If you have a good, solid relationship with God... help me

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cardenio

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I strongly recommend not reading what I post here. For your sake, I don’t want you to get stuck in the same problem I have. Please, only read on if you DEFINITELY have a good, solid relationship with God that isn’t going anywhere.

This is the way my obsession with reason has ruined (hopefully temporarily) my life:

God is God and God creates the world, including a system of logic and morality. It would be equally simple for God to create a world with a completely different set of logic and morality. Therefore, the only reason right is right is because God said so. Then I get mad because why does God get to say so and I don’t? Not fair. Why couldn’t I be a perfect, omnicient, omnipotent being?

I’ve diagnosed myself with hubris. Can somebody write me a prescription?
 
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cardenio:
I strongly recommend not reading what I post here. For your sake, I don’t want you to get stuck in the same problem I have. Please, only read on if you DEFINITELY have a good, solid relationship with God that isn’t going anywhere.

This is the way my obsession with reason has ruined (hopefully temporarily) my life:

God is God and God creates the world, including a system of logic and morality. It would be equally simple for God to create a world with a completely different set of logic and morality. Therefore, the only reason right is right is because God said so. Then I get mad because why does God get to say so and I don’t? Not fair. Why couldn’t I be a perfect, omnicient, omnipotent being?

I’ve diagnosed myself with hubris. Can somebody write me a prescription?
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You do get to say wether something is right or wrong. It just works out that if your “right” is God’s “wrong” you get to spend eternity seperated from Him.

If you wish to sit with Him, LET GO, and live the blessed life he gave you.

I understand your dilema, but in all things there can be only ONE first. If I win the race, you can’t be first. If you love and marry the person I love- I cannot marry that person too. It sounds like you also have a bad case of the ENVY. Do you have other areas of your life where you find yourself envying other’s positions?(rhetorical question- just for your thought benefit.)

Maybe use this pent up energy to become one of God’s warriors for the Faith.

I will pray for your clarity in this matter. May God speed.
 
Here’s how I handle this one:

Do I really want to be God? I mean really? To have to know everything, to live forever. I mean, we as humans have the hope that when we die, there will be this heaven on the other end that’s beyond imagining. God on the other hand, he doesn’t have that. He just has to hang out for all eternity… I mean, the game of creation might be a little entertaining, but for an eternity? Poor God!

And then when you take into account how much he loves all of us, all of his creation, to the point that he became part of creation and died for it… and then to see it all reject him, sin against him, blaspheme against him… to have your own created beloved turn against you, to live with that for an eternity… My poor, sweet God.

So sure, he defines the universe. But with great power also comes the price of that power. I for one am happy in my limited ability, to know that no matter what, God has created for me an ultimate happiness, and the ability to serve him. To know that I don’t have to control everything.

Josh
 
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cardenio:
I strongly recommend not reading what I post here. For your sake, I don’t want you to get stuck in the same problem I have. Please, only read on if you DEFINITELY have a good, solid relationship with God that isn’t going anywhere.

This is the way my obsession with reason has ruined (hopefully temporarily) my life:

God is God and God creates the world, including a system of logic and morality. It would be equally simple for God to create a world with a completely different set of logic and morality. Therefore, the only reason right is right is because God said so. Then I get mad because why does God get to say so and I don’t? Not fair. Why couldn’t I be a perfect, omnicient, omnipotent being?

I’ve diagnosed myself with hubris. Can somebody write me a prescription?
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I don’t know that hubris is a bad thing if it makes us ask these types of questions. There is no question too nervey to approach the divine with. It is precisely these types of questions that shake us out of our stupors and get us to confront the divine. This is where the relationship takes place, when we come face to face with the divine and open ourselves up to the truth.

I think it is great to ask these questions here, but I also urge you to take them “to the top” so to speak.

I have some ideas about these things, but it is so much better if you find them for yourself.

cheddar
 
Cardenio,

You are blessed to be asking such questions and to be feeling so out of sorts about it. It’s the beginning of your spiritual journey - yours completely - not the one your parents put you on, but the one you choose to see through to the end.

My son, at 15 got really angry about the God thing…it annoyed him that God was ‘playing’ with us for his own recreation…relating Life to the SIMS games (have you ever played that?)

