If you don't believe in approved apparition(s) are you denying the Church?

[Joysong]

Thank you NotWorthy for the correction. I see now that I did apply the quote to the wrong person, but since it was repeated in your post, I did make a mistake. This is a good example of innocently repeating something that one believes is true, but may be mistaken as to content. We can apply it to the matter of private revelations, and indeed, Father Groeschel makes several allusions to that in his book.

But as for the ‘shouting’ … yes, any time a person uses extremely large capital letters in a post, it is called ‘shouting.’ You were innocently using them, according to your explanation, but we had no way of knowing that by simply examining the evidence of your post.

The other problem is that I do not understand foreign language, and had no idea what the word “que” means. If you want someone to respond, kindly use english unless you are certain they will understand your lingo.

I can’t help but wonder why you waited so long to notice the mistake, other than perhaps somebody else pointed it out to you, like your silent emailer, perhaps?

No harm done, we have both made errors, and I thank God for providing this example of how some things can be distorted and misinterpreted, though the persons are not intending it, and are most sincere in what they report.

I could furnish many citations that were misintrepreted from holy ones in scripture, related by St. John of the Cross who warned against putting 100% credence in the words spoken in a apparition. Many times the spiritual meaning is other than what one hears from God.

But this thread is long enough.

 

[NotWorthy]

Thank you NotWorthy for the correction. I see now that I did apply the quote to the wrong person, but since it was repeated in your post, I did make a mistake. This is a good example of innocently repeating something that one believes is true, but may be mistaken as to content. We can apply it to the matter of private revelations, and indeed, Father Groeschel makes several allusions to that in his book.

But as for the ‘shouting’ … yes, any time a person uses extremely large capital letters in a post, it is called ‘shouting.’ You were innocently using them, according to your explanation, but we had no way of knowing that by simply examining the evidence of your post.

As I explained, no I was not shouting. I was simply cutting and pasting an e-mail that happened to use large print. I was more concerned with figuring out how to attach pictures than I was with seeing if the Font carried over well.

The other problem is that I do not understand foreign language, and had no idea what the word “que” means. If you want someone to respond, kindly use english unless you are certain they will understand your lingo.

Si!

I can’t help but wonder why you waited so long to notice the mistake, other than perhaps somebody else pointed it out to you, like your silent emailer, perhaps?

Now don’t go jumping to conclusions, again. I was without a PC for last night (I had to spend the night with my mother in the hospital) and wanted to finally get around to responding. I saw that you partially quoted me, so I went to the source. It was only then that I realized, “Hey, I didn’t quote this in the first place” . You see, often I get on too many threads at the same time and it’s hard to recall what I wrote to who.

The Silent E-mailer was someone I know locally (not a CAF poster) who forwards everything in the world that they get to everybody they know. He sent it to me because he knew it was cool. I copied and pasted because I thought it was cool.

No harm done, we have both made errors, and I thank God for providing this example of how some things can be distorted and misinterpreted, though the persons are not intending it, and are most sincere in what they report.

I could furnish many citations that were misintrepreted from holy ones in scripture, related by St. John of the Cross who warned against putting 100% credence in the words spoken in a apparition. Many times the spiritual meaning is other than what one hears from God.

But this thread is long enough.

Yes, it is long enough, and sadly, I’ve side-tracked it way too much.

Mea Culpa! (For Joysong, "My Bad! )

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Good idea, Barb! Another thought occurred to me, that although St. Catherine received this erroneous message and communicated it during the 12th or 13th century, Our Blessed Mother did not correct the error for several centuries in 18?? when she appeared to St. Bernadette at Lourdes. She could have corrected St. Catherine, at that time, but did not do so. It does make you wonder, huh?

Anyway, the Church has now infallibly proclaimed the truth that was believed by many theologicans in previous centuries, that indeed the Blessed Mother was conceived immaculately. That doesn’t make Bernadette more credible or more saintly than Catherine, for both of them are saints in glory.

