If you knew for a fact that life ceased to exist after death, how would you live your life now?

[seeker57]

The answer to me would be to behave as I behave now. It would not alter my behavior or how I treat people.

Since I don’t believe we have to earn heaven, it relieves me of the duty to be good, so to speak, but not the purpose for being good.

I still should work to help my neighbor, my community, my country, my planet, not because it would benefit me, which I don’t believe, but because it would benefit everyone and is the right thing to do

You might think of it as benign altruism.

Seeker.

 

[mackk]

When fear of wrath is a persons ONLY motivator they resort to deviant behavior behind doors. In America there are laws prohibiting raciest behavior in “public’ life( example :15th amendment off the top of my head) Bigots are still bigots despite the the laws of man or God (love thy neighbor).
the measure of a human cannot be based on what their apparent beliefs are. Is isn’t reasonable to assume that a belief in God will equate to desirable actions. many folks through out history have firmly believed in God and still committed atrocities.
There is a deeper part of the soul, the nature of a person that dictates whether or not they will behave in ways that are of a benefit to humanity. A person who is capable of great kindness is not capable because the bible says be kind or get a “spanking” they are Kind because it is in their very nature.
there is an old folk tale I’ve heard it told many ways but I’ll share the one from my childhood.
A snake is basking in the sun on a rock beside a river when a handsome fox comes trotting along. The snake calls out “FOX, brother how is your day?” The fox stops and replies “Fine and yours mister snake?” The snake responds “Well, it has been alright but it could be better.” Curious the fox responds “How so ?” The snake says “well, this is an okay rock but see that rock over there? it gets much better sun.” the fox says “why not go over there and sun yourself then?” Mister snake replied " Oh, I’m not an amazing swimmer like you are Mister Fox. I could never reach that side of the river, the current would surely sweep me away. Hey, Would you be so kind as to take me across the river Fox?” the fox laughed and said “don’t be funny as soon as i get close to you, you will bite me.” “No , No I won’t, I swear to you that I would be so grateful for this kindness that I would be en-debited to you forever” the snake seemed sincere so the fox gave in and allowed the snake to climb onto his head. When they came near abouts the middle of the river the snake panicked and bit the fox leaving then to both be swept away in the current and drown.
The snake does what is in his nature … and in truth isn’t capable of considering the consequence. that is the way most people are. Any fear of retribution only leads them to hide their nature.

 

[snowflakes]

I can see the point of this being asked in a theology class now. I will drop the philosophy and deal with this from the point of view you have given here.

The natural law being written on our hearts, IMHO, does not affect our free will. The natural law tells us what is right and good, it does not make us do it or influence us to do it.

The golden rule (which can be found in paragraph 1970 of the Catechism) “Whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; this is the law and the prophets.” Now without God existing we would have to drop the last part, “this is the law and the prophets.” because we would have no law from God or prophets from God, but the beginning, do to others as you would have them do to you is written on our hearts. It does not make us do so.

The Scriptures tell us the two greatest commandants, Love the Lord your God and Love your neighbor as yourself. The second one here for me, Love your neighbor as yourself, is just another way to state the golden rule. I have reflected on this through my formation and my pastoral studies classes. So many people do not love themselves so when they treat their neighbors like crud they are “loving” them as they “love” themselves. This is part of our fallen nature.

It is our job as religious and clergy (I believe) to help these people to realize this and to reform their inner lives so that they can express it in their outer lives.

I know I rambled a bit here but I hope you can understand what I am trying to get across.

Thank you very much, I completely understand what you mean. This was very helpful to me, there is just so much to learn and sometimes things get so confusing.

 

[DanteAlighieri]

Not true, there would always be law. There are a lot of atheists in goverment and they create and abide by the law.

You’re missing my point. The fact that we can even be civil to one another is owed entirely to God’s grace. Law and order and all that derives from the fact that God wills for government and civilization to exist. Without God’s will, nothing exists – not government, not society, not even you and me. So, no – we cannot remove God from the equation and still have law, because law is a manifestation of the order God created.

Hypothetically, yes you can remove god from the equation and have law and order. You are going by what god said but hypothetically, if god didn’t exist, then what he said wouldn’t exist so you don’t really know how things would play out with the goverment. Did you know the government is in talks (or was in talks, I don’t know what is going on with that) about removing the “in god we trust” from money ? Church and state is seperated and the goverment is trying to force that more. There will always be laws because even an atheist would want laws to protect themselves from criminals. Law makers don’t want to be killed or stolen from whether they believe in god or not. There are many atheists in goverment that believe in creating and inforcing the law and they don’t even believe in god.

Again, law does not exist because we created it. See above.

