If you could accept the pillars of Protestantism...

[Keikiolu]

This is a hypothetical question especially for Catholics or Eastern Orthodox…

If you could intellectually accept the pillars of Protestantism (Sola Scriptura/Bible Alone and Sola Fide/Faith Alone) would you want to?

As a convert to the Catholic Church, and one who is fully in line with Church teaching, I cannot embrace these foundational tenets of Protestantism for a number of reasons.

However, if I could hypothetically accept these concepts because they made sense, I would do so with great joy. Both concepts appeal to me on a number of levels. Imputed Righteous (Faith alone) would give an incredible amount of assurance, and being able to interpret the Bible for myself without any objective source would be liberating in some ways.

Again, even though I would want to, I cannot accept these ideas because what’s burning in my heart must also make sense in my mind. This is largely why I’m a convert. Sometimes truth is hard to swallow, and diffucult to follow, but ultimately that’s where we’ll find the peace that passes all understanding.

How many of you feel similarly?

Hmmmm…

If I “could” believe in the sola’s, I’d still be faced with the problem of having “One Authority”, which I firmly believe is a necessity for the Church (singular),… therefore only MY (protestant) branch of Christianity (as I had “made” it to suit me and only those who believed exactly like me would be allowed to “join”) would still require some “ultimate authority”, which would probably be me as it is after all MY denomination.

So I’d be forced to create a denomination exactly like the Catholic Church, except with me as Pope, and with a wholey inadequate Magisterium, as I would BE the Magisterium as only I am actually capable of “authoritatively interpreting” things, even though others are just as “capable” of interpreting albeit only within their OWN denominations,… so, I’m stuck with a goofy little bad imitation of the Catholic Church as a result.

Therefore, even if I could justify the sola’s, I couldn’t justify the utter fractiousness of what I’d created.

So, no,… accepting the “validity” of the sola’s brings me to the point of rejecting the results of that “validity” doesn’t get me what I want (or even what makes sense) so I wouldn’t want to accept the sola’s if I could.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Cat]

blacktiger057,

I spent over 40 years in the evangelical Protestant churches. My husband and I were active members, involved in dozens of ministries (usually all at once). I wrote over 70 songs for children, two musicals, and a Children’s Church curriculum. From the time I was in 6th grade, hardly a week passed when I wasn’t playing the piano in church somewhere. I chaired many committees and outreaches. I especially loved children’s and teenage (middle school) ministries.

While I was growing up, Evelyn Christenson’s husband was the senior pastor at my church.

Gary Smalley was the associate pastor at my church.

Regular speakers at our church included people like Dr. Bill Bright, Erwin Lutzer, Stuart and Jill Briscoe, and Leighton Ford.

The current President of Campus Crusade For Christ was a member of my church and often came home to preach.

Pastor John Ortberg was in my youth group, in fact, in my graduating class.

You recognize all these names, don’t you?

So you can see that my background in evangelical Christianity is ROCK SOLID and about as orthodox, respectable evangelical as you can get.

As I grew up and moved to a different state, I attended evangelical churches where the pastors served as missionaries, sat on the Executive Committees of their denomination, published books, and travelled the world giving seminars and retreats.

Call me what you like, but ignorant…definitely not when it comes to evangelical Protestantism.

Beginning in the 1990s, my husband and I started asking a lot of questions about evangelical Protestantism. Perhaps because our kids were a little older and we actually had some time to catch our breath, we started noticing that evangelical theology has some very pronounced flaws.

We actually joined a Calvinist church for a while (Reformed Church in America), and our daughter graduated from Calvin College and has been taught TULIP by some of the world’s expert “gardeners.”

Then we went back to the evangelical church, specifically an Evangelical Free Church in America.

Shall I tell you the whole story of what happened to us there? Not here I won’t, sir.

I have written it all out in book form, and it is quite the novel in length. I haven’t even bothered to try to have it published. I don’t think any publisher would touch it. It’s like reading about a rape in graphic detail, only the rape is of the soul and spirit, not the body (although as I mentioned, I think it’s possible that our younger daughter experienced some sort of sex abuse in that E Free church).

