If you don't believe in ID after this you will

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Of course. “Mindless natural processes” must therefore be sustained by God and can’t be “mindless” strictly speaking. For a theist the question “could mindless natural processes have created X” must be meaningless.
You may have a point here.

In any case, an atheist and agnostic if they accept the distinction between “mindless processes” and “design” seem to be doomed when confronted with this video. No? It does make a compelling and scientific case that life is designed. One cannot try to get around the issue by saying “Well, theism claims everything is designed.” Right? Am I wrong?
 
As much as I hate to, I have no choice but to disagree. On the “physical class”, all motion or change is caused. Since the physicist tends not to push on to “causes”, in his investigations of mobile being, but rather to limit them only to what can be mathematically concluded, he cannot pronounce on anything from a causal point of view, except from a “diner table conversational” aspect.
I think your disagreement concerns subatomic particles? Our limited knowledge obviously does not rule out the possibility that apparently uncaused events are directly caused by God but we cannot know all that omnipotence entails. There seems no reason why God cannot create chaos, i.e. a large number of unrelated events. If this is true why is it impossible to create a small number of unrelated events within an otherwise orderly system?

One thing is certain - and far more important: the implications of your reference to “plural causes”. Hume’s celebrated dilemma claimed to dispose of God’s benevolence:

“Why is there any misery at all in the world? Not by chance surely.”

Ironically the factor he dismissed so abruptly is the solution to the problem of physical evil! Most theists believe everything is due to Design. Atheists believe everything is ultimately due to Chance, i.e. Non-Design. The truth lies between the two extremes. In an immense system like the universe there are bound to be many coincidences which are purposeless and even dysteleological or “antiteleological”, i.e. opposed to the purposes for which the system is created. In other words there is an element of chance within the framework of Design which causes physical evils like accidents, disasters, deformities, disease and death. They are foreseen by God - and often prevented - but most are permitted because too many miracles would defeat the purpose of creating an orderly system - which is the basis of a rational existence. It is a logical and physical impossibility for a system to be simultaneously orderly and disorderly. God’s power is infinite but it does not extend to absurdities!
 
You may have a point here.
Good 🙂 My point is if there is no real distinction between “mindless processes” and “design” it’s silly to attempt to “scientifically” test for it. So a Catholic should regard this as silly. The best that could be done is attempt to show an inconsistency in the atheist/agnostic position. But that, as I will show below, cannot work in theory.
In any case, an atheist and agnostic if they accept the distinction between “mindless processes” and “design” seem to be doomed when confronted with this video. No?
No.
It does make a compelling and scientific case that life is designed.
No, it doesn’t. Let’s say you take a test for a rare disease and you test positive. The test is known to only give a false positive result 1 in 10,000 times. Is that a compelling case you have the disease? Not if the prevalence of the disease is 1 in 100,000! It’s more likely you got a false positive than that you actually have the disease.

So what are the odds that a designer existed with the ability and will to create life. Without this information there is no case. In the case of God, it’s impossible to have this information. In case you’re wondering, you can’t argue after-the-fact by saying well, life is here, therefore God willed to create it; the atheist could just as well say, life is here, therefore the right initial conditions were present for it to arise. The right question is, given God’s existence, what is the probability He would create life? And it’s unanswerable.
One cannot try to get around the issue by saying “Well, theism claims everything is designed.” Right? Am I wrong?
You are wrong. Assuming theism is true, a test for design should fail, because everything is designed; whatever your test is showing, it isn’t design; if you get a negative result, it isn’t because the thing wasn’t designed. I’m showing logically that the test in fact does fail.

OTOH a **successful **test for design would in fact be a **disproof **of theism, for then there would in fact exist “mindless natural processes”.
 
No, it doesn’t. Let’s say you take a test for a rare disease and you test positive. The test is known to only give a false positive result 1 in 10,000 times. Is that a compelling case you have the disease? Not if the prevalence of the disease is 1 in 100,000! It’s more likely you got a false positive than that you actually have the disease.

