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ChesterBeach
Guest
How do you reconcile this with
[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 5:17-18[/BIBLEDRB]
Heaven and Earth have not passed.
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[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 5:17-18[/BIBLEDRB]
Heaven and Earth have not passed.
A
AlanFromWichita
Guest
Divine beings are not restrained by time. Since Jesus was talking about something involving time sequencing I took it as estimation by a Man, rather than a divine proclamation from God.
Besides, never did He say the the heavens and earth passing away would happen to all of us at the same time.
Alan
J
Jenniferolg
Guest
Thank you all for your insight and comments. I do seriously believe that I should be able to defend my faith - because it is my compass. Mostly, I have to explain my faith to young people in preparation for confirmation or other Catholics who have fallen away or become lukewarm and sometimes to other Christians who don’t understand our way of thinking. I have never encountered an actual atheist (not since college anyway). It is tough to refute some of their claims since they don’t share the basic premise with us that God is the great I AM.
Perhaps Bill Maher is a seeker. I hope someone, somewhere can share the Truth with him before it is too late.
Perhaps Bill Maher is a seeker. I hope someone, somewhere can share the Truth with him before it is too late.
M
mdgspencer
Guest
Catholics don’t follow the Mosaic Law. Anyone unsure about this can look in the Book of Leviticus and ask themselves if Catholics follow what it says.
It is good if someone is troubled in such a way looks for answers. Asking about it on Catholic Answers is one good way of investigating.
It is good if someone is troubled in such a way looks for answers. Asking about it on Catholic Answers is one good way of investigating.
H
Hounchell1945
Guest
I do not think you need to be concerned with your son’s position… He seems to have evaluated this Bill Maher’s game. (since your son was upset over Maher’s views)
As to the defense of The Faith regarding the issue of the Law… from the Christian’s perspective… Now that could require much study and meditation…
There are many positions regarding the Law Moses handed down to the people…
After God had given Moses the ten commandments (twice) he then had one of the tribes teach the people the Law… They then took the ten commandments and created 613 laws to describe the original 10… Thus we see that Moses himself found it was necessary to have someone expound the meaning of the law to the people OTHER than the original tables of stone which the very finger of God had created the written law on the two tablets of stone…
One can have brain games with the attempts to comprehend how the scriptures deal with the Law of God and how relates to the people of today…
We had advise from Jesus himself when he said, before one would break a law it would be better for that one person to cut his eye out,or cut off his hand…
One does not too many of those running around… does one?
As for working on a Sabbath… who is against that? where does that Law come from?
From the Churches… and the Churches only…
But… if one was to see that law, in the same of being wrong to violate…
Isn’t it odd, that the only one’s who break that law is the church?
What does a preacher/minister do in order to earn his money?
He preaches, and teaches … when? On the Sabbath…
There fore Preachers get up and work at their trade for money on the Sabbath to tell us not to work on the Sabbath… “Hello?”
Please do not think I am making fun of the Sabbath… As the point I am attempting
to make,is that if you require answers to some of these mysteries… you are going to have to accept that fact that to actually dig into the core of this issue may take some study to attempt to get a hold on it…
There are many aspects to the Law… but which would take too much time and space here to attempt to create a fair presentation of it…
My main objective in this post, is to attempt to convey to you that there are many difficult issues with using mere human mentality to seek to comprehend some mysteries of the Scriptures…
S
Sonseeahray
Guest
Here is some trivia for you…
Capital cases brought before the Grand Sanhedrin in the Temple were based very much on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Also capital cases never extended beyond one day; and sentencing was always done on the following day - except for the trial of Jesus wherein the normal rules were suspended… The Sanhedrin normally met on Thursdays of the week. Weddings were traditionally held on Wednesdays so a deceived groom could have ready access to the court.
The condemned man (or women) on the second day was taken up the west side of the Mount of Olives by a group of officials and witnesses. A crier shouted for anyone who could shed more light on the case to now speak. A man on horseback stood by to quickly carry any new and critical information on the case. Part way up the Mount the group paused to ask the guilty party to confess their crime - they were told that if they would confess - they would have a part in the”world to come.” Under the Old Covenant there was no sacrifice or forgiveness for willful sin; but there is under the better New Covenant.