I remember him sitting on the couch, his hand stretch out before him saying, “This is **my **hand. I decide to make it move. My brain, my mind directs my actions. God gave them to me. Fine. So be it. Now I want to do with it what I will” :whacky:

I reminded him that God did not give him the gift of life for his own pleasure. He gave it to him to serve HIM - to do HIS will on earth FOR Him. OUR job on earth is to figure out what that purpose is so we can do it.

He cringed at the “Serve” part, didn’t think it was fair. I reminded him it wasn’t fair for Jesus either…that he had to endure the brutality He did so you and I can have a chance to live in Heaven with Him - all because Adam and Eve took on the same attitude he was displaying at the time. Have we not learned anything from the story of the Fall and the Resurrection???

God is not asking us to do anything He hasn’t already done Himself. What more could you possibly ask for from any god, let alone THE God. Can you think of any other god out there who would allow him/herself to be born into this world to live this life and be brutalized in that manner just for us???

Cardenio, God made you in His image.
There is nothing you can experience in this life that God hasn’t already - joy, sorrow, anguish, pain, ecstacy.
You are God on Earth for He lives within you, works through you - if you let Him. Why hold yourself back from experiencing this?

You have to remember that you are living in a temporal life - the laws of nature/physics constricts us from reaching our soul’s full potential. But after we’ve died - if we’ve lived our lives according to God’s will - then the limits are removed and we can experience it all.

The Lee Strobel books helped my son quite a bit as did books by C.S. Lewis. Within a year he has turned himself around to fully embrace being a soldier for Christ.

Here’s a list of the Strobel books. The student editions are short and to the point. You can move up to the full editions later, if you want more details (keep in mind he is Christian but not Catholic…there is one section in particular where this becomes evident - savlation - but everything else was rather on the mark with Catholic teaching):

The Case for Faith, The Case for Christ

The C.S. Lewis books our priest and psychologist recommended were:

Mere Christianity, The Screwtape Letters, and The Four Loves

And, yes, he read them all and says it really made a difference. 😉
 
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YinYangMom:
Cardenio,
…
You are God on Earth for He lives within you, works through you - if you let Him. Why hold yourself back from experiencing this?
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Wow- right to the heart of the matter!

Beautifully stated, and I hope that helps you Cardenio!

I concur on the literature recommended by YinYangMom too.

👍 👍
 
Shiann -
You do get to say wether something is right or wrong. It just works out that if your “right” is God’s “wrong” you get to spend eternity seperated from Him.
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This makes it sound like an irrational bribe.

I think you’re right about envy, too.

threej_lc - Yes, I want to know everything! I’ve been that way since I knew there was stuff to learn. That’s what got me into the whole mess in the first place.

And I don’t see why God would worry about controlling everything, because being omniscient, you automatically know what to do.

YinYangMom -

Wow. You definitely are a mom. You sound a lot like mine.

About the SIMS game - it’s a stupid game and yes, I have played it. But I keep thinking… I don’t get how God created us because he loves us… I keep seeing it as God loves us because he created us. I get really attached to stuff I make, especially if it took me a long time. But again, I guess God loves a lot differently than we do.

I’ve read Mere Christianity and Screwtape Letters. My dad’s got a whole pile of Lewis books; I’ll go check for The Four Loves.

everybody - I know I only said negative stuff in this post but… I think what you said really is going to help (give me time to think on it). So thank you.
 
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cardenio:
I don’t get how God created us because he loves us… I keep seeing it as God loves us because he created us. I get really attached to stuff I make, especially if it took me a long time.
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Hmmmm…that’s a good one.

I think you’re right though…looking at the Creation stories, He made everything (finishing the job with Woman, saving the Best for last) 😉 He saw ‘that it was good’ and on the 7th day He rested. And, yes, I suppose He loved us from that instant on…

But, you, specifically, are a different matter. You, He loved before you were conceived - which is a different question to ponder, isn’t it?
 
cardenio said:
Shiann -

This makes it sound like an irrational bribe.

I think you’re right about envy, too.
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I think YinYangMom has the best handle (so far) on speaking directly to your dilema, but I did want to clarify this point.
You do get to say wether something is right or wrong. It just works out that if your “right” is God’s “wrong” you get to spend eternity seperated from Him.

hmmm… irrational bribe.