So am I ignorant? No. I am wise through hard experience.

I consider myself very knowledgeable when it comes to “all things evangelical Protestant,” although as I said, the evangelical Protestant world is changing weekly, it seems, and it’s hard for me to keep up.

Although most of our Protestant friends “shun” us, we have kept a few evangelical Protestants among our acquaintances. Sir, I would never tell these dear Christians that they themselves are “of hell,” but I would definitely warn them that their beliefs are not in the Bible.

**Rest assured that after over 40 years, I know HOW to talk to evangelicals. ** I definitely wouldn’t tell them that their beliefs are “from hell itself.” **I would use the techniques that I was taught in the evangelical churches about “how to lead someone to Christ.” **

But in this thread, I am not talking to evangelical Protestants and trying to demonstrate the truth of the Catholic Church. We were asked in the OP about specific doctrines of Protestantism, and I gave my answer, which is not pretty or sweet. Perhaps my answer will cause a few evangelicals to sit up and take a closer look at their faith. In fact, because I KNOW evangelical Protestantism, I suspect that many, many evangelicals have a lot of the same questions my husband and I had, but they are afraid to look too hard for the answers because they know that they will end up leaving their very safe world.

I have shared my family’s experiences with a few evangelical friends. They are shocked and horrified and often in tears by the time I finish. Those who grew up with me and my husband, who have known us through the years as rock solid, hard-working, and loyal Christians are HORRIFIED at how we were treated. Many of them tell us, “I don’t blame you for leaving.”

 

[BrianH]

People should try not to generalize their own bad experiences Cat.

 

[blacktiger057]

No. **NO! ** Never!

I will continue to warn other Protestants against these teachings, which I believe are straight from hell.

There’s a direct quote for ya.

 

[blacktiger057]

O, Cat, I hope you didn’t take that personally or anything. I didn’t say you were ignorant, I hardly know you, but anyone sounds ignorant when they say my beliefs are right and yours are from hell. Where I live most people are totally different religions, and it pisses me off when they criticize each other by saying stuff like this without backing it up. And they can’t leave people’s beliefs alone! And ofcourse you’d see them as misguided because you don’t believe in it

Lots of light!

Scott

 

[mark_a]

If you could intellectually accept the pillars of Protestantism (Sola Scriptura/Bible Alone and Sola Fide/Faith Alone) would you want to?

Yes.

I would love to believe that my own interpretation scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit and that MY faith saved me.

I am a sucker for a sense of security.

 

[christcnection1]

Yes.

I would love to believe that my own interpretation scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit and that MY faith saved me.

I am a sucker for a sense of security.

Thank you for your honesty. Although the question, as worded, it somewhat deep, it’s really not. I think other people are looking at it too deeply. You gave a “gut” answer, and that’s what I’m looking for.

I would be nice to think you could rest assured that your interpretation of scripture is all that matters. It would also be nice to have a sense of security that relieved you from your duties.

However, we know this is false. And if we want to get to heaven, we need to strip our pride, embrace God’s authority, love Him, and follow Him.

It would be nice to buy into the feel-good nonsense, but we know we are just deceiving ourselves.

 

[Syele]

I’m sorry, I know I’m not the target of this thread but really… “the pillars of Protestantism?”

Which definitions of those terms do you mean? How can they be pillars of anything at all since protestants don’t all agree on them? This really makes no sense.

If you are using the definitions I think you are using, I AM protestant and don’t accept your so-called “Pillars of Protestantism.”

 

[exoflare]

I’m sorry, I know I’m not the target of this thread but really… “the pillars of Protestantism?”

Which definitions of those terms do you mean? How can they be pillars of anything at all since protestants don’t all agree on them? This really makes no sense.

If you are using the definitions I think you are using, I AM protestant and don’t accept your so-called “Pillars of Protestantism.”

