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MarcoPolo
Guest
Because God is still permitting someone into heaven despite having attachment to sin.
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AlegreFe
Guest
Even unbelievers are touched by God’s Grace. So Grace is NOT limited by unbelief. If you say that, then you are saying that God has limits. How do you think that an unbeliever comes to believe at a later time in his/her life? ONLY by the GRACE of GOD! And once that “former unbeliever” continues on his/her journey, he/she can still be touched by God’s Grace but now by having the Faith that God gave them as a Gift and using that gift of Faith along with loving others and loving and serving Jesus Christ. Loving and Serving Jesus Christ is more than what you think. It also means being humble and obeying His Church. Jesus left someone in charge here on earth whether you like it or not, or whether you believe it or not.
Sacraments are works of Jesus Christ. We do NOTHING to deserve the Gifts that God gave us through Jesus Christ in the Sacraments. The Sacraments are a means to convey Sanctifying Grace. We are only to cooperate (faith without works is dead) with God’s Grace and have Faith and Trust in Jesus Christ for what He did for us on the Cross and rising again. The root meaning of the Latin word for sacrament means to make sacred. We cannot make anything Sacred, only God can. So you are so wrong in saying that a Sacrament is a “work” that WE do. It is not.
Yes… we all need Faith, Hope and Charity (Love) to survive and get to Heaven.
M
Montalban
Guest
But he wouldn’t have to, if they truly asked for forgiveness
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resting
Guest
Hi everyone
As a protestant I am interested in finding out about ‘Purgatory’ - I don’t know much about it so I searched and found this topic. Is the main verse it is based on 1 Cor 3:15?
blessings: resting
As a protestant I am interested in finding out about ‘Purgatory’ - I don’t know much about it so I searched and found this topic. Is the main verse it is based on 1 Cor 3:15?
blessings: resting
M
MarcoPolo
Guest
If it was true and complete, you are correct, they would not go to Purgatory.
M
MarcoPolo
Guest
Well, you can start with how you’d answer the question in post #1, and eventually you’ll find that somehow you know there is a transition from when we are sinful humans to non-sinful heavenly beings.
The Catechism describes it in paragraphs 1030-1032.
And these articles may help as well.
Is Purgatory Found in the Bible?
Purgatory as described by some non-Catholics
How to argue the existence of Purgatory
And welcome to the forums!
M
Montalban
Guest
Thanks for the circular argument!
Purgatory is true, because the people have to go there!
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MarcoPolo
Guest
No, that’s not the “argument.” I think you have misapplied the label of “circular.” You can backtrack this thread to get my actual “argument.”Thanks for the circular argument!
Purgatory is true, because the people have to go there!
R
Renton405
Guest
1/3 of the angels sinned and they didn’t have a physical body. The first being that sinned was Satan, and he never had a fleshly body and yet he is the most dangerous being ever… Sin is something that hurts both the body and pierces into the soul. Thats what makes it so dangerous. because it effects both body and soul. The flesh dosen’t “block” out the sin… This theory was popularized by the Gnostic Heretics…
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Montalban
Guest
They would not go to Purgatory, because there is no purgatory.
God doesn’t *need *satisfaction, because God is perfect. It is illogical to hold to a belief that when God says all we have to do is to ask him for forgiveness, that he would say “Sure, but first I’ve got to burn you for a little while”.
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JoeyWarren
Guest
A side thought for a moment?
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
**Is jealousy a trait of perfection? **
Satisfaction is the result after the problem causing jealousy is corrected…
C
Contarini
Guest
I would say, “Lord, I haven’t a clue. I throw myself on your mercy.”
No. That is not how it works. Baptism is a pledge of God’s mercy. Luther did indeed cite baptism to the devil when the devil tempted him to despair of God’s mercy (Luther is, of course, well known for his promotion of works righteousness
), but he did so because baptism is the word of promise that we are buried in Christ, not because baptism is something we have done to put God in debt to us.You are unlikely to get anywhere by telling me what I believe. I do not think sacraments are meritorious works or put God in debt to us. Sacraments are not something we offer God in exchange for grace. They are the means by which God offers grace to us.
Exactly. And that is why sacraments are so important–they are (along with the proclamation of the Word) the means by which Christ’s saving work is offered to us.
