If you do Not believe that Blessed Mary is the Mother of God, than who do you believe Jesus Christ is?

[ComeHome2Rome]

Are those of you go around claiming that Mary is NOT the Mother of God, really ready to come to the only honest conclusion which could possibly come from that: Mary is the Mother of Jesus, but Mary is NOT the Mother of God; therefore, Jesus could NOT be God.

If you believe that Jesus is God, than you Must agree with your entire heart & proclaim that Mary IS the Mother of God!

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

Are those of you go around claiming that Mary is NOT the Mother of God, really ready to come to the only honest conclusion which could possibly come from that: Mary is the Mother of Jesus, but Mary is NOT the Mother of God; therefore, Jesus could NOT be God.

If you believe that Jesus is God, than you Must agree with your entire heart & proclaim that Mary IS the Mother of God!

Mary is the Mother of God. Or at least I believe that. I have never heard someone say that Mary is not the Mother of God. The contention usually lies around whether we as Christians should “pray to” Mary, whether Mary was free from original sin, and whether she was a perpetual virgin.

Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk

 

[Esdra]

Are those of you go around claiming that Mary is NOT the Mother of God, really ready to come to the only honest conclusion which could possibly come from that: Mary is the Mother of Jesus, but Mary is NOT the Mother of God; therefore, Jesus could NOT be God.

If you believe that Jesus is God, than you Must agree with your entire heart & proclaim that Mary IS the Mother of God!

Hi

I’ve never heard someone saying that Mary is NOT the mother of God…

I for myself believe that Mary is the Mother of Jesus and therefore the mother of God since God and Jesus (and the Holy Spirit) are ONE Person. (Jn 10:30)

Are you probably referring to Muslims? They don’t believe that Jesus is God and therefore also do not believe that Mary is the mother of God. (The idea btw. comes from the Gnostics, an early Christian sect. Against which already the Apostles wrote:
1 Tim :4:1-5; 1 Tim 6:20+21; 2 Tim 2:18; Jude 1:7-18);

Well, among Christians I am sure you will find none that believes that Mary is NOT the mother of God.

Esdra

 

[Spirithound]

Are you probably referring to Muslims?

Well, among Christians I am sure you will find none that believes that Mary is NOT the mother of God.

No, he is referring to Christians. They’re unfortunately common. Stick around and watch…

 

[jlhargus]

Hi

I’ve never heard someone saying that Mary is NOT the mother of God…

I for myself believe that Mary is the Mother of Jesus and therefore the mother of God since God and Jesus (and the Holy Spirit) are ONE Person. (Jn 10:30)

JL: Actually Esdra Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not ONE Person. Along with the Father they are THREE Persons in the ONE BEING of God.

Are you probably referring to Muslims? They don’t believe that Jesus is God and therefore also do not believe that Mary is the mother of God. (The idea btw. comes from the Gnostics, an early Christian sect. Against which already the Apostles wrote:
1 Tim :4:1-5; 1 Tim 6:20+21; 2 Tim 2:18; Jude 1:7-18);
Well, among Christians I am sure you will find none that believes that Mary is NOT the mother of God.Esdra

JL: Again Esdra Baptist in the U.S. along with alot of other Protestants will not accept Mary as Mother of God, despite [Jn1:1 & 14, the Word was God the Word was MADE flesh. 1Jn4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.] I think it sounds to Catholic for them.

 

[Esdra]

JL: Actually Esdra Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not ONE Person. Along with the Father they are THREE Persons in the ONE BEING of God.

JL: Again Esdra Baptist in the U.S. along with alot of other Protestants will not accept Mary as Mother of God, despite [Jn1:1 & 14, the Word was God the Word was MADE flesh. 1Jn4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.] I think it sounds to Catholic for them.

What?
Baptists in the US don’t believe that Mary is the mother of God?

I mean, I’ve never heard of that. I am a Baptist myself ('though an European Baptist, which seems to be something completely different than Baptists in the US, according to CAF)

And what do they believe then?

I have always thought that Jesus and God (and the Holy Spirit) are ONE God in three persons. And when Jesus is the son of Mary, then she is at the same time the mother of God, isn’t she?
Sounds as if they don’t believe in the Trinity to me…

I hope some that don’t believe that Mary is the Mother of God will participate in here. I’m really intersted what they have to say.

