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jmcrae
Guest
thank you.
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jmcrae
Guest
I imagine that if you followed through on such a thought, there would be two police officers waiting for you in the parking lot. HMMM, I wonder what those boys want … ?
And there is absolutely nothing to suggest that doing penance, in and of itself, is in any way optional. The whole tone of the piece assumes that people are doing penance on Fridays. It’s not aimed at people who are acting all surprised that penance is normative on Fridays.
As an aside, I always find it odd that the things Catholics are most famous for in the outside world seem to be the very things that catch Catholics themselves entirely by surprise - Friday penances, the requirement to go to Confession, being pro-life, doing natural family planning, being required to attend Mass on Sundays, and so on.
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tee_eff_em
Guest
No.
But you can see where patrons might get the idea that payment is optional if a sign were posted saying
[SIGN1]we urge all to -]prepare for that weekly Easter that comes with each Sunday/-][complete their restaurant experience] by freely -]making of every Friday a day of self-denial and mortification in prayerful remembrance of the passion of Jesus Christ/-][paying their bill][/SIGN1]
Does that make sense?
It doesn’t much matter. I don’t see much point in a continuing exchange a la Monty Python’s Argument Clinic:
There’s no ambiguity here.
Yes, there is.
No there isn’t.
Yes, there is
…
No there isn’t.
Yes, there is
…
tee
Who remains Not A Canon Lawyer
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jmcrae
Guest
Even at that, if I saw a sign like that in a restaurant, I would understand it as a polite reminder to pay the bill. “Freely” to me doesn’t signify an option to not do the thing, but rather, that I should do it cheerfully rather than as if at gun point.
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FrDavid96
Guest
There was no such sign. The actual statement from the bishops was clear enough.
The confusion comes from people who misrepresent what the bishops actually said.
What is completely unclear is the logic employed in saying that the Friday penance is optional.
First, the bishops said no such thing. If the penance were truly optional, would the bishops not have simply said that? Why does it take such a long and convoluted line of reasoning to convince people that something is optional if it truly is optional?
And let’s look at that line of reasoning. It goes like this:
- Understand the difference between the language of law and the language of exhortation.
- Ignore the actual language of law (such as “Friday itself remains a special day of penitential observance throughout the year” which is pretty clear).
- Concentrate on the language of exhortation to conclude that the exhortation to follow the law means that the law is abrogated.
If anyone can explain that logic to me, I would like to read it.
When I’m driving, I see billboards all the time urging people “don’t drink and drive” often with pictures of those in authority (like the governor, or state troopers).
Following the exact same line of reasoning employed to say that the penance is now optional, one would necessarily conclude that the driving sober is now merely an option. After all, the billboard has the governor saying “I urge you to drive sober.” Well then, driving sober is now an option because the governor “urges” us to do so. We have an exhortation from the governor. The exhortation supersedes the actual statute that says it is illegal to drive while drunk. The logic is the same.
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Catholic_farmer
Guest
I have a question. I abstain from meat on Fridays because I find that it’s easier for me to remember and causes me to reflect on Jesus’ sacrifice several times through the day. If I had an opportunity to do some sort of charity work, I would, but I don’t. At least, not on Fridays.
Our son is 6 years old. He knows that he is not obligated to abstain from meat on Fridays, but he frequently does anyway. If he doesn’t abstain from meat, should he do some other form of penance? On his own, he says extra prayers when he doesn’t abstain. It isn’t the rule that makes him do so. He wants to do what I do and wants to follow Church practices. I have never told him it’s a sin to not do penance on Fridays because he is so young and still a year away from preparing for First Communion. He does it out of the desire to follow the practices of the Church. He also says the rosary several times per week, of his own free will. I am very careful never to be pushy about anything, so his practices are really his own. If he isn’t obligated to do penance now, will he be obligated after First Communion, or not until he is confirmed? What is throwing me off is the age for abstaining from meat (14, right?). If a child under 14 is not obligated to abstain from meat, can they still be obligated to do penance on Fridays?
Our son is 6 years old. He knows that he is not obligated to abstain from meat on Fridays, but he frequently does anyway. If he doesn’t abstain from meat, should he do some other form of penance? On his own, he says extra prayers when he doesn’t abstain. It isn’t the rule that makes him do so. He wants to do what I do and wants to follow Church practices. I have never told him it’s a sin to not do penance on Fridays because he is so young and still a year away from preparing for First Communion. He does it out of the desire to follow the practices of the Church. He also says the rosary several times per week, of his own free will. I am very careful never to be pushy about anything, so his practices are really his own. If he isn’t obligated to do penance now, will he be obligated after First Communion, or not until he is confirmed? What is throwing me off is the age for abstaining from meat (14, right?). If a child under 14 is not obligated to abstain from meat, can they still be obligated to do penance on Fridays?
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Vico
Guest
USCCB: Ash Wednesday and Good Friday are obligatory days of fasting and abstinence for Catholics. In addition, Fridays during Lent are obligatory days of abstinence. For members of the Latin Catholic Church, the norms on fasting are obligatory from age 18 until age 59. When fasting, a person is permitted to eat one full meal. Two smaller meals may also be taken, but not to equal a full meal. The norms concerning abstinence from meat are binding upon members of the Latin Catholic Church from age 14 onwards.