So what are the odds that a designer existed with the ability and will to create life. Without this information there is no case. In the case of God, it’s impossible to have this information. In case you’re wondering, you can’t argue after-the-fact by saying well, life is here, therefore God willed to create it; the atheist could just as well say, life is here, therefore the right initial conditions were present for it to arise. The right question is, given God’s existence, what is the probability He would create life? And it’s unanswerable.
… okay. Would you say, though, that this video shows that the rational position is to believe that life is intelligently designed? Whether there is a God or not?
 
Good evening, all -

I disagree with Intelligent Design, because it does not stipulate whose intelligence. And that lack leaves a gaping hole, to me, that can be filled by anybody’s anything, including filled by Satan. No, I believe God created the universe and that He loves His creation and all the creatures in it. A merely intelligent designer is not enough: it has to be God the Holy Trinity, who loves all His creation, not merely loving only us.

God is love,
Don
 
I think your disagreement concerns subatomic particles? Our limited knowledge obviously does not rule out the possibility that apparently uncaused events are directly caused by God but we cannot know all that omnipotence entails. There seems no reason why God cannot create chaos, i.e. a large number of unrelated events. If this is true why is it impossible to create a small number of unrelated events within an otherwise orderly system?

One thing is certain - and far more important: the implications of your reference to “plural causes”. Hume’s celebrated dilemma claimed to dispose of God’s benevolence:

“Why is there any misery at all in the world? Not by chance surely.”

Ironically the factor he dismissed so abruptly is the solution to the problem of physical evil! Most theists believe everything is due to Design. Atheists believe everything is ultimately due to Chance, i.e. Non-Design. The truth lies between the two extremes. In an immense system like the universe there are bound to be many coincidences which are purposeless and even dysteleological or “antiteleological”, i.e. opposed to the purposes for which the system is created. In other words there is an element of chance within the framework of Design which causes physical evils like accidents, disasters, deformities, disease and death. They are foreseen by God - and often prevented - but most are permitted because too many miracles would defeat the purpose of creating an orderly system - which is the basis of a rational existence. It is a logical and physical impossibility for a system to be simultaneously orderly and disorderly. God’s power is infinite but it does not extend to absurdities!
Tony:

Precisely, my friend. It is no more complicated than that.

jd
 
JDaniels, incredible post. Do you happen to know of any theological or philosophical books or links that I can study in order to better understand this?
Thanks a bunch
There’s one that I can recommend, Right and Reason by Austin Fagothey, S. J.

jd
 
… okay. Would you say, though, that this video shows that the rational position is to believe that life is intelligently designed? Whether there is a God or not?
We know life can be intelligently designed; we’ve done it ourselves in the laboratory. But you still need to look at the likelihood of intelligent design in that case (no God) to look at life on earth. Now, under naturalism, intelligence evolved from inanimate matter in about 5 billion years on earth. Now it’s true there was more time (10 billion years) for it to evolve somewhere else in the universe before then, but these odds are not substantially greater and might be far less depending on the conditions; moreover, that intelligent agent would have to have found himself in a corner of the universe (such as ours) where life actually could be designed and had the means (laboratory, spaceship, etc.) to do it. So I’d still rate the posterior probability of intelligent design as unlikely.

Would you agree that under theism asking for a “test of design” is silly if everything is designed by God?
 
We know life can be intelligently designed; we’ve done it ourselves in the laboratory. But you still need to look at the likelihood of intelligent design in that case (no God) to look at life on earth. Now, under naturalism, intelligence evolved from inanimate matter in about 5 billion years on earth. Now it’s true there was more time (10 billion years) for it to evolve somewhere else in the universe before then, but these odds are not substantially greater and might be far less depending on the conditions; moreover, that intelligent agent would have to have found himself in a corner of the universe (such as ours) where life actually could be designed and had the means (laboratory, spaceship, etc.) to do it. So I’d still rate the posterior probability of intelligent design as unlikely.

