If you could accept the pillars of Protestantism...

[christcnection1]

This is a hypothetical question especially for Catholics or Eastern Orthodox…

If you could intellectually accept the pillars of Protestantism (Sola Scriptura/Bible Alone and Sola Fide/Faith Alone) would you want to?

As a convert to the Catholic Church, and one who is fully in line with Church teaching, I cannot embrace these foundational tenets of Protestantism for a number of reasons.

However, if I could hypothetically accept these concepts because they made sense, I would do so with great joy. Both concepts appeal to me on a number of levels. Imputed Righteous (Faith alone) would give an incredible amount of assurance, and being able to interpret the Bible for myself without any objective source would be liberating in some ways.

Again, even though I would want to, I cannot accept these ideas because what’s burning in my heart must also make sense in my mind. This is largely why I’m a convert. Sometimes truth is hard to swallow, and diffucult to follow, but ultimately that’s where we’ll find the peace that passes all understanding.

How many of you feel similarly?

 

[puzzleannie]

since I have heard those pillars defined so many different ways (the 6 fundamentals, TULIP, etc) that would be pretty hard to do. If I ever find a consistent interpetation of the entire NT that teachs SF and SS I will look into it.

 

[Cat]

No. **NO! ** Never!

I will continue to warn other Protestants against these teachings, which I believe are straight from hell.

My family was nearly destroyed because of sola Scriptura.

In 2001, the EFree church that we had faithfully participated in for seven years threw our family out and used the BIBLE to justify their cruel behavior toward us.

My older daughter stopped going to any church after this incident. She had been very involved in leadership in her youth group and was even considering a missionary calling, but after we were thrown out, she said, “Mom, if they could throw YOU out, after all the things you’ve done for them, then how will they ever tolerate someone like me?”

For years she didn’t go to any church, but a year ago, began attending Mass at the Basilica in her city (a Polish parish). The pastor of that Basilica is a gifted teacher who uses his homilies to explain in detail the teachings of the Catholic Church. I’m sure other cradle Catholics sleep through his homilies, but my daughter was enthralled.

Praise God and thanks to Mary for her prayers, this daughter is planning to enter RCIA this fall, and called Saturday night to ask me to be her sponsor.

My younger daughter is still lost to church. She believes in Jesus, and I pray that Mary will plead for my daughter to Her Dear Son, that He will be gentle in His judgement because of the harsh treatment that she received at the hands of so-called Bible-believing Christians. We believe there is a possibility that she was sexually abused by someone in that church, but we have no proof other than circumstantial evidence. (I’m sure that whoever did this to her can use the Bible to “prove” that he or she was doing something “good.”)

No wonder she doesn’t trust “church.” It’s a miracle she still trusts God (kind of). I think she trusts her mom and dad more than she trusts God.

She and her fiance have spoken favorably of becoming Catholic someday, but at this time, they simply don’t take the time to practice any spiritual disciplines. Pray for her, Blessed Mother and dear St. Anthony of Padua, the Miracle Worker who seeks and finds what is lost.

For a year after our ousting, I wouldn’t read the Bible by myself. It had become a frightening book to me, a book of magic spells and talismans that could be twisted to mean whatever the reader wants it to mean. I was afraid that I would become evil like those who had thrown us out of the church.

I finally started reading the Bible again when I discovered that our Church had a 24 hour Adoration Chapel. I knew that Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament would never allow me to fall into error.

I had nightmares in which I and my family were pursued and executed by these church people. My hands shook so badly I couldn’t play the piano, and I cried constantly, even at work.

I didn’t trust any human being except my husband and two daughters. I still have a hard time with trust.

My husband and I trusted Jesus only, and He was faithful to lead us into the Catholic Church three years after the ousting.

So my answer is NO, NO, a thousand times NO, I will never be tricked by those false doctrines again, and I plead with others to come out from those who teach such things. Don’t wait for them to destroy you and your family!

 

[deb1]

I can only speak for my own experiences following these believes. In the church that I went to OSAS was entwined with faith alone and sola scriptura so when one fell they all fell.

I did not find OSAS comforting, far from it. The bible says that nothing imperfect enters heaven. I sure knew that I wasn’t perfect. So, I constantly doubted my salvation. But by believing in it, I had to discount so many bible verses that sola scriptura was not possible.

I was told that the Holy Spirit would guide me in understanding but appparently if I had a different view then my pastor then I wasn’t being guided by the Holy Spirit and wasn’t a True Christian.

It was all very troubling for me.