If it was true, and law and government existed only because of god, and in your quote "As Christ said, government would have no authority were it not for the fact that God wills it so.
Then it must be god’s will for goverment to protect the rights of woman by giving them the right to choose to have an abortion. So all those prochoicers had the right idea after all after all these years since 1973 when the goverment overturned roe vs wade which is considered the biggest mass murders ever brought to the world in many people’s eyes.

I did not say that all law is just and righteous; I said that the authority of government to create law comes from God. Without God, there is no authority to determine objectively what is right and wrong; with God, we have that authority in the form of duly elected government. That does not mean that every law it creates is virtuous – e.g., the fact that abortion is legal is an abomination.

See why I am saying your statement doesn’t make sense? By the way, I love the way you end your posts with peace, it makes me feel good.

I’m glad to hear that!

Listen, I believe in god, there were years I didn’t but even when I didn’t I still knew right from wrong and I never in a million years would of stole from someone knowing that in some situations I no doubt would of never got caught. So, when I didn’t believe in god, I still would of took a government position and inforced and created laws to help protect my fellow brothers and sisters.

That willingness to adhere to abide by society’s rules and that concern about your “brothers and sisters” is exactly what I’m referring to above when I talk about our ability to be civil to one another coming from God’s grace. He has spoken to your heart and continues to do so, and thus your conscience is guiding your moral choices as well as your inquiry. God’s grace imbues us with a longing for Him; it is alive in some, awakening in others, and asleep in many more, but it is there, and it is the source of ALL the good in this world – including in the attempts man makes to order his world and create just societies. Without God, such order is impossible; we would (as I pointed out in my first post) degenerate into a cesspool of selfish behavior. You see this happening even today; imagine what it would be like if there were no God!

Peace,
Dante

 

[stevealbert99]

So glad you asked this question because I’ve already given it serious thought. My answer is this: It wouldn’t matter what I did, thought or felt about ANYTHING…because one second after my heart stopped beating I wouldn’t remember any of it. You can live for a THOUSAND YEARS, but when you die you can’t remember ANY of what you did. What goood would it be to do ANYTHING if you cannot remember it? A thousand years compared to eternity is LESS than one drop in the world’s ocean. Much less than even that. One divided by infinity is…ZERO. It would be just as if you NEVER existed…and it would REMAIN that way for ALL ETERNITY!

My conclusion is this: The ONLY life that CAN exist is ETERNAL LIFE. Everything else, no matter how “long” it may last, is DEATH.

Thankfully there IS a God. A God of PURE LOVE whom we can behold in the body of Jesus Christ…our ETERNAL LIFE! Otherwise, there is ONLY death.

You didn’t exist for billions of years before now, so why would it matter if you didn’t exist for billions of years after you died?

 

[stevealbert99]

You’re missing my point. The fact that we can even be civil to one another is owed entirely to God’s grace. Law and order and all that derives from the fact that God wills for government and civilization to exist. Without God’s will, nothing exists – not government, not society, not even you and me. So, no – we cannot remove God from the equation and still have law, because law is a manifestation of the order God created.

Again, law does not exist because we created it. See above.

I did not say that all law is just and righteous; I said that the authority of government to create law comes from God. Without God, there is no authority to determine objectively what is right and wrong; with God, we have that authority in the form of duly elected government. That does not mean that every law it creates is virtuous – e.g., the fact that abortion is legal is an abomination.

I’m glad to hear that!

That willingness to adhere to abide by society’s rules and that concern about your “brothers and sisters” is exactly what I’m referring to above when I talk about our ability to be civil to one another coming from God’s grace. He has spoken to your heart and continues to do so, and thus your conscience is guiding your moral choices as well as your inquiry. God’s grace imbues us with a longing for Him; it is alive in some, awakening in others, and asleep in many more, but it is there, and it is the source of ALL the good in this world – including in the attempts man makes to order his world and create just societies. Without God, such order is impossible; we would (as I pointed out in my first post) degenerate into a cesspool of selfish behavior. You see this happening even today; imagine what it would be like if there were no God!

Peace,
Dante

If you are only acting in a just and moral way out of fear of being punished, then that is not true morality. If god is removed from the world, and you start doing immoral things, then you were never truly a moral person.

 

[DanteAlighieri]

If you are only acting in a just and moral way out of fear of being punished, then that is not true morality. If god is removed from the world, and you start doing immoral things, then you were never truly a moral person.

Nobody is a “moral person” of his own ability. It is only by God’s grace that we are able to be so.

Furthermore, if there is no Arbiter of good and evil, everything is subjective. The only reason ANYONE would have for obeying the law is fear of getting in trouble, because there would be no inherent good or bad due to the lack of an objective good – God.

Peace,
Dante

 

[1234]

Lets say, it was a proven fact that there was no god, no after life, no anything. That when we die, the party is over and lights are out.

How would you live your life differently? I know we all (well, for most members on this board) know that this isn’t the case, but what if it was? How would you live your life different or would it be any different than how you live it now?