The group of officials moved further up the Mount and paused again. This time to replace the guilty persons clothes with a loincloth – women also had a top. They were going to the place of stoning, which was considered to be the most severe of their four methods of execution. The “camp” was defined by Joshua to be a 2,000 cubit radius from the Ark of the Covenant or 3,000 feet. And everything that took place in NT times had to be to the east of the Temple. The “camp” covered most of the western side of the Mount of Olives. Also “without the camp” were other things. The Miphkad alter where the red heifer was sacrificed. Also the leper colony; the priestly town of Beth-page and Golgotha or the place of the head. This is where the census was taken and where the pilgrims were held for a week of purification before they could enter the “camp” to attend the feasts.
The group now crossed out of the “camp” designation and approached the place of execution near the top of the Mount of Olives. There was a small stone tower there about 10 – 11 feet high with steps to ascend to the top. The guilty and one of the two witnesses climbed the steps to the top. The record doesn’t say so but I assume that his hands were bound behind him or her. Also I assume from the text that this was a very stoney place. Next – the witness pushes the victim off of the tower head first by pushing him or her on their hips; and the fall often broke their neck. If the victim was still alive the second witness would pick a large stone and slam it into the victim’s chest, but he couldn’t do it if he was lying on his back - only on his side. If he was still alive the remainder of the group of witnesses stoned him also. I’m not sure, but I think the victim was hung on a tree and was usually taken down before nightfall – the tree and the victim were then both burned – I think.
Take note the duty of the two witnesses; if they bore false witness against the victim they would end up being guilty of murder themselves.
Zechariah prophesied that Jesus would be crucified on top of the Mount of Olives: See Zechariah 14:4. Granted it was a Roman execution, but they knew that it had to be “without the camp.”
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Crumpy
Guest
What I said in my previous post, that Jesus has fulfilled the law, hey, this is Biblical.
Reading St. Paul’s letter to the Romans is difficult, but this point is made by St. Paul in the first four or five chapters.
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ChesterBeach
Guest
But you’re putting St.Paul’s words above the Christ’s.
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
People like Maher are under Deuteronomy 28:28
[bibledrb]Deuteronomy 28:28[/bibledrb]
True story:
My oldest son was waiting in the hospital for sinus surgery and my wife called me to ask for a verse to pray with him before going under the knife.
So I say to her: “Go to Deuteronomy 28:28 and then Philippians 4:6-9”
I wanted to say Deuteronomy 29:29 but I play with 28:28 so much that I slipped…
So my wife without reading the verse first, turns her bible to 28:28 and puts her hand on our son and starts reading out loud with all the nurses around!!! She looked around baffled and the nurses started to laugh out loud, while our son was looking puzzled, he is a very literal guy…
She called me a little later and was not too happy about the reference and I asked why… and she told me… the whole thing…
I could not stop laughing for about 15 minutes…
Anyways,
Just ignore ppl like this lost soul looking for attention. Pray for 28:28 to be lifted up
In Him.
[bibledrb]Deuteronomy 28:28[/bibledrb]
True story:
My oldest son was waiting in the hospital for sinus surgery and my wife called me to ask for a verse to pray with him before going under the knife.
So I say to her: “Go to Deuteronomy 28:28 and then Philippians 4:6-9”
I wanted to say Deuteronomy 29:29 but I play with 28:28 so much that I slipped…
So my wife without reading the verse first, turns her bible to 28:28 and puts her hand on our son and starts reading out loud with all the nurses around!!! She looked around baffled and the nurses started to laugh out loud, while our son was looking puzzled, he is a very literal guy…
She called me a little later and was not too happy about the reference and I asked why… and she told me… the whole thing…
I could not stop laughing for about 15 minutes…
Anyways,
Just ignore ppl like this lost soul looking for attention. Pray for 28:28 to be lifted up
In Him.
J
JRKH
Guest
We should not seek to Split the Scriptures by who wrote or said what.
Since the Holy Spirit Caused both to be entered into the canon of Holy Scripture, they are BOTH the words of the Holy Spirit.
