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davidv
Guest
See post 152.
Edit:
Please note the that God “perfection” in this case means that His creation could be no better given the objective of creation. This objective is to share Love with His creatures.
- Status
Edit:
Please note the that God “perfection” in this case means that His creation could be no better given the objective of creation. This objective is to share Love with His creatures.
L
_Locke
Guest
Okay, post 152:
davidv:
Meanwhile, my old final point still holds, that is, that your position (that God created the world perfect, and any imperfections are the result of free choice of men not to love) has no evidence whatsoever outside of scripture and church authority, and a great deal of evidence against it: that man has only been around for a couple hundred thousand years at the most, but disease, hunger, predation and natural disasters have been around for billions. If you disagree you’ll have to be specific, and I don’t think anyone with a high school education can seriously argue with the factual component of this point.
Your points (correct me if I’m wrong):
- God is perfect
- God created the world
- By definition, any product of God must be perfect
- One aspect of this perfection is provision for love
- Freedom to love includes freedom not to love
- Any improvements pursue to improve their condition is aimed at increasing love
- By point 3 (that perfection begets perfection) the world should be perfect (which is my argument, if the world was indeed created perfect)
- You need support for point 4; I don’t see how perfection necessarily requires the provision to love
- Point 6 needs support as well; how is trying to better my condition an “attempt at increasing my chance to love?”
- “Not loving” (as a lack of action) causes imperfection, or that
- The imperfection of not loving could result in the world today (draw the line from choosing not to love to cancer or hurricanes)
Meanwhile, my old final point still holds, that is, that your position (that God created the world perfect, and any imperfections are the result of free choice of men not to love) has no evidence whatsoever outside of scripture and church authority, and a great deal of evidence against it: that man has only been around for a couple hundred thousand years at the most, but disease, hunger, predation and natural disasters have been around for billions. If you disagree you’ll have to be specific, and I don’t think anyone with a high school education can seriously argue with the factual component of this point.
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davidv
Guest
Which is due, in my view, to equivocation on the meaning of the word perfect. God’s perfection is not equal to His creatures perfection.
As a starting point:
CCC said:
The purpose of God’s creation is to share love.
Our purpose is to love God and neighbor. When we don’t we and others suffer. When we love, we fulfill our purpose and become happier and those around us experience a better world.
I am not a professional philosopher, nor have I had formal training at logic, so it is quite likely that I won’t ever make my case. However, a poorly made case only hides, rather than changes truth.
I submit that it was created perfect. However, it did not take long for humans to corrupt it.
Why aren’t these valid evidence?
Your dating cannot be taken as fact as it they estimates based on theories. So what is the factual component?
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MarcusAndreas
Guest
If I was God?…what would you do differently? Or what would you do in general? Later in the thread I will present my view, but not right now, because if I did then most of the posts would be just some criticism, and not presenting your own ideas about the subject.
Let’s just say I described how I’d run the show to some friends once, and my one friend said “Thank God you’re not god.”
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Ichthys4121517
Guest
While it is true that it wasn’t necesary for God to create the universe, it was a choice that reflected God’s generous and humble nature. Your argument actually supports Christianity. Which God would you respect more - a God who just kept to Himself and refused to share his love and grace with anyone else, or a God who humbled Himself enough to create what wasn’t really necessary for Him, but that grants us happiness and gives Himself more glory as well?Well said! For a being, which is perfect, self-sufficient, who needs nothing, it would be completely illogical to do anything. After all, the road can only lead downhill from the top. Perfection can only be lessened by creating anything. (God+world < God)
To the other posters: you don’t want to criticize the “boss”? Are you “afraid” of possible repercussions?
I know that might not make much sense (judging a certain God who, if He existed and didn’t create, therefore wouldn’t coexist with you, who would judge Him, in the first place), but my point is basically that God is an “overachiever”. He does more than is necessary. If that means some people might hate Him for that, so be it.
I apologize if this isn’t a really good defense; understand that I’m young and I’m not a theologian by any means.