I should add in defense of Protestantism, that there are protestants who believe in faith alone but don’t adhere to OSAS.

 

[deb1]

since I have heard those pillars defined so many different ways (the 6 fundamentals, TULIP, etc) that would be pretty hard to do. If I ever find a consistent interpretation of the entire NT that teaches SF and SS I will look into it.

I’ve witnessed a lot of Protestants on this forum deny that there is any difference in their beliefs!

For some, this is because they believe that anyone who thinks differently is not a real Christian. So, they can ignore any Protestant who thinks differently.

But a fault lies in some Protestant Churches who encourage their members to fellowship heavily with other church members. Of course, on the surface this seem positive but in reality it limits ones exposure to other types of Protestants, so they honestly do not know that other Protestants-with as strong of faith as they have- believe in different things.

 

[christcnection1]

Perhaps some of you missed my point. I actually agree with all you. My point was if you could intellectually accept these pillars (which we can’t), clearly we could not accept the Church. That would be huge contradiction.

This is hypothetical. This is not reality. The point of this is to show that we are open to the evidence; however, we believe the “evidence” for those pillars stands on shaky ground. It has a faulty foundation, build on individual interpretation and false tradition. We believe these pillars are false.

Hypothetically if these pillars were true, I would personally find them comforting, coming from a naturalistic perspective. I believe this is why many are drawn to them. Unfortunately, I believe they ignore much of our “evidence,” or merely choose to reject it. That being said, our Separted Brethren have a lot of truth. They can and do experience the love of Christ, and share it with others.

However, the Catholic faith calls us to unparalleled sacrificial love and holiness. This is not always comforting. There is little room for compromise, or wishy-washy convictions. If I didn’t believe it was true, I would happily reject it for selfish reasons. Fortunately, grace and mercy leads me on, so that I might be all that I can in Christ.

This is my point, in case you did not get it the first round.

 

[deb1]

Perhaps some of you missed my point. I actually agree with all you. My point was if you could intellectually accept these pillars (which we can’t), clearly we could not accept the Church. That would be huge contradiction.

This is hypothetical. This is not reality. The point of this is to show that we are open to the evidence; however, we believe the “evidence” for those pillars stands on shaky ground. It has a faulty foundation, build on individual interpretation and false tradition. We believe these pillars are false.

Hypothetically if these pillars were true, I would personally find them comforting, coming from a naturalistic perspective. I believe this is why many are drawn to them. Unfortunately, I believe they ignore much of our “evidence,” or merely choose to reject it. That being said, our Separted Brethren have a lot of truth. They can and do experience the love of Christ, and share it with others.

However, the Catholic faith calls us to unparalleled sacrificial love and holiness. This is not always comforting. There is little room for compromise, or wishy-washy convictions. If I didn’t believe it was true, I would happily reject it for selfish reasons. Fortunately, grace and mercy leads me on, so that I might be all that I can in Christ.

This is my point, in case you did not get it the first round.

But I did believe that these pillars were true and did not find them comforting. So, I answered your question as best I could.

 

[christcnection1]

But I did believe that these pillars were true and did not find them comforting. So, I answered your question as best I could.

I appreciate it… fair enough

I partly agree with you. I found them comforting until I started seeing endless contradictions and what I believed to be falsehoods. This was not comforting at all. Gradually the merciful Lord led me home to His Holy Church.

Had I not experienced these things, I would have probably remained happy in the Protestant world.

 

[Cat]

They are “comforting” on the surface.

When you go forward in tears at a salvation altar call, your emotions are at such a fever pitch that you feel wonderful, free, completely one with the Lord. No more worries. You’re on your way to heaven.

For the first few weeks, you will receive a lot of love and attention from other believers and that’s really neat. You can “feel the love.”

But then as time goes by and you discover, as Deb1 did, that you aren’t sinless, you begin to doubt whether anything really happened. Then you discover that others are not sinless either. In fact, some of them are worse sinners than you ever knew outside the church.

You start questioning the Holy Spirit because you read a Bible verse and see one thing, while your “prayer partner” doesn’t see what you see.

Sometimes something dreadful will happen, as happened in our family. Perhaps there will be a case of sexual abuse (this happened in at least three Protestant churches that I was part of–not to me, but to others, and it led to dismissal of the guilty person).

And worst of all, you will discover that you don’t “feel” loved anymore. People ignore you–after all, you are “mature” now. And if you question anything about what the church teaches–well, you’d better not. You won’t like the results of your inquiries.

Eventually you start tiptoeing out on Sundays to visit other churches. You find a cooler church, and once again, the emotions are back and you feel Saved for Sure! You start attending and getting involved.