… …I know that there can be a fair bit of confusion even amongst Catholics and our saints and any apparitions, messages, locutions etc. etc. connecting these to their canonization (rather their heroic virtue was the reason)…I think it important we get things right as so many non Catholics make enquiries on this very point…thank goodness I had a Dominican education in College with our school motto being “Veritas” (“Truth” in Latin) and I really took the motto to heart, to the consternation of the nuns at times…it still lives with me along with an appreciation of our theology - so beautiful both to reason and Faith. Thanks again for the recommendation of the book - will get on to Pauline Media and see if they have it in stock or can get me a copy…Blessings and my regards, Carole…Barb

 

[Joysong]

I have just been through a terrible trial that has taught me experientially the truths we have been discussing in this thread; i.e., that while an apparition, prophecy or inspiration may be entirely true, the recipient of it may err as to its meaning.

My grandson was unjustly reassigned to a second tour in Iraq. His unit is not supposed to return, since the ruling is that a marine serves once in a 5-year period, and they only returned from duty less than three years ago. So our military bigwhigs bypassed the ruling by transferring him to another unit that had met the five year requirement. Volunteers were bypassed as well, and the ‘powers that be’ insisted that reservists must be reactivated, even though it was not their time.

All avenues of recourse with the military were exhausted to no avail. During lent while this was all pending, I prayed earnestly to God, and received what I believed was His direct inspiration as I read this passage in St. Faustina’s Diary during lent.

1180 June [July] 15, 1937. Once, I learned that I was to be transferred to another house. My knowledge of this was purely interior. At the same time, I heard a voice in my soul: Do not be afraid, My daughter; it is My will that you should remain here. Human plans will be thwarted, since they must conform to My will.

In my human understanding, I believed this meant he would not be transferred due to God’s intervention that would change the mind of my grandson’s superiors. Imagine my horror yesterday when the final decision rendered after several meetings and interaction with the Pentagon, was that he must go to Iraq, and he is to leave Memorial Day! My faith was severely tested with respect to this inspiration, wondering how I could have misheard the Lord.

Suddenly it occurred to me that even though human beings would decide negatively, which was never in my imaginings, God had said human plans would be thwarted. How this is working out is that my grandson was admitted to psyche at a hospital last night, saying, “I can’t do this!” The doctors say he will never be permitted to use a gun, not even for hunting. Which puts the entire matter of active duty into question. I presume he may even be medically discharged.

I share this because the outcome of the inspiration is true, that he will not go to Iraq, but I never expected it to transpire in this extreme manner. I understood it differently from God’s eternal knowing.

This entire matter demonstrated to me that God’s word is always true, but we may not understand it correctly. The chance of an apparition, locution, prophecy, etc. being misinterpreted is very real, even though the recipient of the divine communication is totally sincere in what they heard, but not in what they understood it to mean.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

I have just been through a terrible trial that has taught me experientially the truths we have been discussing in this thread; i.e., that while an apparition, prophecy or inspiration may be entirely true, the recipient of it may err as to its meaning.

Dear Carole…How dreadfully we suffer when those we love are suffering and how high our anxiety when for another. And yes, inspirations etc. can be misinterpreted and by the receiver. I had been wondering where you were as I usually sight and read posts of yours as I wander round the Forums and felt, and prayerfully, that perhaps something could be amiss in your life somewhere, though I hoped not.

My grandson was unjustly reassigned to a second tour in Iraq. His unit is not supposed to return, since the ruling is that a marine serves once in a 5-year period, and they only returned from duty less than three years ago. So our military bigwhigs bypassed the ruling by transferring him to another unit that had met the five year requirement. Volunteers were bypassed as well, and the ‘powers that be’ insisted that reservists must be reactivated, even though it was not their time.

Carole, I am very sorry to read about your grandson and what is transpiring through military authority…and while we know that what transpires is always God’s Will either direct or permissive with trust and confidence, my human heart goes out to you knowing that the cross can be very heavy at times and humanly distressing and though our trust and confidence may persevere, so does our human suffering.

In my human understanding, I believed this meant he would not be transferred due to God’s intervention that would change the mind of my grandson’s superiors. Imagine my horror yesterday when the final decision rendered after several meetings and interaction with the Pentagon, was that he must go to Iraq, and he is to leave Memorial Day! My faith was severely tested with respect to this inspiration, wondering how I could have misheard the Lord.

It must have been overwhelmingly distressing to you…and when the cross is also confusing, it is that much heavier.

Suddenly it occurred to me that even though human beings would decide negatively, which was never in my imaginings, God had said human plans would be thwarted. How this is working out is that my grandson was admitted to psyche at a hospital last night, saying, “I can’t do this!” The doctors say he will never be permitted to use a gun, not even for hunting. Which puts the entire matter of active duty into question. I presume he may even be medically discharged.