Esdra

 

[Daegus]

Most of the arguments contrary to the title Theotokos are not very good ones. More often than not they involve very silly logical loopholes (fallacies) and don’t make sense to anyone capable of reasoning properly.

Jesus of Nazareth = Fully God and fully human

Mary = Mother of Jesus

Therefore:

Mary = Mother of God

It’s really quite simple. No one is saying that Mary gave birth to Jesus’ divine nature or that she’s “older” than God Himself (except heretics maybe). Mary gave birth to the person of Jesus Christ, whose divine and human nature are perfectly united in hypostatic union, making her the Mother of God. The heresy that Jesus has 2 separate yet loosely connected natures is called Nestorianism and has been condemned for a loooong time now. The heresy that Jesus has one nature which is divine-human (thus rejecting the duality of Christ) is called monophysitism has also been condemned for a long time as well, and for a good reason.

 

[Esdra]

Jesus of Nazareth = Fully God and fully human

Mary = Mother of Jesus

Therefore:

Mary = Mother of God

It’s really quite simple. No one is saying that Mary gave birth to Jesus’ divine nature or that she’s “older” than God Himself (except heretics maybe).

Yes that was clear to me.
I would’ve put it similar.
But what confuses me is that my american brothers and sisters* (I am a mixture between an Anabaptist and a Baptist. In Europe Baptists are different and not really like the the American ones… I guess. [with English].)* don’t believe that Mary is the mother of God. I simply can’t understand that.
What else do they believe then concerning Mary, God and Jesus?

The heresy that Jesus has one nature which is divine-human (thus rejecting the duality of Christ) is called monophysitism has also been condemned for a long time as well, and for a good reason.

I’ve always thought that some Oriental Orthodox are monophysites? The Coptic Orthodox Church, I believe I have read, are monophysites.

Esdra

 

[Azurestone]

Yes that was clear to me.
I would’ve put it similar.
But what confuses me is that my american brothers and sisters* (I am a mixture between an Anabaptist and a Baptist. In Europe Baptists* are different and not really like the the American ones… I guess. [with English].) don’t believe that Mary is the mother of God. I simply can’t understand that.
What else do they believe then concerning Mary, God and Jesus?

Some Baptists, but mostly Pentecostals, believe in a Oneness theology (Modalism/Saballianism), as opposed to Trinitarian. In their contradiction, they will often not accept Mary as the ‘Mother of God’ due to their almost Nestorian Christology. That is, Mary didn’t give birth to God, but to a human man who had God within him.

I’ve always thought that some Oriental Orthodox are monophysites? The Coptic Orthodox Church, I believe I have read, are monophysites.

Esdra

Oriental Orthodox are miaphysites. They were originally condemned as monophysites, but discussion has come to realize identical Christology, however with differing language and emphasis.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I will take a stab at answer this.

In my protestant days I did not believe that Mary was the Mother of God.

When I heard “Mother of God”, I heard it being said that Mary was the source of Christ’s Divinity. We all know that this is not true, Mary is not the source.

I now know how mistaken this view is. While Mary is not source of Christ’s Divinity, she still gave birth and is the source of His Humanity. Both natures are present so Mary is indeed the Mother of God.

The problem here, as with much ecumenical dialogue is that while we may use the same words and terms, they have different definitions for each group.

 

[Daegus]

Yes that was clear to me.
I would’ve put it similar.
But what confuses me is that my american brothers and sisters* (I am a mixture between an Anabaptist and a Baptist. In Europe Baptists* are different and not really like the the American ones… I guess. [with English].) don’t believe that Mary is the mother of God. I simply can’t understand that.
What else do they believe then concerning Mary, God and Jesus?

They don’t believe it because they don’t understand the logic behind it. They don’t take a second to think about why calling Mary the Mother of God makes perfect sense and isn’t contrary to Christian faith. There’s also the fact that, since we Catholics call Mary the Mother of God, many of them would be hesitant to pick up on that. If we Catholics are doing it, it must be evil.

I’ve always thought that some Oriental Orthodox are monophysites? The Coptic Orthodox Church, I believe I have read, are monophysites.