I’d live it the way I am now.

 

[1234]

You’re missing my point. The fact that we can even be civil to one another is owed entirely to God’s grace. Law and order and all that derives from the fact that God wills for government and civilization to exist. Without God’s will, nothing exists – not government, not society, not even you and me. So, no – we cannot remove God from the equation and still have law, because law is a manifestation of the order God created.

Again, law does not exist because we created it. See above.

I did not say that all law is just and righteous; I said that the authority of government to create law comes from God. Without God, there is no authority to determine objectively what is right and wrong; with God, we have that authority in the form of duly elected government. That does not mean that every law it creates is virtuous – e.g., the fact that abortion is legal is an abomination.

That willingness to adhere to abide by society’s rules and that concern about your “brothers and sisters” is exactly what I’m referring to above when I talk about our ability to be civil to one another coming from God’s grace. He has spoken to your heart and continues to do so, and thus your conscience is guiding your moral choices as well as your inquiry. God’s grace imbues us with a longing for Him; it is alive in some, awakening in others, and asleep in many more, but it is there, and it is the source of ALL the good in this world – including in the attempts man makes to order his world and create just societies. Without God, such order is impossible; we would (as I pointed out in my first post) degenerate into a cesspool of selfish behavior. You see this happening even today; imagine what it would be like if there were no God!
Peace,
Dante

Wrong. * Evolution* favors all animals that are capable of forming tribes, clans and ultimately as in the case of humans, nations. . Highly ordered animals such as wolves, , wild dogs, lions, hyenas and many others thrive because they live in well-ordered packs. Animals that hunt alone are not favored, and many are threatened with extinction–cats in general, especially tigers and cheetahs. Human beings tend to do better in well-organized societies. Those that live in smaller units, which for humans is in clans and tribes, rather than countries, tend to fight amongst themselves, be isolated and not thrive. . Afghanistan is one of these, which has one of the smallest population in the Middle East. This is what hurt the North American tribes. They were relatively small and didn’t cooperate amongst themselves. Those that did cooperate were able to raise formidable opposition to the European invaders.

Evolution, which favors the survival of human beings by their organization of societies, is what favors man’s domination of the earth. Religion has in general been very destructive. Catholics wiped out the Albigensians and Cathars in the South of France, burned many Jews in Spain and Portugal and forced the emigration of the Moors and Jews, the lifeblood of Spain, which led to a centuries-long decline. The Muslims wiped out entire populations of Buddhists when they advanced eastward, and the Sunnis and Shiites are at it today.

 

[stevealbert99]

Nobody is a “moral person” of his own ability. It is only by God’s grace that we are able to be so.

Furthermore, if there is no Arbiter of good and evil, everything is subjective. The only reason ANYONE would have for obeying the law is fear of getting in trouble, because there would be no inherent good or bad due to the lack of an objective good – God.

Peace,
Dante

How is it then that atheists can be moral people? Surely god does not give these graces to people who openly deny him.
You don’t think that we would have figured out not to kill and steal from each other without god?

God is the objective good? what about the god of Islam, who orders Muslims to kill infidels and stone women to death? How is that objective good?

 

[Ichthys4121517]

God is the objective good? what about the god of Islam, who orders Muslims to kill infidels and stone women to death? How is that objective good?

The god of Islam is not the one true God. I thought that was a given, considering this is a Catholic website.

 

[SpectatorX]

I find truly hysterical the posts on the first page that say, basically, “I’d become a master criminal and steal lots of money!”

Such claims depend on the assertion that the only thing currently keeping you from doing such things is your belief in a supernatural entity who will punish you – and not your personal character, your values, your fear of being caught for such actions, your complete ineptitude at theft, or any combination thereof.

Here you address the only matter for which an atheist could consistently give pause when faced with the question “why not?” Personal character has no meaning absent any objective trascendental ideal, and values would be presonal abitration. The only matter which remains would be the possibility of punishment. Therefore, right and wrong would be nothing more than the decree of politicians.

The fact of the matter is that whether or not there’s a god is irrelevant to questions of law and order. Whether there’s a god or not, nobody wants to live in a society where stealing and murder and rape happen all the time, and we all value living in a society where there are safeguards in place for personal privacy and choices and autonomy.

Where one wishes to live is often irrelevant to those living in unfavorable conditions.

As a result, the laws of the land and our systems of crime and punishment are always going to be pretty consistent, regardless of whether or not people believe in gods. Keep in mind that the US government is a secular government – its government is “not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,” to quote the Treaty of Tripoli, signed under John Adams in 1797 – and it still has laws and order like any other country.