I agree with you actually. The only thing I would guess they agree on is that they are definitely not Catholic. (actually, some Anglicans think they should be considered “Catholic” too so I don’t even know if this position would hold )

 

[Syele]

Hi
What are these pillars, 6 fundamentals, TULIP, etc of the Protestants?
Why don’t Catholics accept them?
Thanks
.

Not all protestants accept these things either.

TULIP is an acrostic for
%between%
Total depravity
Unconditional election
Limited atonement
Irresistible grace
Perseverance of the saints

They are talking about Calvinism and claiming all Protestants are Calvinist, as far as I can tell. If you wanna know what Protestants believe, don’t ask a Catholic. sigh

 

[Syele]

I agree with you actually. The only thing I would guess they agree on is that they are definitely not Catholic. (actually, some Anglicans think they should be considered “Catholic” too so I don’t even know if this position would hold )

there is lots more that we agree on than that.

But Calvinists and Arminians are opposites on many issues, making it seem like we agree on less.

 

[Syele]

If you are interested in what all Protestants agree on try looking up a non-(or inter-)denominational statement of faith. If you want, I’ll find a good one for you to read.

 

[exoflare]

there is lots more that we agree on than that.

But Calvinists and Arminians are opposites on many issues, making it seem like we agree on less.

In general, yes… but I doubt you could find something that 100% of Protestants would agree on. As I said anyway, they don’t all even agree that they should not be considered Catholic!

 

[exoflare]

If you are interested in what all Protestants agree on try looking up a non-(or inter-)denominational statement of faith. If you want, I’ll find a good one for you to read.

Go ahead, I would appreciate it. The thing I don’t understand is, how can such an interdenominational statement be drafted in the first place… I mean who would have the authority to write it?

 

[exoflare]

I’ve been thinking, maybe I should rephrase what I’m saying. Not even 100% all individual Catholics probably agree on any one thing either. What I’m referring to is nailing down what they are supposed to believe if they are true to their faith.

 

[Syele]

In general, yes… but I doubt you could find something that 100% of Protestants would agree on. As I said anyway, they don’t all even agree that they should not be considered Catholic!

How about some of these:

http://interdenominationalnews.net

• Jesus Christ is God’s one and only son, who died for our sins and arose from the dead. (1 Corinthians 15:1-8 & John 3:16)

•  the Bible is God's inspired word - a lamp unto our feet and a light unto     our path. (2 Timothy 3:16 & Psalm 119:105)

•  every person has worth as God's creation, but all have sinned and fall     short of God's glory. (Romans 3:23)

•  forgiveness of sins and the promise of eternal life are available to     those who trust Christ as Savior and Lord. (John 3:16)

•  those who accept Christ have repented of sin and confessed their faith in     Him. (Romans 10:9 & Acts 2:38)

•  the Church is the body of Christ on earth, empowered by the Holy Spirit     and exists to evangelize the lost and edify the saved. (Ephesians 4:1-16)

•  Jesus Christ will one day return to earth and reign forever as King of     kings and Lord of lords. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)

You can’t just say all Non-Catholics are Protestant. So it’s not even reasonable to say no they don’t all agree on the Trinity or something like that.

You are generalizing to try and make Protestants look less unified than we are. Isn’t there enough disunity in Protestantism without you having to invent more?? really, there are plenty of truthful things you could complain about.

 

[puzzleannie]

Hypothetically if these pillars were true, I would personally find them comforting, coming from a naturalistic perspective. I d.

speaking hypothetically then, if I were free to choose the “pillars” of my religion I would compare and contrast (remember the old HS English assignment?) and choose the belief that sounded most comforting, so let’s go

I can choose between a Jesus who is a good role model, a little eccentric with a goofy group of friends, who is still an all-around nice guy OR a Jesus who is the 2nd Person of the Blessed Trinity, the Son of God Incarnate, the Word made flesh dwelling among us, who became man, suffered died and was buried, rose again, ascended to heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father, will judge the living and the dead.

I can choose between Jesus who is present to me most intimately when I read about him in the bible OR a Jesus who is present most intimately within me, Body Blood Soul and Divinity when I receive the sacrament of the Eucharist.

