If you could reform the liturgy

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Crusader13

Crusader13

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Yesterday I was attending mass at my parish and if I’m not mistaken, the OF no longer has a distinction between High and Low mass. However, the mass I attend is referred to as High Mass. In which the prayers are all in Latin, Gregorian Chant is sung, the Priest faces Ad orientem, there are kneelers as well for those who wish to kneel; the other masses being celebrated revert back to English, no Gregorian chant, very little Latin, priest facing the people, and the kneelers are removed.

I started thinking, if the Church, in her wisdom wanted to reform the liturgy and somehow combine certain prayers and practices of the OF and the TLM; what would your ideal form of the Mass look like? What would be your top choices for what you’d like to see during Mass?
 
I don’t believe in a reform of the reform as some call it.
I enjoy both forms and think they are both beautiful when done reverently.
Pope Benedict XVl realized this and that is why both forms are totally recognized in the Church.
Trying to mix parts of them together I think would be a mess.
 
Crusader13 said:
I started thinking, if the Church, in her wisdom wanted to reform the liturgy and somehow combine certain prayers and practices of the OF and the TLM; what would your ideal form of the Mass look like? What would be your top choices for what you’d like to see during Mass?
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I would restore the “Extraordinary Form” as the normative form of the Roman Rite with the following changes:
  • Simplify the physical aspect of the rubrics, e.g., the number of times the chalice has to be censed, and so on.
  • Provide, for those who wish it, a translation of the EF into an elevated, literary version of the vernacular, and likewise with the responses — a vernacular dialogue Mass, so to speak.
  • Possibly eliminate the second Confiteor.
  • Remove the name of St Joseph from the canon. When asked about the possibility of this, Pope Leo XIII said he couldn’t do it — “I’m only the Pope!”.
And that would be about it.

The result would be very close to the traditional Anglican “High Church” liturgy.
 
I understand if you don’t want it changed it all. I didn’t mean it be a question of changing things based upon errors, but simply personal presences.

For example, the one change I’d love to see above all others, is a return to use of the High Altar. All these older Churches with these beautifully sacred High Altars that are no longer in use. I’d love for the option to have them in use again.
 
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I think the first, and perhaps most practical step, would be uniting the calendars. Bringing practices from the EF calendar back (like Septuagensima) and bringing in the new feast days from the OF (like St. Theresa of Calcutta). The calendar differences can be really annoying.
 
Crusader13 said:
I understand if you don’t want it changed it all. I didn’t mean it be a question of changing things based upon errors, but simply personal presences.
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I’m not suggesting that there was any error involved. The big sticking point for everyone seemed to be that they could not understand the Latin Mass. I do not necessarily seek to “understand” what is being said (though over the years I have come pretty much to “learn” the Latin by osmosis), but I know some do. All right, then, translate the Latin into a good, spiritually uplifting version of the vernacular. Problem solved.
 
HomeschoolDad said:
Remove the name of St Joseph from the canon. When asked about the possibility of this, Pope Leo XIII said he couldn’t do it — “I’m only the Pope!”.
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why remove the name of St. Joseph from the canon?
 
Fauken said:
I think the first, and perhaps most practical step, would be uniting the calendars. Bringing practices from the EF calendar back (like Septuagensima) and bringing in the new feast days from the OF (like St. Theresa of Calcutta). The calendar differences can be really annoying.
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Bring back St. Valentine’s Day!

When I was a kid in the early 1980s, people called Feb 14th, “St. Valentine’s Day.” Today, it’s amazing how many people have NO IDEA that Feb 14 was a Catholic feast day.
 
The second confiteor was already removed in the 1962 Missal.
Many EF masses still do it but more on just a traditional sense I think.
It’s kind of like the Leonine Prayers. They were never part of the Missal they were just prayers ordered by the Pope and 1964s Inter Oecumenici suppressed them along with the Judica Me and the Last Gospel. There has been some argument what saying the Prayers are for now actually seeing as they were originally for a resolution to the papal state question and after 1929 the consecration of Russia,but most EF masses do them after Low Mass because some would say since they were still prescribed to be said when the 62 missal came out that it is still in force.
Plus a lot of OF masses have brought back reciting the Saint Micheal Prayer after Mass.
 