Esdra

I don’t know what certain Oriental Orthodox churches believe. All I know is that the Catholic Church has long condemned both Nestorianism and monophysitism (since the 5th century)

 

[Esdra]

Some Baptists, but mostly Pentecostals, believe in a Oneness theology (Modalism/Saballianism), as opposed to Trinitarian. In their contradiction, they will often not accept Mary as the ‘Mother of God’ due to their almost Nestorian Christology. That is, Mary didn’t give birth to God, but to a human man who had God within him.

Well, I did know that there are Oneness-Pentecostal Churches (especially in the US). - But I’ve always thought that this is the minority of the Pentecostals…
However, I’ve never heard of a “Oneness-Baptist Church”. - The Baptists I know are all trinitarian. (Same with the Pentecostals btw!)
In my eyes all “Oneness Churches” are more similar to Jehovah’s Wittnesses than to main stream Christianity.

Oriental Orthodox are miaphysites. They were originally condemned as monophysites, but discussion has come to realize identical Christology, however with differing language and emphasis.

 

[Esdra]

I will take a stab at answer this.

In my protestant days I did not believe that Mary was the Mother of God.

When I heard “Mother of God”, I heard it being said that Mary was the source of Christ’s Divinity. We all know that this is not true, Mary is not the source.

I now know how mistaken this view is. While Mary is not source of Christ’s Divinity, she still gave birth and is the source of His Humanity. Both natures are present so Mary is indeed the Mother of God.

The problem here, as with much ecumenical dialogue is that while we may use the same words and terms, they have different definitions for each group.

And in which denomination were you then in before coming home to the CC, if I may ask?
No, I guess we all know that Mary was not responsible for the divinity of Jesus, but God (through His Holy Ghost; Mt 1:20 “But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.”

Although (this is a bit off-topic know, sorry), I don’t understand how Jesus could be a descendent of David; since He is not Joseph’s son (but God’s) who would be a descendent of David…
At least the CC teaches that Mary was a virgin her entire life, doesn’t she?
Mary isn’t a descendent of Mary, is she? wondering

Esdra

 

[Azurestone]

Azurestone;7397658:

Some Baptists, but mostly Pentecostals, believe in a Oneness theology (Modalism/Saballianism), as opposed to Trinitarian. In their contradiction, they will often not accept Mary as the ‘Mother of God’ due to their almost Nestorian Christology. That is, Mary didn’t give birth to God, but to a human man who had God within him.

Well, I did know that there are Oneness-Pentecostal Churches (especially in the US). - But I’ve always thought that this is the minority of the Pentecostals…
However, I’ve never heard of a “Oneness-Baptist Church”. - The Baptists I know are all trinitarian. (Same with the Pentecostals btw!)
In my eyes all “Oneness Churches” are more similar to Jehovah’s Wittnesses than to main stream Christianity.

Not all Pentecostal or Baptist faiths hold the same beliefs, as you are probably well aware. However, due to the higher degree of decentralization and a lesser degree of dogmatics within Baptists and Pentecostals, they are more likely to have occurrences of this type of confusion.

At least the 'Oneness" confusion hasn’t attempted (to my knowledge) to deny the divinity of Jesus or re-write the Bible to conform to their spiritual beliefs.

 

[Esdra]

Not all Pentecostal or Baptist faiths hold the same beliefs, as you are probably well aware. However, due to the higher degree of decentralization and a lesser degree of dogmatics within Baptists and Pentecostals, they are more likely to have occurrences of this type of confusion.

At least the 'Oneness" confusion hasn’t attempted (to my knowledge) to deny the divinity of Jesus or re-write the Bible to conform to their spiritual beliefs.

You mean the Oneness Evangelical Churches are not that bad and sect-like as JW’s.

Yes, I am sure you are right!

Btw., the Trinitarian Baptists and Pentecostals see the Oneness Evangelical Churches not as Brothers and Sisters in Christ and also don’t have communion with them.
They are seen as sects by them.

Esdra

 

[jlhargus]

What? Baptists in the US don’t believe that Mary is the mother of God?

I mean, I’ve never heard of that. I am a Baptist myself ('though an European Baptist, which seems to be something completely different than Baptists in the US, according to CAF)

And what do they believe then?

