If you don't believe in approved apparition(s) are you denying the Church?

[BarbaraTherese]

Hi there NotWorthy…You could always start your own thread on the incorruptible bodies of saints. St. Padre Pio has been exhumed after 40 years and his body is remarkably incorrupt -I saw a close up of it the other night on TV. Apparently Pope John XXIII’s body is to be exhumed in June this year.
I do think, though, that St. Bernadette is one of the most remarkable incorrupt bodies of saints we have and a shame to bury your beautiful and very clear pictures (some are blurry on some sites) of her body in a thread not connected with the subject where others may just miss the opporunity to view the pictures.
There are numerous websites with photos of our incorrupt saints and I have some of them on file. This site is a good one:
members.aol.com/ccmail/incorruptbodies.html

Blessings and regards…Barb

 

[Joysong]

I don’t think that post was appropriate for this thread at all and I don’t believe the thread should be forced to stay active this way (by going off topic totally).

Can we all pray for a lock before it goes further astray?

The ‘shouting’ in Notworthy’s post, and the little dig about Eilish being active in another thread, were very obviously displaying an emotional response. The sheer width of the post throws the entire page into orbit and makes it very difficult to read.

I agree that it was inappropriate, and off topic. I have seen moderators close threads when the subject has been sufficiently answered with regard to the original post. I believe we have exhausted the matter thoroughly.

 

[Bovillus]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=217966&highlight=incorrupt

The Apologetics thread has a thread on Corruption.

Where some topics are common, the search mechanism is helpful.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=217966&highlight=incorrupt

The Apologetics thread has a thread on Corruption.

Where some topics are common, the search mechanism is helpful.

Thank you…will duck over and have look!

Blessings and regards - Barb.
PS - One can always ask a moderator via PM or a complaint about a post to lock a thread, I think, if one feels it should be locked.

 

[NotWorthy]

I don’t think that post was appropriate for this thread at all and I don’t believe the thread should be forced to stay active this way (by going off topic totally).

Can we all pray for a lock before it goes further astray?

Once again, Eilish, you show just how difficult it is to “work with you” on a thread. My post wasn’t appropriate?!?

St. Bernadette was mentioned numerous times on this thread.

For example:

On a slight tangent, help me figure this out:

The church says we are not required to believe in approved apparitions, such as Lourdes and Divine Mercy.

We are required to believe that some of the visionaries, such as St. Bernadette and St. Faustina, are indeed Saints. (Is this correct? I’ve heard this many times in discussions, but when I do a search of the CCC for “sainthood” or “beatification”, nothing comes up.)

What is a person, who does not believe in an apparition, to think about the saint: they were delusional, but well meaning? They were misled or mistaken? It would seem they could not be believed to be liars, because that would be in contradiction with their sainthood.

Any thoughts?

So, I thought my post was perfectly in accordance with the thread.

So Eilish, I ask because this is only the 2nd thread that I’ve shared with you, are you really that difficult to converse with all the time?!?

 

[NotWorthy]

The ‘shouting’ in Notworthy’s post, and the little dig about Eilish being active in another thread, were very obviously displaying an emotional response. The sheer width of the post throws the entire page into orbit and makes it very difficult to read.

I agree that it was inappropriate, and off topic. I have seen moderators close threads when the subject has been sufficiently answered with regard to the original post. I believe we have exhausted the matter thoroughly.

There was no shouting in my post. It was simply cutting and pasting the words from an E-mail.

And there was no emotion other than, “Hey, how ironic! I was just on a thread discussing St. Bernadette and here I get this e-mail discussing her. I ought to share this with others on the thread”! Is it really that easy to totally misread what people are trying to say on these Forums?!?

If it came across that way, then it is my apologies. I was more concerned with figuring out how to attach pictures to a post than I was checking on the font size.

So, again, my apologies on the size of the font.

Of course, the comment on Eilish being active on another thread, that was simply picking. Is that allowed?

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Once again, Eilish, you show just how difficult it is to “work with you” on a thread. My post wasn’t appropriate?!?

St. Bernadette was mentioned numerous times on this thread.

So, I thought my post was perfectly in accordance with the thread.

The thread has been discussing if one does not believe in apparitions and not saints being dug up and found they did not decay over time. There had been no previous discussion of saints being dug up to inspect their level of decay so no, it was not in accordance with the thread.

 

[Joysong]

Notworthy:

What is a person, who does not believe in an apparition, to think about the saint: they were delusional, but well meaning? They were misled or mistaken? It would seem they could not be believed to be liars, because that would be in contradiction with their sainthood.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3614569&postcount=97

 

[NotWorthy]

The thread has been discussing if one does not believe in apparitions and not saints being dug up and found they did not decay over time. There had been no previous discussion of saints being dug up to inspect their level of decay so no, it was not in accordance with the thread.

The thread mentioned St. Bernadette repeatedly. I got an e-mail bringing up (what I thought was) a rather neat fact about St. Bernadette.

I thought this would be a cool things to share with my brothers and sisters.