Would you agree that under theism asking for a “test of design” is silly if everything is designed by God?
Care to share your calculations of the odds?
 
But that God would still be the designer behind the “particular principles”, no? He would, of necessity, understand and be responsible for the way the seed unraveled, including all the various complex systems that resulted, rather than be surprised by the outcome.
Obviously, since God is the cause of physical reality. Sorry, did i leave that out?
 
Obviously, since God is the cause of physical reality. Sorry, did i leave that out?
OK, and it may be obvious to you but there are those who speculate that God created everything initially-planted the seed- then it took off growing on its own without Him having full understanding of where or more importantly *how *it was all unraveling-sort of like it might somehow all be too complex even for Him-as if He was the primary cause but that He wouldn’t necessarily understand how subsequent causes would be capable of creating life, for example, and all its variations - which seems more than a bit absurd to me and I figured for you as well-but thought I’d ask.
 
I will add this quote also from St. Thomas’ Summa Theologica (On the Government of Things in General (q 103, article 1):

Certain ancient philosophers denied the government of the world, saying that all things happened by chance. But such an opinion can be refuted as impossible in two ways.

First, by observation of things themselves: for we observe that in nature things happen always or nearly always for the best; which would not be the case unless some sort of providence directed nature towards good as an end; which is to govern. Wherefore the unfailing order we observe in things is a sign of their being governed; for instance, if we enter a well-ordered house we gather therefrom the intention of him that put it in order, as Tullius says (De Nat. Deorum ii), quoting Aristotle [Cleanthes].

Secondly, this is clear from a consideration of Divine goodness, which, as we have said above (44, 4; 65, 2), was the cause of the production of things in existence. For as “it belongs to the best to produce the best,” it is not fitting that the supreme goodness of God should produce things without giving them their perfection. Now a thing’s ultimate perfection consists in the attainment of its end. Therefore it belongs to the Divine goodness, as it brought things into existence, so to lead them to their end: and this is to govern.
Thanks for this quote. Given that you support ID, you obviously think that something in this quote contradicts the synthesis of Evolution as understood by the natural sciences and Catholicism. That you thought this is in fact quite embarrassing looking at it from my point of view; but perhaps an easy mistake to make if you don’t understand Aquinas and Evolution. Its a shame.
With this response we can see the two kinds of Argument from Design…

…The problem is that since evolution occurs by chance (reliance on a random variable), then this would be what St. Thomas is arguing against here.
Let me just note that Aquinas admits that one possible defeater of his argument is natural necessity. In any case, Aquinas is not talking about intelligent design as you understand it. That organisms act for a meaningful and purposeful end is proof of Gods existence regardless of whether or not they evolved according to the principles of Evolution. Aquinas would understand that and accept it if he were alive to day since Aquinas does not deny the fact of secondary causes and chance when he made those arguments.

It seems evident, according to my understanding of St.Thomas, that Aquinas supports the notion of secondary causes and that nature functions by itself according to inherent principles. What he denies is that the whole universe is a chance event and he shows us that the order/laws/principles/functions and acts that we see in nature is not characteristic of a Universe that was not designed to fulfill a purpose. We see that nature acts towards ends that are meaningful only in the sense of purpose. That events come together through secondary principles is irrelevant, since it is the first principle of being that defines the end. The only defense that an Atheist has against this argument is the same argument they had before there was ever a theory of Evolution, and that is to say that the principles and laws of nature exist for no reason (brute fact), and thus the evidence of purpose is an illusion. But this is just a suggestion. An assertion, that cannot be proven. This assertion does not change the fact that the world looks as if it was created for a purpose since it acts for meaningful ends. Given this fact, while we cannot afford any certainty, it is reasonable to believe that the world was created for a purpose.

ID supporters are so hoodwinked that they spend all their energy trying to disprove a theory that never had anything to say about the purpose of things, but rather expressed the biological and natural means through which animals vary. This fact, while it might undermine “Paley”, does not undermine any of the teleological arguments as expressed by Aquinas, since in order for Evolution to work in the first place, there still has to be consistent rules/laws/principles of function and actuality, and this is what Aquinas is referring to in his argument.