Instead, any passages need to be understood in connection with each other
Peace
James
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ChesterBeach
Guest
How can you not ?!? One is a direct proclamation from God and the other the words of man that didn’t even meet Jesus. Even taking in account that St. Paul’s words are divinely inspired. A direct proclamation has to trump an inspired statement.
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
The writers of the gospel didn’t meet Jesus, either. This makes it sound like the pen was actually in Jesus’s hand.
Alan
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ChesterBeach
Guest
Are you saying the verse isn’t the words of Jesus?
J
JRKH
Guest
Chester,
It is agreed that the Bible, as a whole, is inspired of the Holy Spirit and is Inerrant.
Since the Bible as a whole is inerrant, we need to understand one verse in light of other verses that might provide clarification. The Church, the deposit of faith, is very good at doing this and we are fortunate indeed to have her to help us in such matters.
In the matter at hand, you were asking about how one reconciles Jesus words in Mt 5:17-18 with the idea that the Law has been fulfilled through Christ. Romans was offered as support of this notion. You rightly express concern about placing too much emphasis on Paul’s words at the expense of Jesus words.
However, I would argue that the most compelling evidence for the Mosaic Law being fulfilled and no longer binding does not come from Paul, but is to be found in Acts 15 and the council of Jerusalem.
Here, the “Judaizers” seek to enforce the “Law” on Gentile converts. Certainly they had an extreme weight of Scripture on their side and who knows…some may have been with Jesus and even heard the sermon containing Mt 5:17-18. Yet look at the decision of the council - a council attended and chaired by those close to Jesus and charged with “binding and Loosing” - “Whatever”.
The decision of the council was to loose the Gentile converts (and by extension ALL Christians) from compliance with the requirements of Mosaic Law. They did require a couple of specific things, but on the whole, they set aside the OT Law in toto.
Now - these men, taught by Christ Himself and filled the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, saw fit to set aside “jot and tittle” of the Law, and same is recorded in Holy Scripture. In fact, when one reads the context of the letter composed codifying the decision and sent to Antioch, it says, in part, “It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us…” (Acts 15:28).
So -
What does this say about the proper understanding of Christ’s words in Matthew?
If the Law had not been fulfilled, how could it seem “…good to the Holy Spirit…”
Peace
James
It is agreed that the Bible, as a whole, is inspired of the Holy Spirit and is Inerrant.
Since the Bible as a whole is inerrant, we need to understand one verse in light of other verses that might provide clarification. The Church, the deposit of faith, is very good at doing this and we are fortunate indeed to have her to help us in such matters.
In the matter at hand, you were asking about how one reconciles Jesus words in Mt 5:17-18 with the idea that the Law has been fulfilled through Christ. Romans was offered as support of this notion. You rightly express concern about placing too much emphasis on Paul’s words at the expense of Jesus words.
However, I would argue that the most compelling evidence for the Mosaic Law being fulfilled and no longer binding does not come from Paul, but is to be found in Acts 15 and the council of Jerusalem.
Here, the “Judaizers” seek to enforce the “Law” on Gentile converts. Certainly they had an extreme weight of Scripture on their side and who knows…some may have been with Jesus and even heard the sermon containing Mt 5:17-18. Yet look at the decision of the council - a council attended and chaired by those close to Jesus and charged with “binding and Loosing” - “Whatever”.
The decision of the council was to loose the Gentile converts (and by extension ALL Christians) from compliance with the requirements of Mosaic Law. They did require a couple of specific things, but on the whole, they set aside the OT Law in toto.
Now - these men, taught by Christ Himself and filled the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, saw fit to set aside “jot and tittle” of the Law, and same is recorded in Holy Scripture. In fact, when one reads the context of the letter composed codifying the decision and sent to Antioch, it says, in part, “It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us…” (Acts 15:28).
So -
What does this say about the proper understanding of Christ’s words in Matthew?
If the Law had not been fulfilled, how could it seem “…good to the Holy Spirit…”
Peace
James
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ChesterBeach
Guest
I really don’t see how you can’t Jesus’ words more weight than other parts of the Bible. All men are subject to failings even if divinely inspired, David, Moses etc. To give equal weight to men as to God seems to be misguided.
