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CrossofChrist
Guest
If you don’t abstain from meat on Fridays outside of Lent, what do you do for a substitute penance?
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Richard_White
Guest
If you live in the United States, which I assume you do, then you can do anything on the Fridays outside of Lent that you want and which is especially potent for you.
For example, if you use a lot of technology, then give it up for a Friday (at least for personal/recreational purposes if you use your phone/computer for work).
Or if you don’t do enough along the way of volunteering, then give up your Friday night to work at a nursing home, soup kitchen, etc.
May God bless you and guide you along the right paths to holiness!
For example, if you use a lot of technology, then give it up for a Friday (at least for personal/recreational purposes if you use your phone/computer for work).
Or if you don’t do enough along the way of volunteering, then give up your Friday night to work at a nursing home, soup kitchen, etc.
May God bless you and guide you along the right paths to holiness!
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lucymeadhbh
Guest
You are right Nelka it isn’t but as far as I know the church asks us to make some small penance,whether it is abstaining from meat or something else.
Now that I think about it eating fish on a Friday isn’t even a penance for me as it is one of my favourite foods.
I better think of something else.
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Avila123
Guest
In the UK, then we are encouraged to keep all Fridays (except feast days) meat free. On the occasion when I have lapsed 
I usually make an additional donation to the mission box and offer some extra prayers for others. The discipline of trying to be meat free seems easier to follow than trying to make another offering (I probably would forget).
I usually make an additional donation to the mission box and offer some extra prayers for others. The discipline of trying to be meat free seems easier to follow than trying to make another offering (I probably would forget).
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
We go meatless on Fridays. On the occasions when we decide as a family to substitute something in place of that it is usually sports or activities related.
No football in my house would be a bigger penance than no meat.
No football in my house would be a bigger penance than no meat.
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jmcrae
Guest
Pray the Stations of the Cross, pray the Sorrowful Mysteries of the Rosary, go to Confession, or do some kind of charitable work - in my case, it might involve serving dinner at the homeless shelter, or driving someone who is currently unemployed to the grocery store, and paying for their groceries.
Normally I abstain from meat unless someone else is doing the cooking, in a situation where it would be rude to refuse the meat.
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tee_eff_em
Guest
Jimmy Akin makes a pretty convincing case that the US bishops have managed to remove the obligation to abstain from meat on non-Lenten Fridays, *without *imposing the obligation to do any other penance.
Fortunately for you (and for me too as a fellow fish aficionado), the Church only asks that we express our penitence by abstaining from eating flesh meat – She does not *require *us to consume something unpleasant.Now that I think about it eating fish on a Friday isn’t even a penance for me as it is one of my favourite foods.
I better think of something else.
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Vico
Guest
What Pope Paul VI wrote in 1966 elucidates the forms of penitence:
1 - (higher standard of living areas) witness of asceticism and charity
2 - (lower standard of living areas) promotion of social justice, and prayer.
In the first place, Holy Mother Church, although it has always observed in a special way abstinence from meat and fasting, nevertheless wants to indicate in the traditional triad of “prayer—fasting—charity” the fundamental means of complying with the divine precepts of penitence. These means were the same throughout the centuries, but in our time there are special reasons whereby, according to the demands of various localities, it is necessary to inculcate some special form of penitence in preference to others.(60)
- Therefore, where economic well-being is greater, so much more will the witness of asceticism have to be given in order that the sons of the Church may not be involved in the spirit of the “world,”(61) and at the same time the witness of charity will have to be given to the brethren who suffer poverty and hunger beyond any barrier of nation or continent.(62)
- On the other hand, in countries where the standard of living is lower, it will be more pleasing to God the Father and more useful to the members of the Body of Christ if Christians—while they seek in every way to promote better social justice—offer their suffering in prayer to the Lord in close union with the Cross of Christ.
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FrDavid96
Guest
Actually, it’s not at all convincing. It completely contradicts canon law and the actual statement that the US bishops made.
The obligation is to abstain from meat on Fridays. That applies to every Catholic everywhere.
In the U.S. a individual can choose to substitute some other form of penance in place of going meatless. The obligation to do some form of penance remains.
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tee_eff_em
Guest
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FrDavid96
Guest
Yes.
The bishops never said that they abrogated the Friday penance. They only said that they abrogated abstaining from meat as the sole means of observing the penance.
Just because we have now have more than one option does not mean that the entire penance becomes optional. It means exactly what it says: that an individual can substitute something else.
And yet, the author claims that the bishops said that the Friday penance is now optional. Nowhere in the documents does it say this. It simply does not exist.
The author starts by saying that we have to understand the difference between words of law and words of exhortation. Fair enough. Then at the end uses the exhortation to over-rule the words of law.
The other piece here is that nowhere does the Catholic Church say that the Friday penance is now optional (even if we limit ourselves to the US). If that were really true, would it be the case that the only place it’s articulated is on one person’s web blog? and others who reference that blog?
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tee_eff_em
Guest
To be fair, he also indicates the New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law avers the same position. Even Dr Ed Peters admits to *nagging questions about whether the episcopal conference ever *really got around to substituting “other forms of penance” for abstinence from meat.
I would not want to make it a numbers game in any case – I know too many poorly catechized Catholics who have no idea that the Church maintains Fridays throughout the year as penitential.
