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1ke
Guest
So it seems that your issue stems from your own prejudice against Muslim nannies.
If you're an usher at mass, What Would You Do in this situation?
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
The ushers need to lead the late comers to where the empty seats are, if they are up front then they should lead them there. The usher should tell the late comer to follow them and then they should walk up to where the empty seat is. If the late comer does not follow the usher should motions to them to come.
If they find this embarrassing because they are “announcing their lateness” then maybe it will correct this bad behavior and next time to avoid this embarrassment they will show up early.
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catharina
Guest
Great post, Brother David.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Thank you.
And in my book, the advice I give, and will give if I ever become a pastor and/or spiritual director is that one has missed Mass if they come in any time after the processional hymn.
All this legalism about when you can show up at Mass for it to count is counter productive.
The opening prayer, the penitential rite, the Old Testament reading, the Responsorial Psalm, and the Epistle Reading are all important, just as important as the Gospel reading.
So for me, if you show up for the Gospel reading and the rest you have missed Mass.
The “Obligation” is to assist at Mass on Sundays and Holy Days, not to assist at part of the Mass.
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InspiritCarol
Guest
I’ll do you one more and say that to show up for Mass early enough to relax into a prayerful attitude adds more than can be measured.
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davidsunrise
Guest
I did this a few times and the reactions were predictable, the late comers refused to go to the empty seats all the way in the front. So I thought, doing the same thing again would be useless because these late comers would not follow me.
The psychology of embarrassment as explained above, is an excellent idea for ushers to practice in dealing with late comers. Some of them are always late…and is becoming a habit because they never experience any embarrassment of coming late.
Thanks for the suggestion Brother David!
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1ke
Guest
Well, sure. But people beg off and do not follow the ushers. It’s not like “usher” is any sort of official liturgical position. It’s not. It’s simply a courtesy position. The usher might motion people forward and they will shake their head no and stay where they are.
Also, in many parishes there are rules about people walking around during various parts of the mass.
For example, in my old parish (seating capacity of 2000) ushers held people at the back during the proclaiming of the Word and through the homily. Only when the congregation stood for the Creed were people allowed to file in to seats if they arrived after everyone was seated for the readings.
It’s my experience that in general late people will stand the whole mass or squeeze into a back pew rather than walk up front, usher or no usher.
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1ke
Guest
You do not have authority to say they have not fulfilled their obligation based on your own personal criteria.
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1ke
Guest
Aha, I see, so there are actually empty spaces in your church. It is not a matter of these Muslim women taking up the *only *seats, which would still be perfectly fine even if they were the only seats, but rather its only about seats that the latecomers would prefer.
Again, this just seems to smack of prejudice or racism when it comes to the domestic workers. There isn’t really a problem here, just your inordinate prejudice against these women.
It’s not a very Christian mindset at all.
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CB_Catholic
Guest
When people who are not Catholic come to a Catholic Mass we should follow the rules of hospitality, which is to make them feel welcome and even sacrifice our own comfort for them. Even if they are there every week, like the Muslim babysitters. They are guests in our home. And you never know when the Holy Spirit is going to convict someone, or if you’re “entertaining” an angel.
If you are a habitual latecomer, too bad. It is not the fault of the guests that you are late. You just have to stand. (But if one really wants to do the Christian thing, they would get up and give them their seat, but not too many people buy into that.)
My Pastor would address the problem of overcrowding every Christmas and Easter like this: get up and give the people who only show up for Christmas and Easter your seat.
People who are habitually late for things are difficult to reform. Embarrassing them usually does not cure them. They seriously cannot figure out how to be on time for something, and they may try very hard, but they allow other things to distract them. They have problems prioritizing things. My friends and I have a friend who is always late. Something always happens to make her late, and she is embarrased and apologizes, but it never gets any better. My daughter is the same way, she lives on the edge. Always a few minutes late for everything. I tried for years to correct that while she was growing up, showing her how to organize, making her face the consequences of being late, etc., and it got better, but it didn’t cure her. The only time she was ever early was when she had her babies–both were preemies
Just thought I’d throw my 2 cents in.
If you are a habitual latecomer, too bad. It is not the fault of the guests that you are late. You just have to stand. (But if one really wants to do the Christian thing, they would get up and give them their seat, but not too many people buy into that.)
My Pastor would address the problem of overcrowding every Christmas and Easter like this: get up and give the people who only show up for Christmas and Easter your seat.
