teaching. It says, “sorry, but this accident of mine must be carried through unto the wasting of this food God has apparently given me as a practical joke or as a test. I’m sorry you nice people had to witness that but such is the life of a Catholic and hey, we are all martyrs, aren’t we? (tee hee)”
I agree with this, but I might take it a step further. I believe that, if you were only given the two choices to eat or throw it away, throwing it away would be disrespecting the dignity of the human person which I cannot in good conscious do.

But I also agree that there is never a situation in which you ONLY have two options. I am sure there would be some way to take this item home with you. If you believed that you would throw it away when you got home because microwave steak is quite foul, then trade meals with your friend or something like that. There is always a creative alternative if you really want it.
 
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AlanFromWichita:
Exactly. Also it makes a spectacle and speaks ill of Catholic teaching. It says, “sorry, but this accident of mine must be carried through unto the wasting of this food God has apparently given me as a practical joke or as a test. I’m sorry you nice people had to witness that but such is the life of a Catholic and hey, we are all martyrs, aren’t we? (tee hee)”

Also, it is offensive to those around you if they are not bound by the same rules you are. Remember the fasting is not for God’s benefit, but for ours. I don’t understand why we fast under weight of punishment not to, for that makes the fast obligatory and not free-will, and like stewardship, makes its value questionable.

Paul said that we are free from such things and when we are given something to eat at another person’s house of a different faith, we are to eat what is in front of us. That is, unless eating it would offend the sensibilities of THOSE WHO ARE AROUND US AT THE TIME.

To eat is nothing, and not to eat is nothing, but to use Catholicism as a reason to perform what is a sinful act in the minds of others leads them to sin, and does nothing for evangelization.

Anyone who doesn’t wish to take my word for it is welcome to argue with St. Paul about it:

Notice that for St. Paul, PEOPLE PLEASING is an important goal, more important than eating according to one’s OWN CONSCIENCE.

In general, if you can’t avoid sinning, of course it isn’t a sin. That doesn’t mean the act isn’t “serious” or doesn’t constitute “grave matter” but it cannot be a sin – at least not a mortal one – under those conditions. In fact, to apologize for something I could not have helped is actually ARROGANT in that it conveys I had control over a situation where I was in fact helpless. If I had no control over it, then I cannot apologize – at least on my own behalf – and I certainly can’t repent. “Yes, father, today I found out that I am weaker than three men with knives and guns and therefore I am very sorry that I am not so Godly that when I invoked the name of Christ to tell them to stop, they didn’t march straight to the sheriff and self-report.” If I can’t control it, then I can’t. That said, many people actually CAN control things they say they can’t so I hope it’s obvious I’m not just giving a free pass for giving up easily.

Alan
But the question wasn’t about being at someone’s home and being served meat. St. Paul is talking about going into someone’s home and not offending them, the greater sin would be to offend your host. The question was ordering meat. You can order what you like without offending anyone.

Once the order was placed for meat…you don’t have to make a big deal out of it, just order something else and take the meat home with you. You can tell your co-diners…“ooops…it slipped my mind that it is Friday and I abstain from meat. I’ll order something else and take this steak home!” End of discussion…unless someone wants to know more.

Why do you assume others would be offended? I’m not offended by someone practicing their faith. Perhaps the others would be intrigued…you cannot know how your actions will affect another. So, since we cannot know, we can only do our best to be faithful to God.

The whole purpose to abstain from meat is for pennance and sacrifice. It’s a small sacrifce and it is to deepen your relationship with Christ. It should not be used to make yourself look pious or like some spiritual giant! It would depend on your intention at dinner…are you making the switch to prove something to others or do you truly want to perform your sacrifice to God? If you’re intention is to call attention to yourself and being Catholic then…you’ve already ruined the sacrifice of abstinence on Friday.

If you are at someone’s home on a Friday and they serve you meat…it’s not a sin to eat it. Becasue the sin isn’t in eating meat the sin is in the failure to desire a sacrifice. If you truly desire to offer up a sacrifice to God and usually abstain from meat…eating meat, so as not to offend someone, can be a sacrifice!!
 