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Based on decades of experience, I have come to believe that, whatever its merits, having the Mass in the vernacular (a particular vernacular, for there are so many!) is extremely divisive for many parishes. It segregates the parish into the English Mass, the Spanish Mass, the Vietnamese Mass, the Chinese Mass, etc, etc. It produces multiple non-overlapping worshipping communities within the boundaries of a single parish, all largely invisible to each other. This seems very much against the unity we should seek in a parish.
 
Yah. I actually in an unbiased way prefer the traditional calendar.
Many saints were removed in 1969 by Paul Vl. He said the calendar was to cluttered. Interestingly since then they’ve just been adding 20th century people who have been made saints which I honestly think leads to a cult of personality.
I’d say bringing back a lot of the things from the traditional calendar. I would like to see Sundays be referred to as “After” Epiphany ,Pentecost , Easter etc again. Even though “Ordinary Time” means ordered and not just like ordinary compared to the rest of the liturgical year as if it isn’t as important, a lot of people aren’t aware and probably view ordinary as meaning it isn’t as important. Also I’d like the Septuagisima Season brought back and also Passiontide. I’d like to see the Rogation Days and Ember Days brought back.
And the Pentecost Octave. I don’t really understand why they removed that Octave when for most of the Church history it was an Privaleged Octave of the highest order along with Easter. However before Pius Xll simplified the calendar in 1955 there were A LOT of octaves. They had to be put into groups on the grade of importance which back then meant literally reading the same readings every day all week unless a saint day occurred that was of an order high enough to be said. In the traditional mass there was no daily readings like we have now. You would always do the readings for the saint day and if there was none you were saying the mass readings from the previous Sunday or Solemnity. This is probably why there were so many saints on the calendar back then.
One thing I do appreciate about the reform was the introduction of a daily readings format. Of course now you can’t have the readings in the missal with a 2 year cycle with that and a 3 year cycle for Sundays and a lectionary is used but I think that was a good innovation.
I suppose what I’m saying is I wouldn’t mind the calendar used in the EF brought back. 😂
 
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On the more traditional side, move the sign of peace, and have the priest face liturgical east during the eucharistic prayers. On the less traditional side, reduce the emphasis on Latin, organ and chant.
 
HomeschoolDad said:
I’m not suggesting that there was any error involved.
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Sorry I didn’t mean it as direct response to you personally. It just happened to post after your comment. I meant it as response to anyone who may have thought my question was meant to invoke the issues of errors or perceived errors.

I was just curious what changes, if any, would someone want to make. Whether they were massive changes, such as completely starting fresh or something as simple as changing the liturgical colors of the calendar.
 
phil19034 said:
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Crusader13:
and the kneelers are removed
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wait, what?
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Yeah, they place the kneelers out during the High Mass, but for the ordinary Mass they remove them.

I’m not sure why.
 
1.All parts of mass chanted in English or language of the community. Simple chant …church needs sacred beauty not to look like an empty, protestant evangelical type structure. Get some icons in the church too.
2. Readings should be chanted…again simple chant like they do in eastern mass.
3. Receive exactly like the eastern church …precious blood and body of Christ. No more holding chalice or consecrated host in hand…sacred way they do it in eastern church.
4. Mass time longer
5. No more priests changing the liturgy but following the rubrics given
6. Sacred songs
7. Much more silence meaning before mass and after holy communion and other times too
8. Let the children move…stop holding them in a arm hold grip…move where ever the children go…then they won’t scream because you are putting them in a straight jacket
9. Stop feeding kids all kinds of food…too many toys, give them holy books or holy pictures
10. No cell phones for children and turn all phones off, off, off or silence…No vibrating cell phone sounds. .
If I think of more I will let you know…😃
 
Crusader13 said:
Yeah, they place the kneelers out during the High Mass, but for the ordinary Mass they remove them.

I’m not sure why.
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That’s weird. I’ve never heard of that being done before, and I’ve never seen that at any low TLM I’ve gone to.
 
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