If you have free will then

[Sacred_Heart_1]

If you have free will then why don’t you become a perfect sinless being, choosing the right in every thought word and action?

You’re answer may be because of sin but I thought that Jesus washed away all of your sins. 1 John 3: 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin.

But you say you have sin. If you know God and have free will then why do you sin? Do you have the free will to choose the righ in every thought word and action? Why not? Because you have sin?

But whoever is born of God does not sin.

Therefore, how can you say you have free will if you say you are born of God yet you don’t choose the right in every thought word and action?

 

[Buck_Crosswhite]

If you have free will then why don’t you become a perfect sinless being, choosing the right in every thought word and action?

You’re answer may be because of sin but I thought that Jesus washed away all of your sins. 1 John 3: 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin.

But you say you have sin. If you know God and have free will then why do you sin? Do you have the free will to choose the righ in every thought word and action? Why not? Because you have sin?

But whoever is born of God does not sin.

Therefore, how can you say you have free will if you say you are born of God yet you don’t choose the right in every thought word and action?

We aren’t protestants. We know the bible also says a righteous man falls a hundred times a day. Protestants find one verse in the bible and then try to build a theology around it. We don’t.
All we can do is think about our actions prior to acting and do our best to do everything for the glory of God.

 

[Joseph_LaMothe]

1. Free will also lets you choose bad. I may know its wrong to X but want to do so anyways.
2. Original Sin understood in a Catholic way is not an action but a condition. Also called concupiscence. It is our predilection, addiction, weakness for sin. In this way our Free Will is limited. The idea of Mary’s Immaculate conception is so that she can be like Eve and have perfect Free Will. But, unlike Eve, she chose to obey.
3. Freedom is not doing anything. We cannot fly. We cannot turn into water. We cannot walk trough walls. We still claim free will, so what do we mean? CCC1733 "…There is no true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. The choice to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to “the slavery of sin.”

 

[Sacred_Heart_1]

We aren’t protestants. We know the bible also says a righteous man falls a hundred times a day. Protestants find one verse in the bible and then try to build a theology around it. We don’t.
All we can do is think about our actions prior to acting and do our best to do everything for the glory of God.

So which is it a righteous man falls a hundred times a day or everyone born of God does not sin? You can’t have both verses be valid while contradicting eachother. It’s the way hypocrites speak.

I bet you pick the one that says a righteous man falls a hundred times a day in order to justify your sin. You’ll say that the other one is valid too but you’ll never perceive the contradiction in your mind because you would rather justify your sin with the former.

You do your best for God and yet you say you have free will. If you knew the son, you would know yourself and choose the right in every thought word and action. But since you do not know yourself you do not know your wrong and you say you have free will. If you knew God you would not commit evil, not even in your own thoughts. But you justify it within yourself because you do not perceive the evil that is inside you. If you saw the evil that was inside of you you would be terrified and turn to God. But you cannot perceive because you do not know yourself and neither do you know God because if you knew God you would know yourself because God reveals yourself to you. You can only change yourself if you know yourself. Yet, you say you do all this and say that you are aware, however, you deceive only yourself because you your sin remains because you are unwilling to know God or yourself.

 

[Sacred_Heart_1]

1. Free will also lets you choose bad. I may know its wrong to X but want to do so anyways.
2. Original Sin understood in a Catholic way is not an action but a condition. Also called concupiscence. It is our predilection, addiction, weakness for sin. In this way our Free Will is limited. The idea of Mary’s Immaculate conception is so that she can be like Eve and have perfect Free Will. But, unlike Eve, she chose to obey.
3. Freedom is not doing anything. We cannot fly. We cannot turn into water. We cannot walk trough walls. We still claim free will, so what do we mean? CCC1733 "…There is no true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. The choice to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to “the slavery of sin.”