More suffering, Carole, and to you and your family and probably the whole family and yourgrandson, even though it is transpiring that your grandson will not be sent, and unjustly and unfairly on another tour of Iraq. I will be keeping your grandson in prayer that The Lord will heal and grant Peace and consolation to him and to you all. I have just now made a note for my Intentions Book.
I know a person who drove an ambulance, and thus served us, who now is a sufferer of post traumatic stress. I hope that your grandson will be well cared for and by the military and hopefully with much insight, understanding and compassion for one who has served and well… also I very much hope he will make a speedy and full recovery in the main.
From what I have heard, Iraq is a war of intense psychological pressure and distress often to our military - in fact any war would be!

I share this because the outcome of the inspiration is true, that he will not go to Iraq, but I never expected it to transpire in this extreme manner. I understood it differently from God’s eternal knowing.

The Lord has indeed as always honored His inspiration to you, but as can happen not in the way presumed. This reminds me of St. Faustina whom The Lord instructed to found a community and she presumed it would transpire in her lifetime. Late in her life here she realized that such was not His Will during her life. Yet communities have now been founded based on her life and message from the Lord of Divine Mercy.

This entire matter demonstrated to me that God’s word is always true, but we may not understand it correctly. The chance of an apparition, locution, prophecy, etc. being misinterpreted is very real, even though the recipient of the divine communication is totally sincere in what they heard, but not in what they understood it to mean.

Amen

Keeping you and your grandson and the whole family, and indeed friends, in prayer at this time. Thank you very much for sharing this insight and born of distressing human experience.

Blessings, Carole to you and to yours…and especially your grandson…my regards…Barb
Keeping our military generally in prayer along with all who serve us often very heroically and in unsung ways…the heroes and saints in our midst, and who often suffer dreadfully. And the families and friends who go through it all with them equally heroic and saintly.
Keeping in prayer too all who are suffering, especially those in areas of violence and war…those people involved in natural disasters…and all those who may suffer unjustly, the innocents…and more saints.

 

[Joysong]

Hello Barb,

It is always a blessed consolation to read your words of hope and comfort. I know of course, that you are right about God permitting this for His greater purposes that we do not see at this time. When one is in the thick of it, those thoughts of faith are hard to think, as you well know more than many of us here.

True, I have been posting less. These suffering cause us to sort out our priorities, and the battles we fight on the homestead make some of the bane discussions at CAF seem like trivia. Desire to talk takes wings while silence is the only haven of peace.

With you, I pray for our servicemen this special weekend we call Memorial Day in the States. [My confidence in our government is at an all-time low.]

Thank you, and may God bless you always,
Carole

 

[BarbaraTherese]

When one is in the thick of it, those thoughts of faith are hard to think, as you well know more than many of us here.

Very true, Carole. Somewhere or other I have read that “the general intention suffices”. Some sort of crisis or trial can ask most all resources and The Lord, who knows our hearts as our human resources focus on some area and rightly, sees the intentions deep in our hearts, and at the time perhaps beyond our consciousness, at every moment, and that is more than enough for Him. The heart has reasons the mind cannot know …a variation of the words of St. Augustine, I think it was.

True, I have been posting less. These suffering cause us to sort out our priorities, and the battles we fight on the homestead make some of the bane discussions at CAF seem like trivia. Desire to talk takes wings while silence is the only haven of peace.

Amen.

With you, I pray for our servicemen this special weekend we call Memorial Day in the States. [My confidence in our government is at an all-time low.]

Will remember the above this coming weekend.

Keeping you and yours, and especially your grandson, in prayer Carole…warm regards…Barb

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

In regards to Jesus sending His mother, it makes more sense than Jesus appearing Himself, for then all the “Rapturists” would go nuts in the street thinking it’s the end of the world - or 7 years before the end of the world.

