If you don't know about AA and the 12 steps

[_A]

Hi everyone. I am wondering what the Catholic community here thinks of AA. I suppose I should post the steps complete, first. (source aa.org/lang/en/en_pdfs/smf-121_en.pdf)
AA:

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become
   unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to
   sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we
   understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature
   of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make
   amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do
   so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly
    admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with
    God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us
    and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these Steps, we tried to
    carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our
    affairs.
    Copyright A.A. World Services, Inc.
    Rev.5/

Personally, I have looked at it and it doesn’t stand up to reason. I would like to take the time to try and study it rationally, and we could start with the first step.
from the horses mouth - aa.org/lang/en/en_pdfs/smf-121_en.pdf
AA:

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become
   unmanageable

I have to discard this based on the following. Claiming that people are powerless can be proven wrong with just one of those people demonstrating power.
The example I have is that some people living with dependancy will choose to stay ‘clean and sober’ for a meeting such as a court date, or a sentencing hearing. This may demonstrate only the slightest bit of power over alcohol, but power it is, falsifying the first step.
That a life can be unmanageable is also clearly false. If one had a good management plan and willing execution, what could possibly make a life ‘unmanageable’? (not to mention that many ‘alcoholics’ show various levels of management skills in this area)

AA has had a virtual monopoly on this subject for quite a while now. I have a little direct experience. While I do not have a problem with alcohol, I have been to many meetings of AA (first in 1981 or 82) and currently about 1/10 of my clients have some kind of substance abuse issue. Many of them attend AA (though the only client I have who has beaten alcohol for any length of time did it with real doctors and no AA).

I hope particularly to get some people discussing this who do NOT have a connection with AA. Those in the AA congregation do not always see the flaws in the core of the program clearly.

 

[Wirraway]

…
That a life can be unmanageable is also clearly false. If one had a good management plan and willing execution, what could possibly make a life ‘unmanageable’? (not to mention that many ‘alcoholics’ show various levels of management skills in this area)…

“horse’s mouth”, eh?

why the quotes around the words alcoholics and unmanageable? do you think this is all an act?

have you ever known, I mean personally known, an addict? they can function, but at some point, getting another fix, drink, hit, view of porn, or whatever they have become addicted to becomes all an consuming drive and without this they cannot continue functioning. they will lie, cheat or steal to meet their needs, hurt anyone or anything, including themselves and the people closest to them. that is what unmanageable means, in part. you really, really need to do a little reading about the nature of addiction before passing judgment on the effectiveness of AA.

no one plans to become an addict, by the way.

I am an usher at the 8.00am Mass in my parish. one of my jobs is to direct AA members arriving to their 8.00am meeting held in one of the parish facilities, and at 8.00am on any Sunday morning, there are plenty who seek mutual support.

 

[Tonks40]

I hope particularly to get some people discussing this who do NOT have a connection with AA. Those in the AA congregation do not always see the flaws in the core of the program clearly.

Guess that counts me out…AA saved my husband’s life.

 

[Seeker_Of_Truth]

That a life can be unmanageable is also clearly false

Life indeed can become truly unmanageable for someone with an addiction. The person may have everything else in life “under control,” but the addiction is an area where no will power seems to be effective. The only hope for the person is to admit he or she is powerless over it, and turn to God for strength. Over time, the addict may learn that he is really powerless over himself or herself, and thus a total giving over of oneself to God occurs. Living the principles outlined in AA (I’m in SA) have allowed me to recognize I have a cross and to turn to Christ to help me bear my burden. It has been such a blessing! Without this thorn in the flesh, I would probably still think that I’m completely self-sufficient, with no need for God. Thank God this is no longer the case!

The only thing that made me uncomfortable at first about the 12 steps was the idea of a Higher Power and turning to God “as we understood him.” But then again, one has to understand that some of the people that show up to meetings are self-proclaimed athiests, and so their opening up to something bigger than themselves is a great first step towards admiting that there IS a God. As they say, one step at a time!

 

[_A]

Guess that counts me out…AA saved my husband’s life.

I didn’t mean to cut you out, please feel free to contribute. The reason I wanted to encourage people who had no experience to contribute was that I know how convinced I was before I started really looking into AA.

