If you're an usher at mass, What Would You Do in this situation?

[Deckie]

I can understand the gentlemans plight.If they are not asked to be quiet then they may not know that they are doing wrong.If they insist on talking then let them.You are an usher not a bouncer.Getting to Mass on time is an international problem,but these parents couldnt be up to much if they cant get there on time even with sitters

 

[InspiritCarol]

Guys, please, could we give davidsunrise a break here.

Look at it this way: have you ever been on public transportation during rush hour and seen a painfully decrepit person needing a seat and not being offered one? Obviously we give them our seats; but what if we are not sitting. Personally, I have, on many occasions politely pointed out the person standing to the person in the seat. Every single time the person sitting came to their senses and gave up their seat. No judgments involved, you know, maybe the person sitting is in just as much pain as the person standing but we just don’t see it. Leave it to the person sitting to recognize the situation.

I think davidsunrise just has this kind of overactive empathy and a keen sense of being in a position to potentially “help” the situation.

Give him credit, he came here and didn’t just do what he wanted to do. Clearly he wants to do what’s right. Yes?

I think the consensus from everyone is: the babysitters have every right to the seats they occupy.

Now, if certain people are being noisy and disruptive consistently, that is a different matter and really should be handled delicately. Again, I suggest bringing the matter before the parish council to handle one of four ways: 1. address the matter directly to the parishioners, but delicately; this requires extraordinary aplomb and generally is not advised; 2. create an alternative scenario where there is some sort of “cry room” - this is a poor solution also in that the children are not benefitting from the mass; 3. ignore it. The 4th way I would suggest is to create some kind of education program that does not target anyone specifically, but that gives babysitters, caregivers and parents tools for controlling children in a positive manner.

There is a certain disconnect that happens between inexperienced bosses and the labor they (we) pay for. We expect the help to know more about what they are *supposed *to be doing than they usually do comprehend in reality. Understand? When the labor does not do what we expect of them, we are generally at a loss as to how to deal with it; especially if we are not used to being in charge of adults.

So we have parents who can’t address the situation
we have ushers who can’t address the situation
we have babysitters who can’t address the situation

yet we do, admittedly have a bad situation in that the holy Mass is being … neglected (for want of a better word)… on some discernable level.

Now, maybe it is just that davidsunrise has an overactive sense of empathy, or what have you; but maybe it is a problem that is crying out for some sort of intervention. Personally, I would jump on the chance of gaining some insight into how to make my kids behave better in Mass. There must never be expectations, but helpful, productive suggestions for babysitters, caregivers, parents … whoever feels they would benefit from such.

Do this outside of the Mass setting. Make it *very /I impersonal. I’m envisioning quarterly workshops or something of the like.

If it’s about infirm people needing seats, have some folding chairs tucked back in a closet somewhere to pull out when needed. davidsunrise, you might be surprised when some people you feel certain would take a seat, flatly refuse you.

Now we need to start a thread on how we can get people to Mass earlier. lol Yah… right.*

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Guys, please, could we give davidsunrise a break here.

Look at it this way: have you ever been on public transportation during rush hour and seen a painfully decrepit person needing a seat and not being offered one? Obviously we give them our seats; but what if we are not sitting. Personally, I have, on many occasions politely pointed out the person standing to the person in the seat. Every single time the person sitting came to their senses and gave up their seat. No judgments involved, you know, maybe the person sitting is in just as much pain as the person standing but we just don’t see it. Leave it to the person sitting to recognize the situation.

Your analogy with a full train to this situation does not work.

Davidsunrise has stated that it is only the pews in the back that are full. He has said that there are open pews in the front. For your analogy to work this person on the train must refuse to take an open seat and want a seat that someone is sitting in.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I once discussed this with my fellow ushers and they are upset with my idea and warned me that the Catholic church should welcome non-catholics to sit together with catholics during the mass.

I agree…but these baby sitters come to the mass at the order of their boss who pay them. These muslim baby sitters don’t go to the mass because they are interested in anything catholic. They are just doing the job.

it’s a different story if they go to the mass…on their will… because they want to learn about catholicism.