On the contrary, the Lockean model of government has not been a historical constant at all. Those without influence and wealth have always been at the mercy of the more materialistically fortunate. The idea of a transcendent good to which even the government is beholden is an obvious outgrowth of the Christian Tradition. What sense, for instance, would be made of innate human rights which supercede any law by a truly atheist philosophy? The lowest common denominator for humane governance therefore is agnosticism, not atheism. An atheism which claims such lacks integrity and robs from Christian Tradition even as it denies it.

Governments – at least secular ones – don’t derive their authority from supernatural beings. They derive their authority from the consent of the governed, from “we the people.” That’s why governments have power and why laws are created and enforced – because of the social contract, not magical beings.

• A social contract which is founded on the belief in an immeasurable equality amongst all persons. Why should such a government heed this contract when it is no longer convenient? By whom would it be held accountable? Who would mete out the punishment for any such wrongs? Should this government police itself?

Well, I happen to not believe in any gods, and I have no problem defining good and evil in ways that are fairly easily understood by others, so methinks you might have to give your position a little more thought here.

I argue that any measurement of good and evil by one who denies the existence of any objective measure is mere arbitration. I do not uderstand how one could hold an arbitrary measure binding on all governments. Why is it wrong to execute citizens without fair trial? Because of human rights? Why do humans have rights? Where are these rights written that all can know them? In the U.S. Constitution - a fungible document written by one govenrment? Perhaps your position needs more thought.

A good start would be studying systems of moral philosophy, including the numerous non-theistic systems of morality.

I posit that “non-theistic system of morality” is an oxymoron.

 

[Warrenton]

Hello,
Chimps also eat their children. The believers in the religion of science tend to ignore “inconvenient” facts.
W.Unland

At least chimps don’t sell their children.

 

[Warrenton]

Wrong. * Evolution* favors all animals that are capable of forming tribes, clans and ultimately as in the case of humans, nations. Those that live in smaller units, which for humans is in clans and tribes, rather than countries, tend to fight amongst themselves, be isolated and not thrive. . Afghanistan is one of these, which has one of the smallest population in the Middle East. QUOTE]

If Afghanistan is so evolutionarily disfavored, why has it sucecssfully resisted the British, Russian and now the American attacks so successfully?

Do viruses form nations?

 

[Warrenton]

This post is fascinating on a number of levels.

I find truly hysterical the posts on the first page that say, basically, “I’d become a master criminal and steal lots of money!”

Such claims depend on the assertion that the only thing currently keeping you from doing such things is your belief in a supernatural entity who will punish you…your complete ineptitude at theft, or any combination thereof.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

How is it then that atheists can be moral people? Surely god does not give these graces to people who openly deny him.
You don’t think that we would have figured out not to kill and steal from each other without god?

Atheists are still human beings and therefore created in the image of God.

While they might not believe in God, He believe in them.

God is the objective good? what about the god of Islam, who orders Muslims to kill infidels and stone women to death? How is that objective good?

It is not a defined dogma that the god of Islam is the same God of the Christians and Jews. Even if he is the same God, the Church teaches that public revelation ended at the death of the last Apostle so the revelation of Islam can not be viewed by Catholics as being binding. It would, at best, be a private revelation and a private revelation can not have the intention of improving public revelation, which I believe Islam thinks.

So while some in the Church may say Muslims worship the same god there are conditions within in Teaching of the Church on that.

Also, some of what Islam does is base off of the hadiths and sharia law, which are not from the Qur’an, but rather are traditions of men.

 

[Anthony_Labella]

This is a question only an athiest can answer. If you believe that the universe, and everything contained in it, is accorded to random chance, luck, natural selection, evolution/adaptation, or whatever terminology is used, then you can comfortably believe that man would have ended up in the same place with or without God. As a believer, the answer is simple, there would be nothing.

 

[LutheranDK]

Lets say, it was a proven fact that there was no god, no after life, no anything. That when we die, the party is over and lights are out.

How would you live your life differently? I know we all (well, for most members on this board) know that this isn’t the case, but what if it was? How would you live your life different or would it be any different than how you live it now?

It can be summed up in one sentence:

“Eat, drink, be merry! For tomorrow we die.”

 

[hxcCatholic413]

Well, I happen to not believe in any gods, and I have no problem defining good and evil in ways that are fairly easily understood by others, so methinks you might have to give your position a little more thought here.

A good start would be studying systems of moral philosophy, including the numerous non-theistic systems of morality.

Well you see your wrong here. You are basing your views on good vs. evil on the society/culture that you live in. How do you know what is good? or evil? by just your own opinion? God created good vs. evil. Whether you believe in the fact that God exists or not he does and the point I made simply proves it. Without a God morality wouldn’t exist and we would have no intelligence whatsoever. Remember if there is no God there wouldn’t be any atheists.

 

[hxcCatholic413]

This is exactly the point I have been trying to make but have been continually blown off for it.

Thank you for putting it into words I was not able to.

.

No problem…I feel like i’ve jumped two grade levels because of this thread. It’s given me a great chance just to think.