Looked at from outside the church of AA, there seems to be no difference which god you use, as long as you worship it the way they say (such as ‘humbly asking’ and expecting him to intervene and remove your shortcomings.)​

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Life indeed can become truly unmanageable for someone with an addiction.

Then how is it that so many manage their lives?

The person may have everything else in life “under control,” but the addiction is an area where no will power seems to be effective.

Except in the examples you ignored in my original post.

The only hope for the person is to admit he or she is powerless over it, and turn to God for strength.

This can be proven false in a number of ways, but I will pick just one (which is enough).
I had an ‘addiction’ for 20 years. I went to a doctor, who prescribed a medication, which I took as directed, never ONCE pretending that I was powerless or that there was an invisible man in the sky was going to ‘beam’ me strength somehow.

Over time, the addict may learn that he is really powerless over himself or herself, and thus a total giving over of oneself to God occurs. Living the principles outlined in AA (I’m in SA) have allowed me to recognize I have a cross and to turn to Christ to help me bear my burden. It has been such a blessing! Without this thorn in the flesh, I would probably still think that I’m completely self-sufficient, with no need for God. Thank God this is no longer the case!

It sounds more to me like you have had good support in the form of your social group (church) and your own willingness to stop. If you think this ‘Higher Power’ is so much better than you, how is it that some people quit drinking on their own, and some in AA (the vast majority of those who try it) fail again and again to maintain their stated goal of abstinence?

The only thing that made me uncomfortable at first about the 12 steps was the idea of a Higher Power and turning to God “as we understood him.” But then again, one has to understand that some of the people that show up to meetings are self-proclaimed athiests, and so their opening up to something bigger than themselves is a great first step towards admiting that there IS a God. As they say, one step at a time!

So it would seem that there would be, according to your hypothesis, no chance for an atheist to overcome an addiction, is that correct?
Admitting there is a god doesn’t really make one exist, except in the imagination of believers

“horse’s mouth”, eh?

I used it as slang for getting it from the source. Do you understand?

why the quotes around the words alcoholics and unmanageable?

I don’t like the word ‘alcoholic’, as it is not a diagnosis and from most usage, I would say that it is usually derogatory. Thanks for asking, I wanted to point it out. There are better minds than a 1930’s proctologist working on dependency.

do you think this is all an act?

No, why do you ask?

have you ever known, I mean personally known, an addict?

Have you ever read, I mean personally read, my original post?
I have known people who struggle with dependency.

they can function, but at some point, getting another fix, drink, hit, view of porn, or whatever they have become addicted to becomes all an consuming drive and without this they cannot continue functioning. they will lie, cheat or steal to meet their needs, hurt anyone or anything, including themselves and the people closest to them. that is what unmanageable means, in part. you really, really need to do a little reading about the nature of addiction before passing judgment on the effectiveness of AA.

What kind of interest do you think AA has in it’s efficacy?
This is an important part of the question, as a rehab program could not effectively improve without the ability to check it’s results.
Be as specific as you can, please. I have found this information pretty thin.

no one plans to become an addict, by the way.

Are you sure? How can you be sure? There are people who flirt with death in any number of kooky ways, and being ‘an addict’ has been romanticized often enough by the media that I would be very surprised if there was no-one who planned to become an addict.

I am an usher at the 8.00am Mass in my parish. one of my jobs is to direct AA members arriving to their 8.00am meeting held in one of the parish facilities, and at 8.00am on any Sunday morning, there are plenty who seek mutual support.

How much of the help is from the 12 steps, and how much do you think is from having strong, caring and supportive people helping you through the rough days?
Is there even a way to tell the difference?

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EDIT - to add everything between the red lines

 

[Wirraway]

…
The only thing that made me uncomfortable at first about the 12 steps was the idea of a Higher Power and turning to God “as we understood him.” …

many people seek help from AA when they reach bottom. and the bottom can be a real bad place. and for an atheist or non-Christian, well, whatever it takes to hold on for another minute, hour, day. this is not a theology class.

 

[Wirraway]

I didn’t mean to cut you out, please feel free to contribute. The reason I wanted to encourage people who had no experience to contribute was that I know how convinced I was before I started really looking into AA.