But I thought you had the Son. If you have free will and you know God then you choose the good in everything; otherwise if you choose the bad you do not have the Son and therefore no free will. Someone with free will, that knows God, will choose the right in every thought word and action. Jesus even tells us that none can pry them out of my Father’s hand. If you know God and choose evil then effectively you are saying that you were pried out of the Father’s hand. When in fact you were never in the Father’s hand since none can be pried from his hand. Everyone who knows Jesus does good not evil. If you do evil you do not know Jesus. If you do not know Jesus then you do not know yourself because Jesus reveals yourself to yourself. One cannot change unless one knows themself. If you see yourself on the inside then you would see all the sin that is on the inside and knowing Jesus you would cleanse that sin from yourself. Rather, you hold onto your sin and never change because you do not know yourself because you do not know God. And I know this because you say that you have sin and have not purged yourself of your sin.

Original sin is washed away in baptism. It does not remain.

Freedom is choosing the right in every thought word and action. Those who do not choose the right in everything have no free will. We gain our free will through Jesus Christ.

 

[Trishie]

You could ask the question of St Paul, but he has already written:

I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong." 2 Corinthians 12 7-10

And Mark wrote in his Gospel:

"Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."Mark 14:38

St Therese of Lisieux, a Doctor of the Church, wrote:

Saint Therese of Lisieux encourages us in our attempts towards holiness in our vocation to love and serve. Of her own response to the call, she wrote, “This desire could certainly appear daring if one were to consider how weak and imperfect I was, and how after seven years in the religious life, I am still weak and imperfect. I always feel, however, the same bold confidence of becoming a great saint because I do not count on my own merits since I have none, but I trust in God who is Virtue and Holiness. God alone, content with my weak efforts, will raise me to Himself and make me a saint, clothing me in His infinite merits. I didn’t think then that one had to suffer very much to reach sanctity, but God was not long in showing me this was so and in sending me the trials I have already mentioned.”

In response to a novice who was discouraged by her faults, Therese said, “You make me think of a little child that is learning to stand but does not know how to walk. In his desire to reach to top of the stairs to find his mother, he lifts his little foot to climb the first step. It is all in vain, and at each renewed effort he falls.” “Well, be like that little child. Always keep lifting your foot to climb the ladder of holiness, and do not imagine that you can mount even the first step. All God asks of you is good will. From the top of the ladder, He looks lovingly upon you, and soon, touched by your fruitful efforts, He will Himself come down, and taking you in His arms, will carry you to His Kingdom never again to leave Him. But should you cease to raise your foot, you will be left for long on the earth.”
To another, Therese said, “You want to climb the mountain, whereas God wishes you to descend it. He is awaiting you in the valley of humility.”

 

[Joseph_LaMothe]

Forget looking through the whole Bible, in the same letter of 1 John we here:

“If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us. My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.” (1 John 1:8 - 1 John 2:1)

1 John 3:6 “No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.”
1 John 4:12 “No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.”

You assume that you know what “born of God” means. That it is obvious and can mean one thing only. What is that? Baptism? Conversion? Confirmation? Death and admission to Heaven? Metaphor for State of Grace? (Two of those could be literally true with the 100 times quote.) If I knew what you think born of God is it would be easier to respond.

Also, does a righteous man fall 100 times a day? No, not each righteous man is that clumsy. Obviously there is a correct and incorrect way to understand this passage. One leads to error. One leads to understanding.

You are miss-reading 1 John 3:9 in a similar way. An exaggeration used as a pedagogy to motivate.

 

[Joseph_LaMothe]

… I know this because you say that you have sin and have not purged yourself of your sin.

Original sin is washed away in baptism. It does not remain.

Freedom is choosing the right in every thought word and action. Those who do not choose the right in everything have no free will. We gain our free will through Jesus Christ.

I have sinned, repented, and purged.

The effects of original sin, namely concupiscence remain after baptism according the the Church. It is a state of being.