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jebojora:
But the question wasn’t about being at someone’s home and being served meat. St. Paul is talking about going into someone’s home and not offending them, the greater sin would be to offend your host. The question was ordering meat. You can order what you like without offending anyone.
OK, I’m with you so far…
Once the order was placed for meat…you don’t have to make a big deal out of it, just order something else and take the meat home with you. You can tell your co-diners…“ooops…it slipped my mind that it is Friday and I abstain from meat. I’ll order something else and take this steak home!” End of discussion…unless someone wants to know more.
I’m with you here, but if at all possible with even less discussion. If they already knew of my Catholicism and its ramifications, this is fine. If it is out-of-the-blue, though, like if you’re with your boss and a new client and you know nothing about the other people, I still think it’s better to just eat it and not make a scene.
Why do you assume others would be offended? I’m not offended by someone practicing their faith. Perhaps the others would be intrigued…you cannot know how your actions will affect another. So, since we cannot know, we can only do our best to be faithful to God.
They will not be offended if they are not brought into my personal issues. If I eat the meat and others are too, then I raise no eyebrows. If they are not offended, I am still making a display of my faith which some may think a Good Thing but I don’t, and as far as I read it, clearly St. Paul doesn’t either.

You are right that we do not know how our actions affect one another; that’s why I say we go with the advice of 1 Cor and do not test the others on this.
The whole purpose to abstain from meat is for pennance and sacrifice. It’s a small sacrifce and it is to deepen your relationship with Christ. It should not be used to make yourself look pious or like some spiritual giant! It would depend on your intention at dinner…are you making the switch to prove something to others or do you truly want to perform your sacrifice to God? If you’re intention is to call attention to yourself and being Catholic then…you’ve already ruined the sacrifice of abstinence on Friday.
I agree with your reasoning from a personal point of view. Now it is in faith that you are NOT bound to these devotions in the presence of others, as St. Paul has outlined.

Christ himself said when you are fasting, do not make it appear as such from the outside. IMO, telling the others in the room to go ahead and eat but I’m fasting just sets me a tad above them. It shows that I am doing spiritual exercises rather than being in full fellowship with them. Had they not known of the fast I could have gotten away with a different or lighter meal, or even a “I don’t believe I can eat all of this” message.
If you are at someone’s home on a Friday and they serve you meat…it’s not a sin to eat it. Becasue the sin isn’t in eating meat the sin is in the failure to desire a sacrifice. If you truly desire to offer up a sacrifice to God and usually abstain from meat…eating meat, so as not to offend someone, can be a sacrifice!!
I like the way you wrote that! 👍 It is not anything like what I have read before on this topic. This is how the very same action can be seen as evil or devout, depending on the motivation. Perhaps to justify my earlier comments, if the motivational part is unclear we can start from the known behavior we should exhibit (“eat what is put before you”) and then deconstruct “why” that is right as a separate exercise. We are often taught that our devotions are so sacred they should be held up for all to see, but this is exactly contrary to the Good News who said to do our prayer in private.

Alan
 
It appears that we agree.

Jesus left us with two commandments…paraphrased…love God first above all else and love your neighbor as yourself.

The first must be first…so to speak. You love your neighbor more than yourself but not more than God.

At dinner, it may depend on who you are with as to what you do. That makes sense to me. The practicing of one’s faith should not be seen as judgemental, as grandstanding or as hostile. But if you are truly humble and your devotion is to God, you will know if what you choose to do is right or wrong. You’ll know in your heart.
 
Do not eat meat on Friday…Once I didn’t believe in this.
How is having a fish feast a sacrifice? A package of 59
cent hot dogs would be more of a sacrifice.

One day I was at a cub scout banquet eating chicken
when a parent there told her children the reason they
couldn’t have the chicken was because today was Friday.
I was immediately taught my lesson. I was unable to
let her family know that I was Catholic. Had I followed
the practice naturally, it would have helped her teach
her children properly since they were complaining that
everyone else was eating chicken.

When you do follow this practice, it strengthens the
unity of Catholics. How would you feel if you ate your
steak while someone else ordered fish because it was
lent? If all the Catholics followed this, it wouldn’t be
so hard to remember.

I would say do not worry about what is done, but let
it be a lesson to you. From now on, don’t think about
being embarrassed of your faith showing. Think about
being disappointed for missed opportunities for sharing
and strengthening your faith with fellow believers.
 
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