Looked at from outside the church of AA, there seems to be no difference which god you use, as long as you worship it the way they say (such as ‘humbly asking’ and expecting him to intervene and remove your shortcomings.)

you simply must get a grip on at least a basic understanding of addiction and programs like AA before trashing it. AA is not a church, no one is worshipping it.

 

[_A]

you simply must get a grip on at least a basic understanding of addiction and programs like AA before trashing it. AA is not a church, no one is worshipping it.

AA is a religious organization. You don’t have to believe me, you could just consider that the US courts which have considered it have decided that it is.
As to what kind of church it is, well, what do they worship?
They don’t think their ‘Higher Power’ can save them, they would not fear taking a drink if they really believed in their higher power. What is more powerful than even their higher power, I wonder?

 

[Seeker_Of_Truth]

many people seek help from AA when they reach bottom. and the bottom can be a real bad place. and for an atheist or non-Christian, well, whatever it takes to hold on for another minute, hour, day. this is not a theology class.

Exactly. That is what I began to realize as I got more involved with the program.

 

[Wirraway]

AA is a religious organization. You don’t have to believe me, you could just consider that the US courts which have considered it have decided that it is.
As to what kind of church it is, well, what do they worship?
They don’t think their ‘Higher Power’ can save them, they would not fear taking a drink if they really believed in their higher power. What is more powerful than even their higher power, I wonder?

AA is NOT a religion or a religious organization per court decisions. it it is a religious based treatment program, see, (slip opinon, minor corrections before publication*Inouye v. Kemna *) a federal appellate court decision that discusses case precedent.

its now apparent to me that you neither understand what addiction is or how 12 step programs work or even what they are, nor will you take even a minimal amount of time to review areas where you misinterpret AA policies. since I’ve asked and you haven’t responded, I’m also fairly certain you don’t have any personal experience with an addict of any kind.

normally, I’d just give up on this kind of one sided debate, but I’m not inclined to give you a free run at trashing this institution.

 

[Seeker_Of_Truth]

The example I have is that some people living with dependancy will choose to stay ‘clean and sober’ for a meeting such as a court date, or a sentencing hearing. This may demonstrate only the slightest bit of power over alcohol, but power it is, falsifying the first step.

For an addict, white-knuckling it through will power does not work for very long. That is why stopping is the easy thing to do but not staying stopped. Only after an addict surrenders does there seem to be any real progress. Also, there are some who cannot stay ‘clean and sober’ even for a court date or sentencing hearing. Such is sadly the case for some.

Then how is it that so many manage their lives?

Again, many can manage their lives in areas not related to their addiction. For example, I could manage myself extremely well when it came to my class work, and I ended up being the top student in my department (just stating this as an example). However, when it came to my addiction, I was a wreck, and nothing I did seemed to work. Through time it began to affect other areas of my life, such as relationships, so because of my addiction those areas where beginning to become unmanageable. Luckily, I was able to recognize I had a problem and join SA to get help, but to some this steady decline causes them to reach “rock bottom,” as it is called, where all aspects of one’s life seem to come crashing down.

I had an ‘addiction’ for 20 years. I went to a doctor, who prescribed a medication, which I took as directed, never ONCE pretending that I was powerless or that there was an invisible man in the sky was going to ‘beam’ me strength somehow.

Congratulations! I’m very glad that you were able to get better. Your putting the addiction in quotation marks seems to suggest though that you don’t think you had an addiction. Perhaps you really didn’t, but I don’t know the details, so I don’t know. I know of someone in my group who is taking medication and it is helping, but it wasn’t the answer. He is still struggling with the addiction.

It sounds more to me like you have had good support in the form of your social group (church) and your own willingness to stop. If you think this ‘Higher Power’ is so much better than you, how is it that some people quit drinking on their own, and some in AA (the vast majority of those who try it) fail again and again to maintain their stated goal of abstinence?

“That may be true of certain nonalcoholic people, who, though drinking foolishly and heavily at the present time, are able to stop or moderate, because their brains and bodies have not been damaged as ours were. But the actual or potential alcoholic, with hardly an exception, will be absolutely unable to stop drinking on the basis of self-knowledge. This is a point we wish to emphasize and re-emphasize, to smash home upon our alcoholic readers as it has been revealed to us through bitter experience.” AA book, page 39.