I’m terribly sorry it upset you guys! Sheesh!

 

[NotWorthy]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3614569&postcount=97

Que?

 

[kentuckyliz]

Since you can only put “human faith” and not theological Catholic faith in private revelations, really, it’s just a matter of one’s own opinion. Human faith = opinion. And you know what opinions are like…everybody’s got one.

To accuse those who don’t chase apparitions of denying Jesus or not being able to access graces…that’s just wildly uncharitable.

Perhaps refusing to chase apparitions is clinging ever closer to Jesus. The more I love Jesus, the less I need spectacular apparitions to nourish my faith. Jesus is very lovable and fascinating…far more so than any apparition. Read the Gospels.

Saying that special graces are only available to apparition chasers is to bind and limit God. That’s just laughable. Is God not infinite in power? Does He not distribute graces to whom He wills?

I found my experience with cancer last year to be an immense source of overflowing special graces, more than any apparition chasing could ever do. I don’t wish cancer on anybody, but I will say, may you embrace your sufferings and ask for and receive the many rich special graces that they can provide for you.

It just bugs me when I see apparition chasers put their “faith” in apparitions on the same or higher level than their actual Catholic faith…and when they try to bind others’ consciences or denigrate their Catholicity or even go scaremongering. TG most Catholics I know aren’t apparition chasers. But one lady at our parish was discussing the end of the world in 2010 at our table at the agape feast last Sunday…and a retarded girl was sitting with us…I found that to be terribly imprudent. This lady normally has pretty good judgment but sometimes she just goes too hog wild on the whole apparitions thing.

 

[NotWorthy]

So Eilish, I ask because this is only the 2nd thread that I’ve shared with you…

I hope this doesn’t de-rail the thread, but I would like to offer Eilish, my sincerest apologies. We all have differing opinions and I should be more respectful of all of you and your opinions!

Forgive me, please!

John

 

[Eilish_Maura]

I hope this doesn’t de-rail the thread, but I would like to offer Eilish, my sincerest apologies. We all have differing opinions and I should be more respectful of all of you and your opinions!

Forgive me, please!

John

TYVM

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Quoting KentuckyLiz:

Since you can only put “human faith” and not theological Catholic faith in private revelations, really, it’s just a matter of one’s own opinion. Human faith = opinion. And you know what opinions are like…everybody’s got one.

Agree

To accuse those who don’t chase apparitions of denying Jesus or not being able to access graces…that’s just wildly uncharitable.

Agree

Perhaps refusing to chase apparitions is clinging ever closer to Jesus. The more I love Jesus, the less I need spectacular apparitions to nourish my faith. Jesus is very lovable and fascinating…far more so than any apparition. Read the Gospels.

A sharing of your own personal experience.

Saying that special graces are only available to apparition chasers is to bind and limit God. That’s just laughable. Is God not infinite in power? Does He not distribute graces to whom He wills?

Agree

I found my experience with cancer last year to be an immense source of overflowing special graces, more than any apparition chasing could ever do. I don’t wish cancer on anybody, but I will say, may you embrace your sufferings and ask for and receive the many rich special graces that they can provide for you.

A sharing of your own personal experience …and thank you for the blessing, KL!

It just bugs me when I see apparition chasers put their “faith” in apparitions on the same or higher level than their actual Catholic faith…and when they try to bind others’ consciences or denigrate their Catholicity or even go scaremongering. TG most Catholics I know aren’t apparition chasers. But one lady at our parish was discussing the end of the world in 2010 at our table at the agape feast last Sunday…and a retarded girl was sitting with us…I found that to be terribly imprudent. This lady normally has pretty good judgment but sometimes she just goes too hog wild on the whole apparitions thing.

“Apparition chasers” is probably a derogatory term for those who may need support for their faith and/or are poorly educated in the Faith. Also not all who believe in an approved apparition or apparitions are of necessity apparition-chasing.

General comment not referring to your post,KL: While it is a rule of CAF that a thread should not veer off topic, it is also a rule that we post with charity and mutual respect and self esteem.
Also, some slight veering off topic (and this is all I think that has happened in this thread because St. Bernadette is a factor in an approved apparation and mentioned a few times in this thread) should not be condemned (to my mind), as The Holy Spirit will lead where He will and to my mind personally should be given some room in a thread to lead where He will.
If someone should want this particular thread (or any thread) locked, then the opportunity exists to ask the Forum moderator (Klara Collins) to lock it and Klara’s decision would be final whatever it might be. If it is locked, then to my mind, it is locked and if not, then not…“all authority comes from God” St. Paul.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Joysong quoting Notworthy:
here

Originally Posted by Notworthy

What is a person, who does not believe in an apparition, to think about the saint: they were delusional, but well meaning? They were misled or mistaken? It would seem they could not be believed to be liars, because that would be in contradiction with their sainthood.

**Joysong **
here

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost…9&postcount=97

**Notworthy **
here

Que?