Members of the Eastern Catholic Churches are to observe the particular law of their own sui iuris Church.
A Reflection on Lenten Fasting
If possible, the fast on Good Friday is continued until the Easter Vigil (on Holy Saturday night) as the “paschal fast” to honor the suffering and death of the Lord Jesus, and to prepare ourselves to share more fully and to celebrate more readily his Resurrection.
More information on fast and abstinence can be found below.
usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/liturgical-year/lent/catholic-information-on-lenten-fast-and-abstinence.cfm
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BostonMyrtleBea
Guest
Wow! I had no idea. I still abstain on Fridays, but I dislike all seafood, so it’s a bit harder for me than the rest of my family. They’re all thrilled for seafood, but I cringe. I don’t think it’s much of a penance to eat one of your favorite foods every Friday. I just look at it as bringing me more to focus on the meaning of it all.
If I don’t abstain for whatever reason (rare, but has happened), I try to do another meal without meat on a day that you can eat meat.
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jmcrae
Guest
The law itself applies to persons who have had their 14th birthday.
At the same time, I would continue to encourage your son to do his little penances on Fridays, so that when he reaches his fourteenth year, it will have become a habit.
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Catholic_farmer
Guest
Thank you!
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morbe77
Guest
Its been a while for me. Im comming back to church after 10+ years can you still eat fish on Friday during lent?
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FrDavid96
Guest
Yes. You can still eat fish on Friday during Lent.
You can also eat fish on a Tuesday during the summer, if you like.
There’s no rule against eating fish, so you’re all good!
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Bklynguy
Guest
I’ve been thinking of starting a habit of going to Mass every Friday.Any more thoughts?
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
That is very good. I always try to do that. But I don’t think of it as penitential.
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Razanir
Guest
I personally substitute with a Rosary. But one of the only times that happens is Leftover Turkey Friday.
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Vico
Guest
From the Apostolic Constitution Paenitemini of Pope Paul VI*:*
In the Old Testament the religious sense of penitence is revealed with even greater richness. Even though man generally has recourse to it in the aftermath of sin to placate the wrath of God,(11) or on the occasion of grave calamities,(12) or when special dangers are imminent,(13) or in any case to obtain benefits from the Lord,(14) we can nevertheless establish that external penitential practices are accompanied by an inner attitude of “conversion,” that is to say of condemnation of and detachment from sin and of striving toward God.(15) One goes without food or gives away his property (fasting is generally accompanied not only by prayer but also by alms (16)) even after sins have been forgiven and independently of a request for graces. One fasts or applies physical discipline to “chastise one’s own soul,”(17) to “humble oneself in the sight of his own God,”(18) to “turn one’s face toward Jehovah,”(19) to “dispose oneself to prayer,”(20) to “understand” more intimately the things which are divine,(21) or to prepare oneself for the encounter with God.(22)
In the Old Testament the religious sense of penitence is revealed with even greater richness. Even though man generally has recourse to it in the aftermath of sin to placate the wrath of God,(11) or on the occasion of grave calamities,(12) or when special dangers are imminent,(13) or in any case to obtain benefits from the Lord,(14) we can nevertheless establish that external penitential practices are accompanied by an inner attitude of “conversion,” that is to say of condemnation of and detachment from sin and of striving toward God.(15) One goes without food or gives away his property (fasting is generally accompanied not only by prayer but also by alms (16)) even after sins have been forgiven and independently of a request for graces. One fasts or applies physical discipline to “chastise one’s own soul,”(17) to “humble oneself in the sight of his own God,”(18) to “turn one’s face toward Jehovah,”(19) to “dispose oneself to prayer,”(20) to “understand” more intimately the things which are divine,(21) or to prepare oneself for the encounter with God.(22)
- Cf. 1 Sam. 7:6; 1 Kings 21:20-21, 27; Jer. 3:3, 7, 9; John 1:2; 3:4-5.
- Cf. 1 Sam. 31:13; 2 Sam. 1:12; 3:35; Baruch 1:2, 5; Judith 20:25-26.
- Cf. Judith 4:8, 12; 8:10-16; Esther 3:15; 4:1, 16; Psalms 34:13; 2 Chron. 20:3.
- Cf. 1 Sam. 14:24; 2 Sam. 12:16, 22; Esd. 8:21.
- In reference cited above, need for interior penitence is clearly illustrated: Cf. 1 Sam. 7:3; Jer. 36:6-7; Baruch 1:17-18; Judith 8:16- 17; John 3:8; Zach. 8:9, 21.
- Cf. Is. 58:6-7; Tob. 12:8-9.
- Cf. Levit. 16:31.
- Cf. Dan. 10:12; Esd. 8:21.
- Cf. Dan. 9:3.
- Cf. ibid.
- Cf. Dan. 10:12.
- Cf. Exodus 34:28.
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