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Bub
Guest
If i were God, i would prefer to stay lonely over creating a miserable world where many suffer in it, or to create a total happy world and make my presence shown…what would you do differently? Or what would you do in general? Later in the thread I will present my view, but not right now, because if I did then most of the posts would be just some criticism, and not presenting your own ideas about the subject.
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Tamsulosin
Guest
That totally happy place exists,and it is called heaven.You will enjoy God’s presence there. Jesus said He was the way.You have the choice of following that path and get safely there.
Start fixing your eyes on that goal and start pretasting the peace, joy and strength that comes with it.
Good luck in your journey.
Tam
Start fixing your eyes on that goal and start pretasting the peace, joy and strength that comes with it.
Good luck in your journey.
Tam
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Bub
Guest
maybe, but what i meant is that if i were a god, i would create only a ‘‘heaven’’, no other places of sufferings would be necessary.
best, for you too.
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Bub
Guest
What’s the point of creating angels?But then what’s the point of creating it? If you fill it with people, they won’t appreciate it. If you incarnate yourself and promise it to them, they will enjoy it as it makes up for the sufferings of this earth.
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Bub
Guest
Exactly, if i were god, ill also put all living creatures in a place like heaven. and to not create such a thing called pain
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Charlemagne_II
Guest
If I were God, I would sit in a birch grove and whittle rods for beating people who speculate about what they would do if they were God. 
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Bub
Guest
Then you’ll start by yourselfIf I were God, I would sit in a birch grove and whittle rods for beating people who speculate about what they would do if they were God.
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
Bub
*“The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn us into atheists, at the bottom of the glass we’ll turn into Gods.” *
Megalomania 101
*“The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn us into atheists, at the bottom of the glass we’ll turn into Gods.” *
Megalomania 101
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Bub
Guest
In an intellectual way as ‘gods’ ,not biologically or physically , Jesus said we are all gods, didn’t he?Bub
*“The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn us into atheists, at the bottom of the glass we’ll turn into Gods.” *
Megalomania 101
a genius person (or scientist) can create life, save lives, respect life, or kill lives. it depends on us to be good gods or not, this has nothing to do with Megalomania 101
the more you get into intelligence, the more you become as a ‘god’, able to create, save lives ( as good scientists do)
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Kate50
Guest
The point could be love. And why are you so sure people wouldn’t appreciate it? Just some education would be all it takes. For example, I have never personally fought in a war, but I appreciate not having to, thanks to education.But then what’s the point of creating it? If you fill it with people, they won’t appreciate it. If you incarnate yourself and promise it to them, they will enjoy it as it makes up for the sufferings of this earth.
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BlueShadow123
Guest
I wouldn’t create sin to be a possibility. because sin is what causes suffering, and if I were god, I wouldn’t allow that. And for the person who is going to say that god doesn’t cause sin, its humans…
I say back to you that god is the one that ALLOWED it to be a possibility. If sin wasn’t even an existing thought or idea, there would be no way possible for any human/spirit or whatever to sin at all.
I would not even allow sin to be a thought. If I had all power, NOBODY would be suffering. And I also wouldn’t create a world that has flaws. Because flaws are results of sin, and I would not allow sin to even be possible.
But I guess we’d all do things differently.
I hope someday we will find out why god planned things out and did things the way he did.
Because personally I think he could have made a few adjustments. But then again all our opinions are meaningless to the opinions of gods because he is the one that created everything after all and we just can’t understand all of it… We just don’t understand the answers to everything. Hopefully we will someday.
I say back to you that god is the one that ALLOWED it to be a possibility. If sin wasn’t even an existing thought or idea, there would be no way possible for any human/spirit or whatever to sin at all.
I would not even allow sin to be a thought. If I had all power, NOBODY would be suffering. And I also wouldn’t create a world that has flaws. Because flaws are results of sin, and I would not allow sin to even be possible.
But I guess we’d all do things differently.
I hope someday we will find out why god planned things out and did things the way he did.
Because personally I think he could have made a few adjustments.
But then again all our opinions are meaningless to the opinions of gods because he is the one that created everything after all and we just can’t understand all of it… We just don’t understand the answers to everything. Hopefully we will someday.- Status