It could be that those who can stop are heavy drinkers but not alcoholics. Those who are in AA and that fail and fail again are learning to live a new way of life. It took them years to get where they were. It is not unreasonable that it will take them a while to get out of it.

As a side note, my dad, who was a heavy drinker for mostly his whole life, suddenly quick one day and has not touched alcohol for two years. I’m aware of these cases, and wish that there would be more of these.

So it would seem that there would be, according to your hypothesis, no chance for an atheist to overcome an addiction, is that correct?
Admitting there is a god doesn’t really make one exist, except in the imagination of believers

From what I have seen, it is apparently very important for the person to believe in a power greater than himself to get well, even if this greater power is the group itself or even the chip system. There are three steps to steps two (step two being “came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity”): 1) we came, 2) we came to, and 3) we came to believe. As long as the person is willing and has an open mind and heart, I believe it is possible to find healing. As the person begins to open himself more to God, I believe healing comes faster, and from the experiences gathered in 12 steps programs, this seems to be true. It’s a process, one that requires patience.

As a side note, admitting there isn’t a god doesn’t really make one not exist, except in the imagination of the non-believer.

Are you sure? How can you be sure? There are people who flirt with death in any number of kooky ways, and being ‘an addict’ has been romanticized often enough by the media that I would be very surprised if there was no-one who planned to become an addict.

I, for one, didn’t plan it. In fact, it took me a while to come to grips with the fact that I WAS an addict.

A, I hope that my responses have been somewhat helpful. I am not an expert in addictions. I am still learning every day, and there is still much to be learned. I would like to mention too that I am not a spokesman for SA nor AA. I am an addict in recovery who is trying to explain this as best he can. But, again, I hope some of this was helpful.

God bless!

Seeker

 

[Seeker_Of_Truth]

Also, may I suggest that you pick up a copy of the AA book? That may clear up some of your confusions. It certainly did for me.

Seeker

 

[Seeker_Of_Truth]

If one was truly powerless, one would drink oneself to death, every time.

Every time? So if the person passes out from drinking, he should somehow snap out of it through his sheer powerlessness to drink some more until he dies? Sadly though there are the sad cases where alcoholics HAVE drank themselves to their deaths, or to the asylum. If an alcoholic cannot stop, these two options are very *real *possibilities.

Peace!

Seeker

 

[Ruthie]

Atheists in AA are encouraged to make the group, or AA as a whole, their “higher power.” The important thing to remember is that the individual is not his/her own higher power.

I know two atheists with more than 20 years of sobriety through AA.

I also know one atheist in a program called, I think, “Rational Recovery.” He has yet to put more than a couple of months of sobriety together. (To be fair, the same can be said for many in AA, too.)

The stats indicate that 99+ percent of alcoholics who recover do so through the program of Alcoholics Anonymous. I am very sorry, I’m having a memory malfunction and I can’t remember the book I got that from, which cites the source. If I remember, I’ll come back and cite it.

Ruthie

 

[marietta]

I went through outpatient treatment in Texas in July and August of 1984. At that time I was given this statistic:

Out of every 1,000 people, 100 are alcoholic. Of those, 97 are of the working-stiff variety, three are skid-row types. Of the 100, three to four will seek sobriety through Alcoholics Anonymous. Of those, two to three will remain sober.

Resist the temptation to gloat over the “failure” of AA to keep people sober. Instead, cheer for the “two to three” - they are the miracles of recovery and have stayed sober against all odds.

The alcoholic is allergic to a substance to which he or she is addicted. Imagine that. When I was drinking I could drive like a NASCAR star. I could shoot pool better than any man in the room. I was a guitar-slinging woman in a male-dominated world and I became tough and impenetrable. When I quit drinking I weighed 128 pounds and was putting down a quart of vodka a day, and that was just the vodka. This did not include the wine with meals, the eye-openers, or the prescription and non-prescription drugs. I was fearful when I went into AA - fearful that I was a lost cause and could not recover. It took me a long time to understand the concept of a "loving God’ as referred to in the Twelve Traditions, as all my life as a cradle Catholic, all I had to refer to was a score-keeping God. I had a lot to unlearn before I could embrace God, fellowship and sobriety. And here I am, over 24 years later, sober one day at a time and grateful even for the very, very bad days (and there are some).