All or nothing? Those who do some good do they not have some free will? And by that I mean an imperfect and limited will. Which is what people have. We are limited in many ways. Knowledge for instance. What if an event has a negative unforeseen outcome? We chose this not out of evil but ignorance.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

So which is it a righteous man falls a hundred times a day or everyone born of God does not sin? You can’t have both verses be valid while contradicting eachother. It’s the way hypocrites speak.

I bet you pick the one that says a righteous man falls a hundred times a day in order to justify your sin. You’ll say that the other one is valid too but you’ll never perceive the contradiction in your mind because you would rather justify your sin with the former.

Couple of problems right here.

1. You cannot discard parts of scripture because you don’t like them. If you think there is a contradiction, then your interpretation is wrong. All of Scripture is true.
2. You are fixating on a very small slice of Scripture. We don’t do that. We read the whole taking the whole into account.
3. You assume that when we say all people sin, we say that that somehow justifies sin. That is WRONG. Nothing justifies sin.

Let me repeat that. Nothing justifies sin. Sin is our own free choice and it is despicable.

This is why we Catholics say that Mortal Sin severs our relationship with God - in your words, makes us no longer righteous, I suppose - until it is healed through the Sacrament of Reconciliation. And the fact that God knows that we will continue to sin is why we have that sacrament.

You do your best for God and yet you say you have free will. If you knew the son, you would know yourself and choose the right in every thought word and action. But since you do not know yourself you do not know your wrong and you say you have free will. If you knew God you would not commit evil, not even in your own thoughts.

Are you trying to deny free will? Or to deny that humans know God? Or to attack orthodox Catholics personally? It’s hard to see your point.

You may want to read up on original sin. The rest of your post seems to be a repeat of what you said above, but what you fail to take into account is that we are damaged creatures. We do not have perfect knowledge of anything. We do not have perfect reason. Even when we do reason correctly off of true knowledge, we have the choice to do something else. Sinning is suppressing any desire we may or may not have to follow God with other desires.

When we do this, it is entirely our own fault, we have done something despicable, unjustified and unjustifiable, and, depending on the seriousness of the sin, may well have destroyed our relationship with God entirely.

But God will always take us back. Because He’s cool like that.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

Someone with free will, that knows God, will choose the right in every thought word and action.

False. See: Adam. Adam knew God. Adam had free will. Adam chose wrong.

Original sin is washed away in baptism. It does not remain.

But some of the effects do. Think of it like this - we start out as silver. Original sin tarnishes us - that is, it makes a big pit in the silver and fills it full with nasty gunk. Baptism removes the gunk, but leaves the pit.

Original sin is gone with baptism.

Concupiscence, which is different from original sin but was imprinted upon our nature by original sin, remains. See the Catechism.

Freedom is choosing the right in every thought word and action. Those who do not choose the right in everything have no free will. We gain our free will through Jesus Christ.

Not so. Those who choose wrongly have free will, they just abuse it. Those who learn self defense techniques, but use them to attack and rob old ladies still know self defense, they just abuse it.

 

[LilyM]

I think the important part of the OP’s equation is the afterthough ‘If we have free will AND know God …’

In as far as BOTH of these conditions are true, you are correct. But none of us can perfectly know God. As St Paul puts it, in this life we can only ever see through a dark glass. It is only after death that we know ‘even as we are known’ and only after death that we shall truly ’ be like Him’ (ie perfect).

And who is not to say that we are even ‘born of God’ before our deaths anyway? There is. a reason we usually celebrate the feasts of the Saints on the date of their death if known - for we consider it to be their true birthday, when they are reborn into eternal life. For some, this rebirth only happens after a spell in purgatory being purified of whatever imperfections remain.

 

[Lisa44]

If you have free will then why don’t you become a perfect sinless being, choosing the right in every thought word and action?

You’re answer may be because of sin but I thought that Jesus washed away all of your sins. 1 John 3: 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin.

But you say you have sin. If you know God and have free will then why do you sin? Do you have the free will to choose the righ in every thought word and action? Why not? Because you have sin?