People who are habitually late for things are difficult to reform. Embarrassing them usually does not cure them. They seriously cannot figure out how to be on time for something, and they may try very hard, but they allow other things to distract them. They have problems prioritizing things. My friends and I have a friend who is always late. Something always happens to make her late, and she is embarrased and apologizes, but it never gets any better. My daughter is the same way, she lives on the edge. Always a few minutes late for everything. I tried for years to correct that while she was growing up, showing her how to organize, making her face the consequences of being late, etc., and it got better, but it didn’t cure her. The only time she was ever early was when she had her babies–both were preemies
Just thought I’d throw my 2 cents in.
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davidsunrise
Guest
Maybe there is a misjudgment that results from your misunderstanding of how racism plays in Indonesia. I let you judge if I have prejudice against muslim baby sitters.
Most families in Indonesia low-middle class to upper class have at least one live-in maid and sometimes if they have big house, there can be 2, 3, 4, 5 live-in maids. For families with small children, it’s very common to see live-in baby sitters. It’s also common to have full time driver. Their salaries are very affordable, around $50-$60 for the maids, $100-$120/month for baby sitters, and $200 for the drivers. All room and board paid. 99% of these maids, baby-sitters, and drivers are muslims.
I myself used to hire some live-in muslim baby sitters to take care of my babies. Right now, I have a full time muslim driver and 2 live-in muslim maids; one is for cleaning everything and the other one is for taking care of the needs of my children. I certainly can take one of these maids to go to the mass with me for my own convenience because sometimes during the mass, my children ask for going to the bathroom, …but I don’t, because I like these maids to rest on Sunday whenever possible. All of my employees are muslims and I give facility for them to do their daily prayers in one of the office rooms. I also give annual vacation for these muslim workers during their big islamic holiday.
Indonesia has more than 200 million muslims and in my youth, I used to have muslim girlfriend. And until today, if I am not married yet, I will certainly be attracted to some muslim girls. I study islam and I know how to recite many of the quran verses. I have excellent relationship with some muslim families and I also have a lot of good muslim friends in my workplace.
I am a parent and I used to have babies with live-in muslim baby sitters who took care of my babies day and night. I always managed to go to church without bringing my baby sitters, saving the seats for other catholics who needed them, whether they come early or late. In the US, there are so many families too who don’t have live-in baby sitters and they can manage to go to church with their babies. It’s just a matter of pure convenience for some lazy ignorant parents that these muslim baby-sitters are ordered to take the seats which otherwise be available for those who come early or late.
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catharina
Guest
Frankly, that is your assumption.
In reality, it is none of your business.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
The Church has no critera for this so all we have is the personal interpretations of our pastors in this matter.
If I am asked this is how I will respond added that the Church has no officially stated guideline. Then I will use logic as I did in stating my opinion. The Church says that one must assist at Mass to fill their “obligation”, it does not say assist at a partial Mass.
Yes I have no authority, but when asked for my opinion I will give it.
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Zooey
Guest
Your Friendly Neighborhood Methodist advises: :byzsoc:
:byzsoc: like your life depended on it that something sinks in. They might just learn enough to want to know more, & someday maybe they will be there as Christian believers, praying for somebody else’s Muslim babysitters.You never know.
:twocents:
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catharina
Guest
Totally agree.
Your Friendly Neighborhood Methodist advises: :byzsoc:
You never know.
:twocents:
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angelic06
Guest
I agree with all of this: first, the part about the babysitters’ presence at Mass doing them some good. AND also, that whosoever arrives first gets first dips at the available, regardless of religion, and also, that it is scandalous when people of other faith traditions arrive before us Catholics, and finally, the last sentence: what do non-Catholics think of us and about our holy religion when the followers of it do not make Mass an important part of their lives? What do they think about our supposed belief in the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist?Two things:
–Jen
- *** The babysitters are in the presense of Jesus. Even if they don’t realize it, it may be doing them good.
- People should come on time to Mass. People who are at Mass on time get preference in seating, regardless of whether they are Catholics or not. It is scandalous that so many Muslims are making it to Mass before the Catholics. If nothing else, how does it effect the Muslims’ understanding of the importance of the Mass, if people just show up for the bare minimum? *** (Actually, when I was a teenager, my father would have made me go to a later Mass if I hadn’t gotten there by the Gospel Acclamations. It was only after I came back to the Church that I realized that it wasn’t part of Canon Law.
)
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angelic06
Guest
I also agree with this.
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angelic06
Guest
Well, just as a word of history, back in the old old old days, they were, under the title of “porter”.
orthodoxwiki.org/Doorkeeper
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angelic06
Guest
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puzzleannie
Guest
this is a wonderfurl problem to have, I bet more pastors wish they had this problem
regardless you can’t kick some people out to make room for latecomers. You can perhaps in a nearby building or hall set up a nursery for children below school age where the babysitters can take them during Mass, which would solve 2 problems at once.
I am sure your pastor has already thought about a capital campaign to enlarge the church or build a new one.
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