And then disillusionment sets in and you’re back to where you started.

Eventually many Protestants just stop visiting churches and stay home on Sundays to watch real estate shows. I can’t begin to tell you how many “fallen away” Protestants I know. Many “non-fallen away Protestants” say that these miscreants “were never really Christians to begin with.”

So no wonder these poor souls never return to church. It just didn’t work for them.

And they’re easy pickins for cults, new age movements, and other self-help organizations. No Church, No Authority except their old black Bible, which they don’t understand.

It’s NOT a comforting faith at all. I’m so grateful to be delivered from it! I am grateful for all I learned in the Protestant churches, and I consider those dear people to be my brothers and sisters in Christ and hope to see them in heaven. But I am glad to be free of it.

 

[christcnection1]

They are “comforting” on the surface.

When you go forward in tears at a salvation altar call, your emotions are at such a fever pitch that you feel wonderful, free, completely one with the Lord. No more worries. You’re on your way to heaven.

For the first few weeks, you will receive a lot of love and attention from other believers and that’s really neat. You can “feel the love.”

But then as time goes by and you discover, as Deb1 did, that you aren’t sinless, you begin to doubt whether anything really happened. Then you discover that others are not sinless either. In fact, some of them are worse sinners than you ever knew outside the church.

You start questioning the Holy Spirit because you read a Bible verse and see one thing, while your “prayer partner” doesn’t see what you see.

Sometimes something dreadful will happen, as happened in our family. Perhaps there will be a case of sexual abuse (this happened in at least three Protestant churches that I was part of–not to me, but to others, and it led to dismissal of the guilty person).

And worst of all, you will discover that you don’t “feel” loved anymore. People ignore you–after all, you are “mature” now. And if you question anything about what the church teaches–well, you’d better not. You won’t like the results of your inquiries.

Eventually you start tiptoeing out on Sundays to visit other churches. You find a cooler church, and once again, the emotions are back and you feel Saved for Sure! You start attending and getting involved.

And then disillusionment sets in and you’re back to where you started.

Eventually many Protestants just stop visiting churches and stay home on Sundays to watch real estate shows. I can’t begin to tell you how many “fallen away” Protestants I know. Many “non-fallen away Protestants” say that these miscreants “were never really Christians to begin with.”

So no wonder these poor souls never return to church. It just didn’t work for them.

And they’re easy pickins for cults, new age movements, and other self-help organizations. No Church, No Authority except their old black Bible, which they don’t understand.

It’s NOT a comforting faith at all. I’m so grateful to be delivered from it! I am grateful for all I learned in the Protestant churches, and I consider those dear people to be my brothers and sisters in Christ and hope to see them in heaven. But I am glad to be free of it.

…Comforting on the Surface… when you start digging… had many similar experiences as you. Agreed.

 

[Catholicdeacon]

If you could intellectually accept the pillars of Protestantism (Sola Scriptura/Bible Alone and Sola Fide/Faith Alone) would you want to?

Hello C!

Intellectually? I could not. The thing is, if you are to accept intellectually what scripture says, you would have to place scripture in its proper historical context, which is one thing Sola Scripturaelists do not do all the time. They pick and choose when to do this their rule of thumb is “If it conforms to protestant theology then it is OK to use this method”.
Faith Alone? again IMHO this dogma comes from an incomplete acceptance of all of scripture so intellectually I can not accept this either.

In His love

A Catholic Deacon

 

[JeannetteCML]

I always find myself wanting to refer to my friend Venerable Mother Mary of Agreda’s work for all of its insights… perhaps to a fault…

But she has written that after the Apostles were confirmed in the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, they became saints and did never sin again for the rest of their lives. Wouldn’t that be wonderful? So I guess that kind of righteousness is still possible. What a grace!

 

[paarsurrey]

since I have heard those pillars defined so many different ways (the 6 fundamentals, TULIP, etc) that would be pretty hard to do. If I ever find a consistent interpetation of the entire NT that teachs SF and SS I will look into it.

Hi
What are these pillars, 6 fundamentals, TULIP, etc of the Protestants?
Why don’t Catholics accept them?
Thanks

The problem here with some of my Catholic friends is that they don’t let God speak for himself. If they would have done it they would find a straight passage from the OTBible on every important issue, if Bible is a living book that answers every rational question. When they don’t get support from the Bible, they think they are wiser than God, so they try putting words into God’s mouth first for the Claim and then for the Reason which is usually not found there. One is left wondering if the Catholic God is living and All-Wise.