Maybe they will absorb the atmosphere and find themselves curious or interested. You never know, and it’s not up to you to decide that they can’t be there. Their way of life (it’s more than just a religion, as you must know) is in the majority where you are, so be happy you have a church at all. Pray for their conversion.

 

[InspiritCarol]

Your analogy with a full train to this situation does not work.

Davidsunrise has stated that it is only the pews in the back that are full. He has said that there are open pews in the front. For your analogy to work this person on the train must refuse to take an open seat and want a seat that someone is sitting in.

Have you seen an old lady try to push herself to the front of a crowded church?

It is HARD.

Plus, when you are old and disabled, there is a sense of shame that goes with your problem. You do not feel like parading it to the world.

In a sense they are trapped at the back. For many reasons.

Also, some old people do literally take hours to get ready for church on a minimalist level. If one little thing goes wrong, like a sock gets stuck or something; even if they start preparing at 5:30 in the AM for 11AM Mass, they will be late.

There are no absolutes.

There IS room for charity here is all I am saying.

 

[jmcrae]

1. Many late parishioners don’t get to sit at the pew that has the kneeler because the otherwise empty seats have been taken by these muslim baby sitters who sit there as ordered by the parents. Is this fair?

It is what it is. Fairness doesn’t really enter into it. What are you going to do - tell them that because they are not Christians, they have to stand outside and wait? I don’t think that would go over very well - everyone is supposed to be welcome at Mass.

Of course, you could ask them to lower their voices, and point out to them that people are trying to hear the preaching, or they are trying to pray.

 

[puzzleannie]

Mayb. It’s just a matter of pure convenience for some lazy ignorant parents that these muslim baby-sitters are ordered to take the seats which otherwise be available for those who come early or late.

aha, now we are getting somewhere
your issue is with lazy Catholic parents who for some reason hire babysitters, yet don’t leave the baby home with the sitter (yes most American parents will have trouble understanding the purpose of paying a sitter if your kids are with you). We also don’t understand why that makes them lazy, just wasting good money and a losing a chance to participate at Mass without the distraction of children.
You could have just left out the word “muslim” and we could have got to the issue more readily.

Then the pastor, not you, has the responsibility to tell people to leave their underage children home with a sitter.
Unless your pastor has given you a directive, you as an usher really cannot go around telling people to leave.

 

[davidsunrise]

aha, now we are getting somewhere
your issue is with lazy Catholic parents who for some reason hire babysitters, yet don’t leave the baby home with the sitter (yes most American parents will have trouble understanding the purpose of paying a sitter if your kids are with you). We also don’t understand why that makes them lazy, just wasting good money and a losing a chance to participate at Mass without the distraction of children. You could have just left out the word “muslim” and we could have got to the issue more readily. Then the pastor, not you, has the responsibility to tell people to leave their underage children home with a sitter. Unless your pastor has given you a directive, you as an usher really cannot go around telling people to leave.

That’s right, I have no issue with the muslim but the lazy parents who unnecessarily cost other parishioners their seats. There are portable (folded) chairs available at the back for late comers. Since these chairs have no kneelers, is it wise to tell these muslim babysitters to sit at those chairs at the back and let the other catholics take over their seats in the pews? Those baby sitters will be still inside the church and they will be in the presence of Jesus just like other catholics who sit at the very back of the church, and without kneelers.

My thinking is…since you don’t use the kneelers, I give you the chairs that have no kneelers and I let other people take over your seats because they need the kneelers, especially during the consecration.
I notice, maybe only one or two hard core catholics who actually get down from their chairs and kneel on the hard floor during the consecration. Most of them will just sit comfortably in those chairs without ever kneeling at all. So when everyone else is kneeling during the consecration, these baby sitters waste the kneelers and the catholics sitting in the chairs, because there is no kneelers, they too, just sit there. I wish they could use the kneelers being wasted by these muslim baby sitters.