This raises a v. imp. point - namely, just what is **an apparition ? Is an app. of (say) the BVM the same thing as the presence of the BVM in person at (say) Lourdes; or, is an app. of the BVM a vision in the intellect, but not with the eyes if the body ? **​

**BTW, if it is the latter, it does not follow that it is an hallucination; only that the BVM is not locally present in the manner in which a body is present to a place - that is, by being locally present. **

**IMV, it does not make sense theologically or metaphysically to believe that the BVM was locally present at (say) Lourdes; & I don’t think assent to the Church’s judgement regarding the credibility of the allegations concerning the phenomena of 1858 at Lourdes requires belief that she was. It would require that only if apparitions judged to be worthy of belief required the BVM to be present to a place in a spatially extended manner, like bodily entities on earth. And whether that be required by the logic of such a belief, is what is not clear. **

**This may seem terribly arcane - but metaphysical issues like this are implied by the subject-matter of the thread **

In my view, it makes perfect sense that Mary is the messenger, rather than Jesus. But I’m not sure if that’s your question.

Do I have suggestions for someone telling me that I have sinned because I don’t believe in, say, Medjugorje (which is still not church approved)? Tell them when the Pope blesses it, I will bless it. The belief in Medjugorje can’t be salvific, so it’s understandable to wait for the Church.

I’d rather do that than to pray for the visions, even though I don’t believe, simply because it will appease others. Don’t ever pray just to appease others. Prayer comes from the heart only!!!

 

[ParishPicnic]

This is a fascinating thread. It amazes me how so many people have different views on these matters.

It reminded me of a something that happened when I went to Catholic school and we were having some of the very discussions that this thread entails in eight grade religion class.

One girl said she didn’t believe in apparitions at all. The teacher explained that it wasn’t necessary to believe in private revelation, etc, but to be respectful of people that did.

The girl would hear none of it. She kept insisting that nobody could possibly believe in what she was calling “ridiculous,supernatural ghost stories” and she would have to see an apparation with her own eyes if anyone ever expected her to believe in one.

Just then, there was a loud noise and the plastic casing on the fluorescent light above her desk let go.

The plastic casing hung there, just like it would be if the custodian was opening it to change one of those long and thin tube light bulbs.

It didn’t actually come crashing down on her head or her desk (that would have been too theatrical!), it just dangled there only connected one side.

That was one heck of an amazing “coincidence.”

In my entire life, before or after that day, I have never seen another industrial light fixture open up by itself, have you?

 

[BarbaraTherese]

This is a fascinating thread. It amazes me how so many people have different views on these matters.

It reminded me of a something that happened when I went to Catholic school and we were having some of the very discussions that this thread entails in eight grade religion class.

One girl said she didn’t believe in apparitions at all. The teacher explained that it wasn’t necessary to believe in private revelation, etc, but to be respectful of people that did.

The girl would hear none of it. She kept insisting that nobody could possibly believe in what she was calling “ridiculous,supernatural ghost stories” and she would have to see an apparation with her own eyes if anyone ever expected her to believe in one.

Just then, there was a loud noise and the plastic casing on the fluorescent light above her desk let go.

The plastic casing hung there, just like it would be if the custodian was opening it to change one of those long and thin tube light bulbs.

It didn’t actually come crashing down on her head or her desk (that would have been too theatrical!), it just dangled there only connected one side.

That was one heck of an amazing “coincidence.”

In my entire life, before or after that day, I have never seen another industrial light fixture open up by itself, have you?

Must admit that I have never seen the like either. Did the whole class burst out laughing? …I know I would not have been able to contain my laughter in such a circumstance …and I wonder if the young lady puzzled over what happened?
We are all on a journey of many journeys within the overall and doubtless The Lord will bring this young woman to belief if it is His Will - meanwhile we can pray for those who find any sort of belief difficult or impossible which can often mean that the person has difficulties with trust generally…Blessings and regards. Thank you for sharing the story, I am still laughing not at the young lady, but at the circumstances surrounding her declaration of disbelief…Barb

 

[Al_Masetti]

A friend of mine has never had any use for the Catholic Church.

One day during World War 2, he was on a mission and they got cut off behind enemy lines and he knew he was going to die. But all of a sudden, he got this feeling that came over him, that everything would be ok.

It took many hours but they made it safely back to their base.

He told me that story about 40 years after the event.

About five years after he told me, he was at a reunion … and he asked the pilot of his plane if he remembered that very dangerous mission … that had occurred 45 years earlier.

And the pilot said … “oh, yes … that was when the Blessed Mother appeared to me in the cockpit.”

So, my friend, the unbeliever, actually witnessed an apparition of the Blessed Mother and didn’t know it.

It is very apparent … in small ways and big ways … that God arranges for apparitions and miracles … and, very curiously, very often, only one or two people see or witness or experience them.

Go figure.