It isn’t meant to sound any more irrational than you being envious of God.😉

But truly- YinYangMom had a brilliant comment:

“You are God on Earth for He lives within you, works through you - if you let Him. Why hold yourself back from experiencing this?”

Do you think God is holding Heaven over your head- as a motivation to do His Will? Like a father would hold the promise of the family car for Friday night if his child cleans the garage?

If you do, it seems like you are focused on the “what I have to do” ie clean the garage, and you are not focused on the “what I will earn” ie the car on Friday night.

The father sees lessons in the tasks he gives his growing child. The lessons teach responsibility, and build a sense of “working for something”.

There is a reason why God chose to reveal Himself as a Father- moreover as a “DADDY”. He chose to reveal himself as a protector, and a guide to whom we can turn to- love, and feel loved by.

We have all been guilty of those feelings of insubordination toward our parents.

“Why do they get to tell me what to do?”
“What gives them the right to … when I’m fully capable of deciding on my own?”

But somewhere down the road, (most often when we ourselves become parents) do we begin to understand the complexities of parental love. Again, this is the method that God choose to reveal His love for us.

One can say that the father is using the use of the car as a bribe to get the child to clean the garage. And though it is much more than that; it is a method to influence the child to clean the garage. But it is ALSO a tool to help them realize certain truths as well.

I agree that you seem to be on the right track though, because if you see Heaven as a “bribe” you must see value in it. That is, it must mean something to you to be without Heaven.

Please continue your questioning, and I hope the comments from YinYangMom find a home in your thoughts. They really are very valuable!
 
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cardenio:
I strongly recommend not reading what I post here. For your sake, I don’t want you to get stuck in the same problem I have. Please, only read on if you DEFINITELY have a good, solid relationship with God that isn’t going anywhere.

This is the way my obsession with reason has ruined (hopefully temporarily) my life:

God is God and God creates the world, including a system of logic and morality. It would be equally simple for God to create a world with a completely different set of logic and morality. Therefore, the only reason right is right is because God said so. Then I get mad because why does God get to say so and I don’t? Not fair. Why couldn’t I be a perfect, omnicient, omnipotent being?

I’ve diagnosed myself with hubris. Can somebody write me a prescription?
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Hi, Cardenio,
Code: 
 The reason God gets to say so and we don't is that He is the creator and we are only creatures.  When I was about 21, I tried to create a universe, and discovered I was not as smart as God (only half joking here).  Here's the prescription (which helped me immensely): get a copy of G. K. Chesterton's book "Orthodoxy"; a magnificent work which is also a lot of fun to read.
Good luck and God bless,
Szczebrzeszyn
 
You sound like you are tormented by the Adam and Eve delusion. If I eat from the forbidden tree…I will be as knowledgeable as God. Here’s my advice:
Resist needing to be in charge…Let Go and Let God.
It’s alot easier to unload your burdens on his shoulder. It’s wider, he’s heard everything and he’s awake 24-7.
Consider doing a little eucharistic adoration…go and sit before the tabernacle and spill out your thoughts to him. Get mad, get quiet, get reflective…whatever you need to do and then like Elijah…don’t look for God in the wind, the fire or the earthquake…listen to that tiny whispering sound…that is God.
He listens and responds…but we try to shut him out with our own reasoning, our own demands. We try often to tell God what to do in our lives instead of letting his will be done. That is a challenge for anyone who is in a relationship…particularly one with God.
But the benefits are out of this world. Don’t despair.This may be a life long adventure, or you may have an "“AHA” moment! And when that happens it will be awesome. I guarantee it! It has happened to me over and over again.
And as all things…Pray, pray and pray without ceasing. It will be time well spent! God guarantees it!
 
Faith in God is a special grace given to those who ask for it and ask with an open heart to receive it. Once you receive the gift of faith you will fill no need to question God, you will just believe and accept God and His teachings without question. Pray with an open heart for the gift of faith. God bless
 
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cardenio:
But I keep thinking… I don’t get how God created us because he loves us… I keep seeing it as God loves us because he created us. I get really attached to stuff I make, especially if it took me a long time. But again, I guess God loves a lot differently than we do.
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But like you said, God is omnipotent, omnicient, and eternal. What God knows now he knew before he even began creation. So both statements are true, he loves us because he created us and created us because he loves us.