Well, your use of this example in this context shows not only your rather crass view of God (as if God goes around asking people why they should be let into heaven–that is not what the father did to the prodigal son) but your complete refusal to hear what I have been trying to tell you. I do not think that sacraments are things we can cite to God to make Him let us into heaven. I do think that, like Luther, we can point to the sacraments when Satan tempts us to disbelieve in God’s mercy. The sacraments are efficacious signs of God’s mercy, not meritorious works.
Edwin
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MarcoPolo
Guest
Let me clarify and repeat that if a person’s repentance was total and complete and they were in a condition such that they would not sin anymore and died, they would not go to Purgatory, because their soul would be in a heavenly condition and no longer earthly.
Unfortunately, most people (even those bound for heaven who follow Christ) are always vulnerable to sinning. And since nothing unclean can enter heaven, it is actually illogical to think we will not be first transformed after death to a state of perfection.
As to “I have to burn you for a while” comment, you’ll have to take that up with Paul.
The Church doesn’t have a specific doctrine on a literal fire, or if it is perhaps a metaphor for something like smelting, i.e. the process by which gold is purified, and the imperfections are separated. It is best understood as purification from being sin prone to being non-sin-prone.
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believers
Guest
NO, you would appear before God with a basket full things you think matter.
No, it isn’t. It’s a declaration of your unbelief in what God said… that faith in the blood of Christ was sufficient. You’ve decided to believe in a man-made idea that water can wash your sins away. Actually, I don’ t know this for sure because you’re not Roman Catholic.
True believers have always existed. Religion has been working overtime to wipe them out. So my point is why use Luther? He’s not the builder of my faith.Luther did indeed cite baptism to the devil when the devil tempted him to despair of God’s mercy (Luther is, of course, well known for his promotion of works righteousness
I’m not telling you what to believe. I’m just telling you the truth. You have free will to believe what you want. You’ve obviously chosen religion to get you into Heaven. I’ve chosen to believe God and He said eternal life is through faith.
Furthermore, the example I gave was just an illustration of what it means to have faith. It means relying completely on God.
Unbiblical. You can only receive the free gift of Grace by faith.
No they aren’t. No matter how much YOU say so. The Word doesn’t say that. The Word says for by Grace are you saved THROUGH Faith.
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believers
Guest
Grace is offered to ALL mankind. Not just people in the RCC.
This free gift of Grace offered to ALL mankind can only be received THROUGH faith. No other way.
Yes, God is all powerful but God cannot go against His Word. He said eternal life is receive through faith and He meant it.
Yes, but then you also say this person MUST perform sacraments. There’s a huge difference in biblical faith and religious faith.
I’m constantly amazed how you use the same words but they mean something completely different.
Receive Grace through sacraments? I don’t know where in the bible you get that from. God said that the FREE gift of eternal life is offered to ALL mankind through faith. He did not say to those in the RCC through sacraments.
Sanctification comes by the Word of God. You guys keep taking the “faith without works is dead” out of context. Why don’t we read it in context…
Jam 2:14
What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jam 2:15
If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jam 2:16
And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?
Jam 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
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believers
Guest
Jesus went on a journey and gave authority to His servants… I became a servant of Christ when believed on Him. Jesus is still in charge but He gave us the Holy Spirit.
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fullofzeal
Guest
prideful fools, all of you.
peace
peace
J
JoeyWarren
Guest
Jesus gave His authority to his Delegates (also known as an Apostle)
**
ἀπόστολος apostolos ap-os’-tol-os
From G649; a delegate; specifically an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ (“apostle”), (with miraculous powers): - apostle, messenger, he that is sent.
**
You became a disciple. You can never become an apostle in your current state.
Jesus chose 12 to be Delegates(Apostles) out of a multitude of Disciiples.
What is a Delegate?
Delegate: 1.a person designated to act for or represent another or others; deputy; representative, as in a political convention.
**Jesus chose 12 persons designated to act for himself or to represent himself. **
And Jesus gave the keys of heaven to just one Apostle to be the Cheif Apostle.
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believers
Guest
Mar 13:34
[For the Son of man is] as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
1Cr 7:22
For he that is called in the Lord, [being] a servant, is the Lord’s freeman: likewise also he that is called, [being] free, is Christ’s servant.
Tts 1:1
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
Col 4:12
Epaphras, who is [one] of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.
Jam 1:1
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
2Pe 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
Jud 1:1
Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, [and] called:
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JoeyWarren
Guest
You are not a servant in the same context.
Tts 1:1
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
All apostles are servants, yet not all servants are apostles.
Tts 1:1
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
All apostles are servants, yet not all servants are apostles.
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