Also using your example -
[BIBLEDRB]Acts 15:20[/BIBLEDRB]
Abstaining from strangled things and blood. Seems to be shorthand for eating Kosher which few Catholics do.
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
I don’t know. You’re the one who brought up the question that Scripture isn’t beyond question, by questioning one section compared against another.
Whatev.
J
JRKH
Guest
“All men are subject to failings, even if divinely inspired.” This is what you say above…
So - Is it possible that the “men” who recorded “Jesus words” “failed” to record them properly??
Do you see the slippery slope this begins to get into??
If we doubt the Scripture text because “All men are subject to failings even if divinely inspired”, how can we have any assurance that any of the texts are accurate.
That said, I agree that we should begin with the teachings of Jesus and then work out from there.
However - since all of Scripture is divinely inspired and inerrant, we cannot dismiss Acts, or the various letters, or indeed the ECF’s, in their ability to offer insight into the totality of Truth contained in the Deposit of Faith.
I’ll be happy to deal with this matter another time. But for now…I would prefer if we stay on target.
The fact is, and this is clearly stated, that the Council of Jerusalem set aside the Mosaic Law…
Now - even if they only set aside the single requirement for circumcision (which is the issue mentioned in Acts 15:1) it means that The Church - headed by those directly taught by Jesus Himself - had changed a “jot and tittle”.
So I ask again…If your view is correct, How could Scripture record:
“For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity.”
Which “necessary things” makes no mention of, circumcision, all of the various sabbath restrictions, eating of pork or shellfish etc…All things set aside by the council of Jerusalem.
This clear instruction From the Holy Spirit of God MUST be taken into account when trying to understand the verse in Mt 5.
Peace
James
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ChesterBeach
Guest
It seems the law is still in effect for Jews (and those Jews that convert) - not for gentiles who follow Christ.“All men are subject to failings, even if divinely inspired.” This is what you say above…
So - Is it possible that the “men” who recorded “Jesus words” “failed” to record them properly??
Do you see the slippery slope this begins to get into??
If we doubt the Scripture text because “All men are subject to failings even if divinely inspired”, how can we have any assurance that any of the texts are accurate.
That said, I agree that we should begin with the teachings of Jesus and then work out from there.
However - since all of Scripture is divinely inspired and inerrant, we cannot dismiss Acts, or the various letters, or indeed the ECF’s, in their ability to offer insight into the totality of Truth contained in the Deposit of Faith.
I’ll be happy to deal with this matter another time. But for now…I would prefer if we stay on target.
The fact is, and this is clearly stated, that the Council of Jerusalem set aside the Mosaic Law…
Now - even if they only set aside the single requirement for circumcision (which is the issue mentioned in Acts 15:1) it means that The Church - headed by those directly taught by Jesus Himself - had changed a “jot and tittle”.
So I ask again…If your view is correct, How could Scripture record:
"For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity."
Which “necessary things” makes no mention of, circumcision, all of the various sabbath restrictions, eating of pork or shellfish etc…All things set aside by the council of Jerusalem.
This clear instruction From the Holy Spirit of God MUST be taken into account when trying to understand the verse in Mt 5.
Peace
James
Gentiles are bound by the laws of Noah. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noahide_laws
This is consistent with Acts 15. It’s what any Rabbi would tell you is required by Gentiles to be in covenant with God.
It doesn’t abolish the law.
[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 15:24[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Matt. 10:5[/BIBLEDRB]
J
JRKH
Guest
You seem to enjoy moving the goalposts…Or else I am not clear on what you have been trying to say or learn…Let’s see if we can stay on line here…
This line of discussion stems from the question you asked in response to a post by Crumpy:
So the question you have appears to be how can the law have been fulfilled since heaven and earth have not passed away.
And if the Law has not been fulfilled, how can there be a change to one jot or tittle…Is that correct??
Peace
James
T
Trevor_Stamm
Guest
Don’t know the point in all this but the verse in Zechariah is not a prophecy of Christ’s crucifixion. Some understand it as His Ascension since He Ascended from there or place of return, not entirely sure but we know for a fact He was crucified on Mount Moriah.
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