A book that I have found useful in reconciling reason and faith is The Summa Theologica by St. Thomas Aquinas. Before anyone decides to comment, it is a difficult read, but Aquinas applies logic (the works of Aristotle for instance) to the Catholic faith and validates the faith against objections through logic. Reason, rightly applied, can strengthen our faith. That is part of apolagetics.
 
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cardenio:
God is God and God creates the world, including a system of logic and morality. It would be equally simple for God to create a world with a completely different set of logic and morality. Therefore, the only reason right is right is because God said so.
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Actually, no. Your logic falls apart right at the statement “the only reason right is right is because God said so.” God does not just make up whatever rules He wants. This is a misunderstanding of the nature of God.

God is perfect. His rules come not from some arbitrary choice, but are an expression of His perfect nature. God isn’t anything in particular; He just IS. St. Anselm defines God as “that than which nothing greater can be thought.” God isn’t just a perfect being. He is the definition of perfection. Kinda boggles the mind, doesn’t it?

Anyway–God, in His perfection, cannot sin. He cannot break His own rules. He cannot make a triangle have four sides, nor can he make 2+2=5. Therefore, when you sin you are not disagreeing with God’s opinion; you are violating an objective Truth that is as much a part of God as your mind is a part of you.

This is all very complex thinking material. I strongly second the above St. Thomas Aquinas reading recommendation. It explains things far better than I can.
 
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cardenio:
God is God and God creates the world, including a system of logic and morality. It would be equally simple for God to create a world with a completely different set of logic and morality. Therefore, the only reason right is right is because God said so. Then I get mad because why does God get to say so and I don’t? Not fair. Why couldn’t I be a perfect, omnicient, omnipotent being?
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a different set of logic, *maybe *(and that’s a very maybe maybe), but morality? as one poster said, the “rules” we have are expressions of God’s nature. a different morality would reflect a different God (or, god).

and yep, the prescribed readings would explain this better than i have.

you also said:
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cardenio:
This is the way my obsession with reason has ruined (hopefully temporarily) my life
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well, i think you have one solution there. obsession over something is not reasonable. :whistle: (sorry, couldn’t resist! 😃 :o)

but seriously, remember that logic is great, but it can only take you so far.

for one, proving that i exist is much harder than might be expected.

we’re praying for you!!!
 
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cardenio:
I strongly recommend not reading what I post here. For your sake, I don’t want you to get stuck in the same problem I have. Please, only read on if you DEFINITELY have a good, solid relationship with God that isn’t going anywhere.

This is the way my obsession with reason has ruined (hopefully temporarily) my life:

God is God and God creates the world, including a system of logic and morality. It would be equally simple for God to create a world with a completely different set of logic and morality. Therefore, the only reason right is right is because God said so. Then I get mad because why does God get to say so and I don’t? Not fair. Why couldn’t I be a perfect, omnicient, omnipotent being?

I’ve diagnosed myself with hubris. Can somebody write me a prescription?
Click to expand...
Just don’t question. Know that whatever doubts you have are wrong. Trust God. He knows what is best for you. We don’t have all the answers but know that God is right. We are like what a baby is to a father. We are just babies with relation to God and will one day see that our rebellion was silly. I think one day, after we die and our souls make it to heaven, we will be perfect as God is perfect. You will be so happy in heaven, such bliss, eternal happiness. No fear of death. No tears. No sadness. Just peace and love and joy. You won’t care if you’re not God himself. You will be content. Trust God. He is not capable of anything that is wrong. God made us. Things are the way they are. Accept the gift of life God gave to you. What if your daughter or son said to you when they were just little (and that is what we are) “I want to be my own boss - I want to do what I want - why do you have the say all the time?” and then proceeded to jump out a ten story window because it seemed like fun. We just do not understand or have the answers yet…but when we do we will be content. I hope I’m not sounding too silly to you. God Bless!
 
cardenio said:

" Yes, I want to know everything! I’ve been that way since I knew there was stuff to learn. That’s what got me into the whole mess in the first place.

And I don’t see why God would worry about controlling everything, because being omniscient, you automatically know what to do."

Be very, very careful. It is natural to want to know “everything” as this is our human nature at the core. This what was addressed in Genesis and why we fell from grace.

Why we fall from grace all the time.