The fact of the matter is, Paley’s argument that complex structures could not arise naturally is in principle false. While logic might rule out spontaneous assemblence with out a designer, neither logic or science can rule out the possibility that there are in fact natures that are as such that they assemble spontaneously into complex structures by themselves in response to precedent events. But in order for that to happen there has to be laws and principles that allow that to happen, and so God is not removed as a teleological cause in every instance just because of the fact that there are natural events that arrange themselves.

ID supporters are in fact helping the supporters of naturalism in their attempts to blind people, by trying to find some kind irrefutable scientific proof. By doing this, they are in fact affirming the belief that only scientific evidence is good enough. They are creating a dispute that doesn’t exist. Evolution is not proof against purpose.
 
ID supporters are in fact helping the supporters of naturalism in their attempts to blind people, by trying to find some kind irrefutable scientific proof. By doing this, they are in fact affirming the belief that only scientific evidence is good enough. They are creating a dispute that doesn’t exist. Evolution is not proof against purpose.]
MindOverMatter, you are right about this. IDers are also perhaps unwittingly contributing to the growth of “unbelief” as educated people jettison religion, which is (wrongly) identified in their minds with the anti-scientific view of “intelligent design.” ID is ultimately another form of the god-of-the-gaps argument.

Still, I have no beef with IDers. I’m happy that they should work toward finding evidence of design. They have a lab in Seattle, I understand, dedicated to this purpose. There’s no hurry – we can wait for their announcement that they’ve found God’s “smoking gun.” Meanwhile, biologists around the world are quietly working to strengthen incrementally the explanatory power of the theory of evolution.

StAnastasia
 
MindOverMatter, you are right about this. IDers are also perhaps unwittingly contributing to the growth of “unbelief” as educated people jettison religion, which is (wrongly) identified in their minds with the anti-scientific view of “intelligent design.” ID is ultimately another form of the god-of-the-gaps argument.

Still, I have no beef with IDers. I’m happy that they should work toward finding evidence of design. They have a lab in Seattle, I understand, dedicated to this purpose. There’s no hurry – we can wait for their announcement that they’ve found God’s “smoking gun.” Meanwhile, biologists around the world are quietly working to strengthen incrementally the explanatory power of the theory of evolution.

StAnastasia
Come again? We know design exists. Science is attempting to create a formula for detection. How on earth is this a problem for Catholics and belief?
 
MindOverMatter, you are right about this. IDers are also perhaps unwittingly contributing to the growth of “unbelief” as educated people jettison religion, which is (wrongly) identified in their minds with the anti-scientific view of “intelligent design.” ID is ultimately another form of the god-of-the-gaps argument.

Still, I have no beef with IDers. I’m happy that they should work toward finding evidence of design. They have a lab in Seattle, I understand, dedicated to this purpose. There’s no hurry – we can wait for their announcement that they’ve found God’s “smoking gun.” Meanwhile, biologists around the world are quietly working to strengthen incrementally the explanatory power of the theory of evolution.

StAnastasia
Biologists around the world are not strengthening the explanatory power of evolution. It is a series of observations designed, according to many who post here, to explain that life assembled itself, became more complex by itself and ended up with man by a series of events that, according to Stephen Jay Gould, if they could be rewound would produce a different result.

Fortunately, Intelligent Design is a far better explanation than chance and error giving rise to life, if, in fact, some type of process occurred. Intelligent Design relies on the same criteria of observation that archaeologists use all the time to recognize artifacts produced by an intelligence.

When the Church adds its own observations regarding ID and Evolution then, for Catholics at least, it is understood that things don’t just happen but they happen for a reason. Pope Benedict has made it quite clear that the Intelligent project of creation was willed by God. Contrast this to the purely chance conceived appearance of man and the degradation of man as merely another animal. Divine revelation provides the missing information that science cannot reveal and sometimes even denies.