Hi again NW…this may help from a previous post of mine:

…

here
{quote}…" a person could be canonized on the basis of heroic virtue whereas any claimed apparition is not highlighted due to the fact that it could have proceeded from the imagination/deceptions of Satan and the person themselves were neither lying nor of unsound mind. St. Teresa of Avila advised her nuns not to seek visions etc. as they were quite open to the deceptions of the devil (my addition today: or the imagination), which does not at all call either the heroic virtue nor the integrity of the person into question and a person is quite free to hold to this…and not necessarily imply that The Church is perpetrating a hoax (my addition today: or that a canonized saint is a liar or of unsound mind), merely I guess implying the Church is mistaken and one is quite free to hold to this too. I simply would not call into question the integrity of another I would hope under certain circumstances.
And the core and central issue remains that there is no necessity to believe in Faith that what The Church states as “worthy of belief” must therefore be believed in…not an assumption of mine but a teaching of The Church. Nor is such a non believer thereby of necessity calling into question either the integrity of the saint or The Church…" {end quote}

While I think personally it is probably unlikely that a canonized saint would have been subject at some point in their lives to deceptions by Satan and/or deceived by his/her imagination without realizing this at some point after, it is not impossible. Some of our saints have claimed to have had visions and while it remains integral to their life story, The Church does not highlight their claim in any way.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

It occured to me well after posting the above and pondering on a bus, that if one should happen to not believe in an apparition, one is not necessarily implying anything - nor is one in any way obliged to state why they do not believe. The Church states that we do not have to believe in approved apparitions and one has thus an option to believe or not. Nor is there any obligation, as The Church teaches, to believe in the writings of saints nor attendant approved, or unapproved apparitions, visions, locutions etc.

One is on no way denying The Church and is a faithful Catholic if one does not believe in any of the above, nor would such a non believer be casting any sort of aspersion on either saint or The Church nor calling integrity into question re both. Unless of course they made actual statements that were an aspersion calling inegrity of The Church or the saint into question.

Blessings and regards…Barb

 

[Joysong]

For any who are still having a difficult time with this entire topic, I highly and strongly recommend obtaining the book, A Still Small Voice, by Fr. Benedict Groeschel. He describes in detail the genuineness of many supernatural apprehensions that saints received … saints who were very sincere, loyal, and living a high degree of virtue. Yet in many cases, they were innocently mistaken. That does not make them deceptive in any way, just mistaken.

For example, on page 59, Father recounts the apparition of St. Catherine of Siena, who was in the middle of a theological dispute in her day between the Dominicans and Franciscans. She asserted that the Blessed Virgin told her that the Immaculate Conception was not true, and that Our Lady was thereby taking the side of the Dominicans.

Yet Catherine is not only a saint, but a Doctor of the Church! Does that make her a ‘liar?’ No, simply mistaken in one of her visions. This is why the Church does not require belief in many of the reported messages that holy servants of God are apt to receive, especially since these are not part of PUBLIC revelation.

I hope this helps some of you who are struggling.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Thanks, Carole…putting your post onto my “Books to get” list.
While not struggling over what The Church does teach personally, it would be helpful to have an actual book around that quotes where our saints have been quite innocently mistaken about something they had thought and claimed to be from Heaven in the extra-ordinary supernatural phenomena sphere.

Blessings and regards…Barb

 

[Joysong]

Good idea, Barb! Another thought occurred to me, that although St. Catherine received this erroneous message and communicated it during the 12th or 13th century, Our Blessed Mother did not correct the error for several centuries in 18?? when she appeared to St. Bernadette at Lourdes. She could have corrected St. Catherine, at that time, but did not do so. It does make you wonder, huh?

Anyway, the Church has now infallibly proclaimed the truth that was believed by many theologicans in previous centuries, that indeed the Blessed Mother was conceived immaculately. That doesn’t make Bernadette more credible or more saintly than Catherine, for both of them are saints in glory.

 

[NotWorthy]

Joysong quoting Notworthy:
here

My problem with Joysong quoting me was that she didn’t quote me, NOBODY said it.

On a slight tangent, help me figure this out:

The church says we are not required to believe in approved apparitions, such as Lourdes and Divine Mercy.

We are required to believe that some of the visionaries, such as St. Bernadette and St. Faustina, are indeed Saints. (Is this correct? I’ve heard this many times in discussions, but when I do a search of the CCC for “sainthood” or “beatification”, nothing comes up.)

What is a person, who does not believe in an apparition, to think about the saint: they were delusional, but well meaning? They were misled or mistaken? It would seem they could not be believed to be liars, because that would be in contradiction with their sainthood.

Any thoughts?

To which I answered:

One is to believe that the saint is a saint because of the life that they lived, not because of any apparitions that they may or may not have seen.

None of Mary’s visitations saved anybody. It was only their conversion that saved them.

Thank goodness salvation has nothing to do with mental stability or I"d have no hope left in the next world!

Now, in the last day or so, Joysong has inadvertently quoted me and wrongfully accused me of shouting.

I’m not getting much Joy from Joysong. That is why I asked Joysong “Que?”