 

[deb1]

Hi
What are these pillars, 6 fundamentals, TULIP, etc of the Protestants?
Why don’t Catholics accept them?
Thanks

The problem here with some of my Catholic friends is that they don’t let God speak for himself. If they would have done it they would find a straight passage from the OTBible on every important issue, if Bible is a living book that answers every rational question. When they don’t get support from the Bible, they think they are wiser than God, so they try putting words into God’s mouth first for the Claim and then for the Reason which is usually not found there. One is left wondering if the Catholic God is living and All-Wise.

the bible is not the only way that God speaks to us.

I don’t think that the bible answers every rational question. It is certainly rational for me to ask what I will have for breakfast but the bible doesn’t answer that.

No Catholic doctrine goes against the bible.

 

[johannahw]

My experiences as a Protestant mirror a lot of Cat’s. I can’t begin to tell you how many churches I’ve checked into in my adult life. I’ve been “saved” countless times and baptised on multiple occassions as well. Within the last year and a half I’ve been involved with the Mormons and JWs. I think I’ve finally made a clean break from the Mormons but even that took weeks to accomplish. I’m currently finding my way back to the Catholic church (I converted in 1989 but didn’t stay long). Even with all the church’s warts, somewhere I believe there is absolute truth at her core. It’s difficult going back. No one really care who you are.
Johannah

 

[blacktiger057]

Cat. you sound really ignorant. And you wonder why Protestants hate Catholics? “These beliefs are from hell”. We are never going to get anywhere if we criticize other’s beliefs. People who say those types of things really make Cathloicism look like it’s full of angry and ignorant people, and that really put me off. Beliefs hardly matter when it comes to judging people. It’s how pure their intentions are.

 

[deb1]

Cat. you sound really ignorant. And you wonder why Protestants hate Catholics? “These beliefs are from hell”. We are never going to get anywhere if we criticize other’s beliefs. People who say those types of things really make Cathloicism look like it’s full of angry and ignorant people, and that really put me off. Beliefs hardly matter when it comes to judging people. It’s how pure their intentions are.

Could you please use the quote button? I can 't find the quote you mention in Cat’s post. Its difficult for anyone to judge if you’ve misread the post or if you are correct in your summary of Cat’s words if you don’t directly quote her.

 

[christcnection1]

.

Cat. you sound really ignorant. And you wonder why Protestants hate Catholics? “These beliefs are from hell”.

Most Protestants don’t hate Catholics. I would say there is more unity and love than ever. Perhaps you could consider these forums “in house” battles, but at the end of the day, we really love one another, and have the most important things in common.

I agree with you that I don’t think they are from hell necessarily. I do believe these are misguided beliefs. I suspect this is where we would diverge.

We are never going to get anywhere if we criticize other’s beliefs.

Constructive criticism is possible. Hopefully it can be done charitably. I’m afraid you might be criticizing her my friend. I’m not saying it’s unwarranted; I’m just saying it seems that way.

People who say those types of things really make Cathloicism look like it’s full of angry and ignorant people, and that really put me off.

Not so… There are far more people more like Mother Theresa in the Church than there are haters. It’s unfortunate you have this perception. Perceptions are dangerous, I’m afraid. Most Catholics here have a lot of love in their heart. They are hardly angry or ignorant. Perhaps this is merely a defensive posture. I’m not pointing the fingers at anyone, but I’m afraid that many converts have been really hurt by their experience in Protestantism.

Beliefs hardly matter when it comes to judging people. It’s how pure their intentions are.

Do you believe you are judging the purity of her intentions? I don’t know; I’m just asking.

God bless you my friend…

We can have a warm and reasonable dialogue.

 

[Curious]

Cat. you sound really ignorant.

And that statement shows your ignorance about Cat.

 

[AveCorMariae]

I’m currently finding my way back to the Catholic church (I converted in 1989 but didn’t stay long). Even with all the church’s warts, somewhere I believe there is absolute truth at her core. It’s difficult going back. No one really care who you are.
Johannah

Good for you :clapping: that you’re returning to where you’ll find the Truth! I’ll agree with you that some Catholic parishes don’t have the fellowship thing down like some of their Protestant brethren. However, as I mentioned in a post in a different thread, the purpose of the Mass is worship, not fellowship. What you may find is that if you get involved in some of the parish ministries, you’ll find the fellowship is there. And many parishes are desperate for volunteers. Sorry, a bit off topic but I had to throw my two cents in on that subject. I’ll pray for you as you make your way back!

In Her Heart,
Catherine