It is wrong to think that faith or a particular church are chosen by the faculty of education alone. It is the modernist error to view religious faith as having such an intimate connection to science that it turns people away from God if it is not embraced and promoted by some particular Church. The uneducated have no less faith than the educated. God is not a respector of persons.

Peace,
Ed
 
Biologists around the world are not strengthening the explanatory power of evolution. It is a series of observations designed, according to many who post here, to explain that life assembled itself, became more complex by itself and ended up with man by a series of events that, according to Stephen Jay Gould, if they could be rewound would produce a different result.

Fortunately, Intelligent Design is a far better explanation than chance and error giving rise to life, if, in fact, some type of process occurred. Intelligent Design relies on the same criteria of observation that archaeologists use all the time to recognize artifacts produced by an intelligence.

When the Church adds its own observations regarding ID and Evolution then, for Catholics at least, it is understood that things don’t just happen but they happen for a reason. Pope Benedict has made it quite clear that the Intelligent project of creation was willed by God. Contrast this to the purely chance conceived appearance of man and the degradation of man as merely another animal. Divine revelation provides the missing information that science cannot reveal and sometimes even denies.

It is wrong to think that faith or a particular church are chosen by the faculty of education alone. It is the modernist error to view religious faith as having such an intimate connection to science that it turns people away from God if it is not embraced and promoted by some particular Church. The uneducated have no less faith than the educated. God is not a respector of persons.

Peace,
Ed
The fairytale gets more imaginative with every new discovery. As a writer you can appreciate the fantasy stage presented to the authors.
 
As it presently exists, the theory is built on a form of faith that cannot be overturned. It’s primary function, as far as I can tell, is not to create jobs or strengthen the economy or even to lead to new drugs, it is the creation story of the anti-theist. It reflects perfectly a worldview that cannot ever allow the supernatural or a God/gods concept to exist. Therefore, it must be promoted constantly. If some sort of process occurred, that process must be informed by divine revelation, at least for Catholics.

Peace,
Ed
 
Let me just note that Aquinas admits that one possible defeater of his argument is natural necessity. In any case, Aquinas is not talking about intelligent design as you understand it. That organisms act for a meaningful and purposeful end is proof of Gods existence regardless of whether or not they evolved according to the principles of Evolution. Aquinas would understand that and accept it if he were alive to day since Aquinas does not deny the fact of secondary causes and chance when he made those arguments.

MOM – Yes, I already explained that there are two prongs of the teleolgical argument. One prong speaks about organisms acting for a purposeful end. Thus, evolution itself would be an indication of God’s law at work. This is what you describe here.

But I’m referring to the second point that St. Thomas raised (actually his first example in the quote) – namely, that observations in nature show complex, functional structure – like a well-ordered house.
What he denies is that the whole universe is a chance event and he shows us that the order/laws/principles/functions and acts that we see in nature is not characteristic of a Universe that was not designed to fulfill a purpose.
 
But in order for that to happen there has to be laws and principles that allow that to happen, and so God is not removed as a teleological cause in every instance just because of the fact that there are natural events that arrange themselves.
First of all, since evolution is a random process, it cannot be considered a law in the strict sense. Secondly, self-generation is not really an explanation to speak of. This merely is the claim that “nature can produce anything imaginable” – which is basically the evolutionary claim. Is that true? Or does evolution have some limits? That is a question that ID research is looking into.
ID supporters are in fact helping the supporters of naturalism in their attempts to blind people, by trying to find some kind irrefutable scientific proof.
No – it’s based on probability studies. That there is an intelligent, guiding, coordinating and designing cause in the origin and development of nature is the most reasonable solution to the question.
By doing this, they are in fact affirming the belief that only scientific evidence is good enough.
Not at all. By focusing on one aspect of teleology does not mean that the other aspect is forgotten or useless. ID contributes to our understanding. Again, as Fr. McWilliams taught clearly, the argument from structural order is added to the argument from purpose and attainment of ends. One does not fight against or conflict with the other.
 
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