JL: All of them I know of in the U.S… They will say Mary gave birth to the human nature of Christ not God. They seen to think Christ’s human nature can be separated from his divinity, which denies God became flesh. There are several different Baptist denominations in the U.S… I had a great aunt who was Free Will Baptist, they did not hold, as most Baptist, in once saved always saved. I was born in the state of Kentucky where most people in that area in those days were Baptist of some sort. I have lived in Ohio since I was five my parents did not attend a church although they believed. When I converted at twenty-seven I belonged to a non-denominational bible church, before converting to Catholic. I would say the majority of Protestants will not accept Mary as Mother of God.

 

[Esdra]

JL: All of them I know of in the U.S… They will say Mary gave birth to the human nature of Christ not God. They seem to think Christ’s human nature can be separated from his divinity, which denies God became flesh. There are several different Baptist denominations in the U.S… I had a great aunt who was Free Will Baptist, they did not hold, as most Baptist, in once saved always saved. I was born in the state of Kentucky where most people in that area in those days were Baptist of some sort. I have lived in Ohio since I was five my parents did not attend a church although they believed. When I converted at twenty-seven I belonged to a non-denominational bible church, before converting to Catholic. I would say the majority of Protestants will not accept Mary as Mother of God.

Thanks for explaining.

I think I can see now the point of the Protestants who deny that Mary is the mother of God.

So, actually, this doesn’t really have to do with Oneness Pentecostals or so…

They are thinking that Mary can’t be the mother of God because God is eternal and has always been. Therefore the seperation of Christ’s divine and human part.
So it’s all about words, like always…

But actually I still don’t understand why the said Protestants can’t believe that Jesus is God and that therefore Mary is the mother of God…
I mean, Jesus couldn’t state it clearer: "I and my Father are one. " (Jn 10:30)

Esdra

Esdra

 

[SyCarl]

I think it is largely a matter of words.

I have no problem with Mary being Theotokos as translated God-bearer. I think that Mother of God can raise confusion, especially among non-Christians. I believe that it is at least partially responsible for the Quran giving the Trinity as Father, Son and Mother.

Mother of God requires many qualifactions such as Mary did not produce Jesus’ divinity, she did not exist before Jesus and if God has a mother, who would His father be? Can you have a mother without a father?

I will quote from Augustine. (emphasis added)

He was in an extraordinary manner begotten of the Father without a mother, born of a mother without a father; without a mother He was God, without a father He was man; without a mother before all time, without a father in the end of times…9. Why, then, said the Son to the mother, “Woman, what have I to do with you? mine hour is not yet come?” Our Lord Jesus Christ was both God and man. According as He was God, He had not a mother; according as He was man, He had. She was the mother, then, of His flesh, of His humanity, of the weakness which for our sakes He took upon Him.

(Tractates on John, Number 8, Paragraphs 8-9)
newadvent.org/fathers/1701008.htm

But He rather admonishes us to understand that, in respect of His being God, there was no mother for Him, the part of whose personal majesty He was preparing to show forth in the turning of water into wine….Nor, again, should we be moved by the fact that, when the presence of His mother and His brethren was announced to Him, He replied, “Who is my mother, or who my brethren?” etc. But rather let it teach us, that when parents hinder our ministry wherein we minister the word of God to our brethren, they ought not to be recognized by us.

(A Treatise on Faith and the Creed, Chapter 4, Paragraph 9)
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf103.iv.iv.v.html

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

And in which denomination were you then in before coming home to the CC, if I may ask?
No, I guess we all know that Mary was not responsible for the divinity of Jesus, but God (through His Holy Ghost; Mt 1:20 “But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.”

Although (this is a bit off-topic know, sorry), I don’t understand how Jesus could be a descendent of David; since He is not Joseph’s son (but God’s) who would be a descendent of David…
At least the CC teaches that Mary was a virgin her entire life, doesn’t she?
Mary isn’t a descendent of Mary, is she? wondering

Esdra

I attended an Assemblies of God church but felt more drawn to the Church of the Nazarene at the time.

 

[phoenixrrt62]

Are those of you go around claiming that Mary is NOT the Mother of God, really ready to come to the only honest conclusion which could possibly come from that: Mary is the Mother of Jesus, but Mary is NOT the Mother of God; therefore, Jesus could NOT be God.

If you believe that Jesus is God, than you Must agree with your entire heart & proclaim that Mary IS the Mother of God!

I think that Jesus (if he existed) was a good man, to be sure, and made a difference to many people, but, I believe he is/was a man.
And his mother, Mary, was a woman.
Not a god or the mother of a god, a woman…