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FrDavid96
Guest
Again, there’s a difference between “substituting” something for going meatless and abrogating the law of penance altogether.
My reading of Dr P----'s comment is that he is more frustrated by the fact that the substituting part was left too vague; which is not the same thing as abrogating the penance. Dr. P. wants clarity, not ambiguity. That’s his hallmark.
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CrossofChrist
Guest
Any more thoughts?
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tee_eff_em
Guest
Only that I agree with FrDavid96’s estimation analysis of Dr Peters’s comment. I don’t believe Dr P has doubts about state of affairs*, but he does admit that that more than one position is possible, and I do not doubt he would prefer clarity**.Any more thoughts?
(* Not that I know what his position is)
(** As would I, believe me)
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ProVobis
Guest
Having been brought up in the UK, where Fish&Chips is (was) so popular, I could easily have fish every day. Salmon, Wall-eye, Trout, Whitefish, sardines, whatever. Fish oil is great for the heart, besides.Now that I think about it eating fish on a Friday isn’t even a penance for me as it is one of my favourite foods.
I better think of something else.
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Vico
Guest
It is clear that the traditional law is not the sole prescribed means of observance of Friday since 1966.
From USCCB: “we declare that the obligation both to fast and to abstain from meat, an obligation observed under a more strict formality by our fathers in the faith, still binds on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday”
“we preserved for our dioceses the tradition of abstinence from meat on each of the Fridays of Lent, confident that no Catholic Christian will lightly hold himself excused from this penitential practice.”
“Friday should be in each week something of what Lent is in the entire year. For this reason we urge all to prepare for that weekly Easter that comes with each Sunday by freely making of every Friday a day of self-denial and mortification in prayerful remembrance of the passion of Jesus Christ.”
" Among the works of voluntary self-denial and personal penance which we especially commend to our people for the future observance of Friday, even though we hereby terminate the traditional law of abstinence binding under pain of sin, as the sole prescribed means of observing Friday, we give first place to abstinence from flesh meat."
usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/liturgical-year/lent/us-bishops-pastoral-statement-on-penance-and-abstinence.cfm **Canon 1253 - Observance of Fast and Abstinence **
Code:
**Complementary Norm:** Norms II and IV of *Paenitemini* (February 17, 1966) are almost identical to the canons cited. The November 18, 1966 norms of the National Conference of Catholic Bishops on penitential observance for the Liturgical Year continue in force since they are law and are not contrary to the Code (canon 6).Promulgated: Memorandum to All Bishops, October 21, 1983
Amended: “… the age of fasting is from the completion of the twenty-first year to the beginning of the sixtieth” (Paenitemini, norm IV) is amended to read “‘… the age of fasting is from the completion of the eighteenth year to the beginning of the sixtieth’ in accord with canon 97.”
Promulgated: Memorandum to All Diocesan Bishops, February 29, 1984
(See On Penance and Abstinence, Pastoral Statement of the National Conference of Catholic Bishops, November 18, 1966)
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/canon-law/complementary-norms/canons-1252-and-1253-observance-of-fast-and-abstinence.cfm
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FrDavid96
Guest
I wonder what people would think:
There’s a local restaurant that has a sign that says “CASH ONLY.”
I go back one day, and notice that the sign is gone I ask the owner about it. He says “we decided to drop our cash only policy.”
I say “great, now that you’ve abrogated your policy of cash as the sole means of settling the bill, that means that I am no longer obligated to pay the check for my breakfast before I leave.”
Does that make sense to people?
There is the language of law and the language of exhortation.
The language of law says that abstaining from meat as the sole means of observing the Friday penance is terminated.
The Friday penance is not terminated or abrogated. The US bishops did not say that in 1966 and they did not say it in 1983 (see the text posted by Vico). They only eliminated the more strict requirement of abstaining from meat as the sole means of observing that still-obligatory Friday penance.
The language of exhortation suggests that Catholic keep meatless Fridays anyway, and still reminds us that Friday is a day of penance in remembrance of the Passion.
There’s a local restaurant that has a sign that says “CASH ONLY.”
I go back one day, and notice that the sign is gone I ask the owner about it. He says “we decided to drop our cash only policy.”
I say “great, now that you’ve abrogated your policy of cash as the sole means of settling the bill, that means that I am no longer obligated to pay the check for my breakfast before I leave.”
Does that make sense to people?
There is the language of law and the language of exhortation.
The language of law says that abstaining from meat as the sole means of observing the Friday penance is terminated.
The Friday penance is not terminated or abrogated. The US bishops did not say that in 1966 and they did not say it in 1983 (see the text posted by Vico). They only eliminated the more strict requirement of abstaining from meat as the sole means of observing that still-obligatory Friday penance.
The language of exhortation suggests that Catholic keep meatless Fridays anyway, and still reminds us that Friday is a day of penance in remembrance of the Passion.
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pnewton
Guest
My problem with substituting some other form of penance is the same problem I have when my confessional penance includes performing some charitable act. Charity is the life we live. Something is wrong if I do not walk each day performing some act of charity, as life presents opportunity, whether it is Friday, or after I received penitential instruction. I never wanted to mention this to my priest though. After all, it leaves me with a pretty easy penance!
This conflict is why I stopped eating meat throughout the year, at least most of the time.
This conflict is why I stopped eating meat throughout the year, at least most of the time.
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