I used to want to know and experience everything, and do you know what? Be careful what you ask for because God will give it to you. But once you have the knowledge, once you’ve eaten of your own personal “forbidden tree”, you can’t spit it out, you can’t take it back and it will poison you for life.

Nietzche (sp?), wrote, “Those who fight monsters must be careful not to become one. For when you stand and look long into the abyss, the abyss also looks into you.”

As much as I abhor most of what he said about…well, everything, I have to say that truer words were never spoken. I have seen things in my life, things that no one should ever see. But I thought I knew better than God and better than those who were close to God, so I reached out and plucked the particular apple of knowledge I thought I wanted.

God gives us free will to decide “right and wrong”, and guess what…“wrong” bites back.

So I will pray for you on your journey and pray that you have the wisdom that I did not. Just remember that if you make yourself God and you put yourself above him, be ready for the fall and the fallout of your decisions. You will carry them for life.

Don’t take the journey I did. I wish I could undo what I did in the past and unsee what I have seen, but I can’t. I don’t wish this upon anyone.

God Bless you
 
Poor God, you say? Wha… it’s his fault! He shoulda seen it coming.

Also - God can break his own rules. If he can’t he’s not omnipotent. He just doesn’t break his rules for our sake. The old “Can God make a rock so big he can’t lift it?” question got me to there. Yes, God can make this rock. And he can lift it without being capable of doing so. Being omnipotent, he can screw with logic how he wants. But he won’t because he loves us.

I have this distorted hunger for knowledge that I know I can’t quench. And I know I shouldn’t. A lot of the stuff I know I wish I didn’t know.

I know I’m in Adam and Eve’s situation. I’m running around the garden devouring everything like a maniac. Stuffing my face with fruit. I know that one of the trees is forbidden but I’m blinded by this absolute hunger and I need to stop it before I get where I’m not supposed to.

I know what I need to do; I just don’t know how to do it. And I can’t translate my analogy back to my life.

But for Grace - I’m 16 years old. I can’t read the Summa. (I did try, though.)
 
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cardenio:
I have this distorted hunger for knowledge that I know I can’t quench. And I know I shouldn’t. A lot of the stuff I know I wish I didn’t know.

I know I’m in Adam and Eve’s situation. I’m running around the garden devouring everything like a maniac. Stuffing my face with fruit. I know that one of the trees is forbidden but I’m blinded by this absolute hunger and I need to stop it before I get where I’m not supposed to.
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Perhaps begin with recognizing you really don’t know all that you think you do.

Being only 16, you think you know a lot of stuff you wish you didn’t…but what you know is a lot of facts, figures, details. What you lack, through no fault of your own, is reason - the overall big picture. That comes with maturity, with time, with Grace.

I thought I knew a whole heck of a lot of stuff at your age.
Heck, my son thought he had it all figured out as well, devoured books, movies, left and right - and not just mainstream ones, the obsure, heavy, thought-provoking kind.

Yes, you know a lot. But you comprehend and understand just a fraction of it. That’s why you’re feeling frustrated.

It’s ok to want to know a lot.
That wasn’t Adam and Eve’s sin.
The sin was believing they knew it all, when in fact, they didn’t.
When they thought they knew as much as God, figured Him out, they didn’t think they needed Him anymore…they were empowered…or so they thought.

Just be cautious that you don’t toss God aside in your pursuit of knowledge or start believing you’re something special because you know so much at such a young age.

Trust me, you really don’t know that much. Experience, loss, anxiety, love, joy, bliss, anger, rage, terror – emotions you’ve yet to experience - introduce more substance to the knowledge we gather along the way of life.

What you know today, will have an entirely different depth of meaning later.

Heck, I’ve known the Creed forever, but it didn’t mean as much to me as it did several years ago.

Every Lent I’d go through the Stations of the Cross. Each time I felt moved, confident I understood the prayers, the significance of each station.

And yet, four years ago I wept uncontrollably at Good Friday service, overwhelmed with the grief of Mary standing at the foot of the cross on which her only Son hung, battered - for ME! I didn’t really know what I thought I knew all along, until that moment…and even now, I know, I still don’t know the depth of that sacrifice. What I experienced was but a sliver of the real significance of that hour.

So, step back, recognize that you ‘know’ a lot, but that there’s a lot more to what you know - yet to be learned…and it will come to you in time. Develop patience.
 
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