Anyone who wants to take on AA is fighting a losing battle. It works if you work it. If you don’t, then I would say you don’t want sobriety in any form. And if you’re not a drunk, why must you try to understand or undermine it? The semantics game when discussing AA is vapor, in my opinion. I’ve got the goods right here, because I am one of the blessed “two to three”. You want to know what it’s all about? Honesty. Openmindedness. Willingness: this is HOW we do it.

If you can’t meet these criteria, A, game over. Oh, and by the way, one can only drink oneself to death once, otherwise it’s a cabaret act for the MGM Grand in Vegas.

marietta

 

[_A]

its now apparent to me that you neither understand what addiction is or how 12 step programs work or even what they are,

I was just looking at the first step, so far. Is there some reason you are offended that someone would suggest revising a 70-year-old treatment program?
If you get cancer, will you go for a treatment from the 30’s, unaltered and unalterable, or do you think you would go to a modern doctor?

nor will you take even a minimal amount of time to review areas where you misinterpret AA policies. since I’ve asked and you haven’t responded, I’m also fairly certain you don’t have any personal experience with an addict of any kind.

I have answered quite clearly, and if you had read some of my posts instead of letting your knee jerk, you would have known that.

normally, I’d just give up on this kind of one sided debate, but I’m not inclined to give you a free run at trashing this institution.

Do you have reason to suspect that a rational look such as I suggest would be ‘trashing this institution’?

For an addict, white-knuckling it through will power does not work for very long. That is why stopping is the easy thing to do but not staying stopped. Only after an addict surrenders does there seem to be any real progress. Also, there are some who cannot stay ‘clean and sober’ even for a court date or sentencing hearing. Such is sadly the case for some.

Then reduced power would be the more accurate way to say it than powerless, wouldn’t you say?

Again, many can manage their lives in areas not related to their addiction. For example, I could manage myself extremely well when it came to my class work, and I ended up being the top student in my department (just stating this as an example). However, when it came to my addiction, I was a wreck, and nothing I did seemed to work. Through time it began to affect other areas of my life, such as relationships, so because of my addiction those areas where beginning to become unmanageable. Luckily, I was able to recognize I had a problem and join SA to get help, but to some this steady decline causes them to reach “rock bottom,” as it is called, where all aspects of one’s life seem to come crashing down.

So less manageable would be more accurate than ‘unmanageable’. That seems to be the whole point, if the person would carry out their management plan, they would be successful.

Congratulations! I’m very glad that you were able to get better. Your putting the addiction in quotation marks seems to suggest though that you don’t think you had an addiction.

Well ‘addiction’ is a useless word, I would prefer something a little more descriptive.
How many ‘addicts’ are self-diagnosed? Are every one of those diagnosis accurate?

Perhaps you really didn’t, but I don’t know the details, so I don’t know. I know of someone in my group who is taking medication and it is helping, but it wasn’t the answer. He is still struggling with the addiction.

If he stops drinking he will likely stay in AA. If he continues you are less likely to see him often. This gives the observer (you or I attending regular AA meetings) the impression that many are helped by AA, even if the spontaneous remission rate is higher than the success rate of AA.

As a side note, my dad, who was a heavy drinker for mostly his whole life, suddenly quick one day and has not touched alcohol for two years. I’m aware of these cases, and wish that there would be more of these.

This really makes it look a little shaky to make a ridiculous generalization like ‘alcoholics (who by the way are mainly self-diagnosed) are powerless over alcohol’. It just takes one example to make the statement plainly false.

From what I have seen, it is apparently very important for the person to believe in a power greater than himself to get well, even if this greater power is the group itself or even the chip system. There are three steps to steps two (step two being “came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity”): 1) we came, 2) we came to, and 3) we came to believe. As long as the person is willing and has an open mind and heart, I believe it is possible to find healing. As the person begins to open himself more to God, I believe healing comes faster, and from the experiences gathered in 12 steps programs, this seems to be true. It’s a process, one that requires patience.

Too bad that no matter which god they pick in AA, it doesn’t seem to affect the success rate.

Atheists in AA are encouraged to make the group, or AA as a whole, their “higher power.” The important thing to remember is that the individual is not his/her own higher power.