I can believe that the sacred moments of life when I partake in the ritual actions of the Church which He founded through the sacraments that Jesus Christ is sacramentally present through those sacred words and actions, OR I can merely believe that they are touching customs and cute ideas which I am free to tweak according to personal prefrence OR I can believe that they are merely traditions of men and reject His promised presence through them.

I can believe that I have the power to forgive my own sins and absolve myself from all guilt and avoid all just punishment for my sins through a simple act of repeating a prayer in front of a bunch of people who have fellowshipped with me, OR I can believe implicitly in the Divine Mercy and recognize that only God forgives my sins, but that for my own spiritual health I must honestly recall my sins, confess them to the priest who represents Christ Himself, and humbly wait for absolution, and firmly resolve to sin no more, and return to that font of grace every time I sin again.

Hmmmmm. gee what is most comforting in the long run
a God I can only read about but never encounter, a God who promises wealth and prosperity for his followers in this world, or a God who seeks me, has come to me and offers union with Him as the goal and end of my life and eternity with him in the next world. Gee, hard choice. But if hypothetically I am making up my own religion I know which way I am going.

 

[SORROWS]

speaking hypothetically then, if I were free to choose the “pillars” of my religion I would compare and contrast (remember the old HS English assignment?) and choose the belief that sounded most comforting, so let’s go

I can choose between a Jesus who is a good role model, a little eccentric with a goofy group of friends, who is still an all-around nice guy OR a Jesus who is the 2nd Person of the Blessed Trinity, the Son of God Incarnate, the Word made flesh dwelling among us, who became man, suffered died and was buried, rose again, ascended to heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father, will judge the living and the dead.

I can choose between Jesus who is present to me most intimately when I read about him in the bible OR a Jesus who is present most intimately within me, Body Blood Soul and Divinity when I receive the sacrament of the Eucharist.

I can believe that the sacred moments of life when I partake in the ritual actions of the Church which He founded through the sacraments that Jesus Christ is sacramentally present through those sacred words and actions, OR I can merely believe that they are touching customs and cute ideas which I am free to tweak according to personal prefrence OR I can believe that they are merely traditions of men and reject His promised presence through them.

I can believe that I have the power to forgive my own sins and absolve myself from all guilt and avoid all just punishment for my sins through a simple act of repeating a prayer in front of a bunch of people who have fellowshipped with me, OR I can believe implicitly in the Divine Mercy and recognize that only God forgives my sins, but that for my own spiritual health I must honestly recall my sins, confess them to the priest who represents Christ Himself, and humbly wait for absolution, and firmly resolve to sin no more, and return to that font of grace every time I sin again.

Hmmmmm. gee what is most comforting in the long run
a God I can only read about but never encounter, a God who promises wealth and prosperity for his followers in this world, or a God who seeks me, has come to me and offers union with Him as the goal and end of my life and eternity with him in the next world. Gee, hard choice. But if hypothetically I am making up my own religion I know which way I am going.

Nice Post:thumbsup:

No. I could never accept the pillars of Protestantism. Never!

 

[deb1]

If you are interested in what all Protestants agree on try looking up a non-(or inter-)denominational statement of faith. If you want, I’ll find a good one for you to read.

The five pillars of Protestanism are sola fida, sola christo, sola scriptura, To God the Glory Alone(don’t remember the Latin name) Sola Gratia

That is what must of us are referring to and I am almost certain this is what you believe. I seem to remember you starting a thread about this.

 

[deb1]

How about some of these:

You can’t just say all Non-Catholics are Protestant. So it’s not even reasonable to say no they don’t all agree on the Trinity or something like that.

You are generalizing to try and make Protestants look less unified than we are. Isn’t there enough disunity in Protestantism without you having to invent more?? really, there are plenty of truthful things you could complain about.

No, you are incorrect. When you seperate out groups like the Jehovah Witnesses and the Mormons, you still have a wide variety of basic beliefs.

I think that a lot of Protestants are blind to this and therefore can falsly say that they are unified. You aren’t.