But whoever is born of God does not sin.

Therefore, how can you say you have free will if you say you are born of God yet you don’t choose the right in every thought word and action?

Conceivably, if men had free will then they could will themselves to not sin. That is not what the bible says.

However, I am not sure I’m on board with your interpretation of 1 John. Is John saying that believers do not sin?

 

[JDaniel]

If you have free will then why don’t you become a perfect sinless being, choosing the right in every thought word and action?

You’re answer may be because of sin but I thought that Jesus washed away all of your sins. 1 John 3: 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin.

But you say you have sin. If you know God and have free will then why do you sin? Do you have the free will to choose the right in every thought word and action? Why not? Because you have sin?

But whoever is born of God does not sin.

Therefore, how can you say you have free will if you say you are born of God yet you don’t choose the right in every thought word and action?

What Bible is this a quote from? John 3:9 is very different in both of the Bibles that I have access to.

God bless,
jd

 

[Swiss_Guy]

We have free will, but original sin has damaged it so we don’t always see everything clearly. to do so, we need God’s grace. Our tendency to sin from original sin causes us to do somethings we wouldn’t do if we saw everything clearly. Now, everyone born of God doesn’t sin (mortally). If we do, we need to go to confession to regain our salvation. Once we sin, we lose salvation.

 

[preferanonymous]

If you have free will then why don’t you become a perfect sinless being, choosing the right in every thought word and action?

You’re answer may be because of sin but I thought that Jesus washed away all of your sins. 1 John 3: 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin.

But you say you have sin. If you know God and have free will then why do you sin? Do you have the free will to choose the righ in every thought word and action? Why not? Because you have sin?

But whoever is born of God does not sin.

Therefore, how can you say you have free will if you say you are born of God yet you don’t choose the right in every thought word and action?

Because, I think, our freedom does not mean that we do not have the option to choose unreasonable intentions. Consider that someone might know the good, and have the ability to choose it, yet might not always choose it. He might act based on the intention ‘so what if its divine law, why should I follow it?’ This is, I think, nonsense, but that doesn’t mean that one is not free to intentionally act on nonsense at least in some sense (he who commits sin might be the servant of it eventually). One can intentionally act, I might argue, unreasonably and for this reason not choose the right action even if they should. Perfection in a being might imply freedom in the being, but a free being, it seems, need not imply perfect one.

 

[LilyM]

What Bible is this a quote from? John 3:9 is very different in both of the Bibles that I have access to.

God bless,
jd

1 John - as in first letter of John, not the Gospel.

 

[JDaniel]

1 John - as in first letter of John, not the Gospel.

LilyM:

I have the Jerusalem Bible. 1 JOHN 3:9 is as follows:
“No one who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

Sorry, that’s why I asked where you got your translation.

God bless,
jd

 

[JDaniel]

Lily:

And The New American Bible is almost word for word.



God bless,
jd

 

[LilyM]

LilyM:

I have the Jerusalem Bible. 1 JOHN 3:9 is as follows:
“No one who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

Sorry, that’s why I asked where you got your translation.

God bless,
jd

Aah - I’m not sure what translation Sacred Heart is using.

But I think the meaning is clear enough, even if there is the wording of ‘Whoever has been born of God does not sin’ as opposed to ‘No one who has been begotten by God sins’.

It’s a bit like saying ‘Whoever loves you does not hit you’ as opposed to ‘No one who loves you would hit you’. Same diff really.

 

[JDaniel]

Aah - I’m not sure what translation Sacred Heart is using.

But I think the meaning is clear enough, even if there is the wording of ‘Whoever has been born of God does not sin’ as opposed to ‘No one who has been begotten by God sins’.

It’s a bit like saying ‘Whoever loves you does not hit you’ as opposed to ‘No one who loves you would hit you’. Same diff really.

Lily:

But, “begotten” is used of Christ, not the rest of us. The rest of us are “born.”

God bless,
jd