I know two atheists with more than 20 years of sobriety through AA.

I also know one atheist in a program called, I think, “Rational Recovery.” He has yet to put more than a couple of months of sobriety together. (To be fair, the same can be said for many in AA, too.)

The stats indicate that 99+ percent of alcoholics who recover do so through the program of Alcoholics Anonymous. I am very sorry, I’m having a memory malfunction and I can’t remember the book I got that from, which cites the source. If I remember, I’ll come back and cite it.

Ruthie

If you would care to cite the source, we can look at it.

 

[Wirraway]

Seeker owns the OP in this discussion, there’s nothing to add except to encourage readers to pay attention to someone who has been there.

the problem with the OP is not so much that he doesn’t understand AA, its that he doesn’t understand addiction.

horse/water.

 

[Tonks40]

Seeker owns the OP in this discussion, there’s nothing to add except to encourage readers to pay attention to someone who has been there.

the problem with the OP is not so much that he doesn’t understand AA, its that he doesn’t understand addiction.

horse/water.

Agreed.

 

[geezerbob]

Asking only people with no connection to AA to comment in this thread makes about as much sense as asking a group of ditch diggers to join a discussion on quantum physics. Garbage in, garbage out, and the first post is most certainly garbage to those of us who have been there, done that, and have the scars and the tee shirt to prove it.

What I would like to see is for the OP to come clean about the real reason he is attacking AA other than to show how smart he is. People who are in no way connected with AA or affected by anyone who is would have no reason to go on a rant like this.

There are a kazillion good adages floating around AA, and one that seems to be appropriate here is “Don’t analyze, utilize.” Methinks the OP doth protest too much.

 

[Seeker_Of_Truth]

Then reduced power would be the more accurate way to say it than powerless, wouldn’t you say?

With each and every acting out, the person loses more of his or her power over the substance. In a sense, the person is adding one more chain between himself and the substance, until, one day, he is so entangled he cannot get out of the mess that he created. Once he reaches this point, he is addicted, “is hooked and cannot stop.” There was a point when he could have “untangled” himself before it got out of the hand through his own will. When I think of addict, I think of someone who no longer is in this position. Who, in fact, is powerless to get out of it.

So less manageable would be more accurate than ‘unmanageable’. That seems to be the whole point, if the person would carry out their management plan, they would be successful.

Yet that is the whole point. A person who is addicted CAN’T carry out their management plan successfully alone and without help. If he can, then he probably isn’t as addicted (if at all) as those who end up in AA like programs, and thank God for that! From what I’ve seen, an addict’s life does not become unmanageable over night. It becomes less and less manageable until it is no longer manageable. Just like he has less power over it until he becomes powerless. And that’s the scary thing: it is a stealthy process, one that a person might not realize is taking place until it is to late to stop it alone.

Well ‘addiction’ is a useless word, I would prefer something a little more descriptive.

A word is only useless if we don’t know its meaning or how to apply it. I think this whole thread may boil down to how we understand an ‘addict.’ The way I understand it is that it is someone who has a physical or psychological need for a habit-forming substance and who is powerless over it. He or she can benefit much from a program like AA. For some, it was their only way out of it.

How many ‘addicts’ are self-diagnosed?

I don’t know.

Are every one of those diagnosis accurate?

Since I haven’t had a chance to look at every single case, and since I am not an addiction expert, I will have to say (again) that I don’t know. But my guess is that, no, not every diagnosis is accurate.

If he stops drinking he will likely stay in AA. If he continues you are less likely to see him often. This gives the observer (you or I attending regular AA meetings) the impression that many are helped by AA, even if the spontaneous remission rate is higher than the success rate of AA.

There are those who have not been able to stop, and* for that reason, *they keep coming back to the meetings. Do some drop out frustrated? Sure. But to generalize that those who continue drinking are seen less often is not entirely accurate.

This really makes it look a little shaky to make a ridiculous generalization like ‘alcoholics (who by the way are mainly self-diagnosed) are powerless over alcohol’. It just takes one example to make the statement plainly false.

If you would care to cite the source, we can look at it.

Too bad that no matter which god they pick in AA, it doesn’t seem to affect the success rate.

If you would care to cite the source, we can look at it.

Peace!

Seeker