Do you guys get my point? Am I being uncharitable to think this way? Please correct me. Thanks.

 

[catharina]

That’s right, I have no issue with the muslim but the lazy parents who unnecessarily cost other parishioners their seats. There are portable (folded) chairs available at the back for late comers. Since these chairs have no kneelers, is it wise to tell these muslim babysitters to sit at those chairs at the back and let the other catholics take over their seats in the pews? Those baby sitters will be still inside the church and they will be in the presence of Jesus just like other catholics who sit at the very back of the church, and without kneelers.

My thinking is…since you don’t use the kneelers, I give you the chairs that have no kneelers and I let other people take over your seats because they need the kneelers, especially during the consecration.
I notice, maybe only one or two hard core catholics who actually get down from their chairs and kneel on the hard floor during the consecration. Most of them will just sit comfortably in those chairs without ever kneeling at all. So when everyone else is kneeling during the consecration, these baby sitters waste the kneelers and the catholics sitting in the chairs, because there is no kneelers, they too, just sit there. I wish they could use the kneelers being wasted by these muslim baby sitters.

Do you guys get my point? Am I being uncharitable to think this way? Please correct me. Thanks.

It’s likely that you are being very uncharitable with your thinking.
Also the other ushers have cautioned you to leave the issue alone.
You seem to havve become fixated on this “problem.”

Better really, if you approach the pastor and suggest additional Masses
at the parish. As I said before, priests can be “borrowed” on a regular
basis from schools/universities and asked to commit to offering a Sunday
Mass at your parish. If your parish is way overcrowded and that is the
central problem then that is what needs to be addressed.

I’ll repeat that overcrowding was an enormous issue for many parishes
here in the States, thanks to the huge generation of Baby Boomers after
WW-II. The only solution that worked then? Additional Masses. One of
the Carmelites who came every Sunday became a “regular” in the eyes
of all parishoners, although his real work was as a teacher at a high school.

 

[vsedriver]

The seats are just limited. And these already limited number of seats are taken by non-catholics who have no interests at all about catholicism other than doing their job for the convenience of their boss.

Since you say there are seats available at the front of the church and that latecomers refuse to take advantage of this then I don’t see a problem. Late comers can choose to come early or take seats up front. No need to eject anyone, no matter who they are, for their seat.

If overcrowding becomes a serious issue then talk to the priest about adding another Mass. That would solve everyone’s problem.

 

[jmcrae]

People who are habitually late for things are difficult to reform. Embarrassing them usually does not cure them. They seriously cannot figure out how to be on time for something, and they may try very hard, but they allow other things to distract them. They have problems prioritizing things. My friends and I have a friend who is always late. Something always happens to make her late, and she is embarrased and apologizes, but it never gets any better. My daughter is the same way, she lives on the edge. Always a few minutes late for everything. I tried for years to correct that while she was growing up, showing her how to organize, making her face the consequences of being late, etc., and it got better, but it didn’t cure her. The only time she was ever early was when she had her babies–both were preemies

Just thought I’d throw my 2 cents in.

This is very true. They simply cannot focus on the door. They could be halfway through putting on their coat, and something would happen inside the house, and they would look away from the door and at whatever it was that happened, and that’s the end of it - they don’t get out the door, because you can’t go to where you are not looking. Not very quickly, anyway.

But I liked that line in “Reservoir Dogs” - the one gangster says to the other gangster, “Sorry I’m late. There was traffic.” And the other gangster says to him, “What - did they just recently invent traffic, and it caught you by surprise that there was traffic? You should have known that there would be traffic, and you should have left earlier, so that you would avoid it.”

 

[angelic06]

My thinking is…since you don’t use the kneelers, I give you the chairs that have no kneelers and I let other people take over your seats because they need the kneelers, especially during the consecration.
I notice, maybe only one or two hard core catholics who actually get down from their chairs and kneel on the hard floor during the consecration. Most of them will just sit comfortably in those chairs without ever kneeling at all. So when everyone else is kneeling during the consecration, ***these baby sitters waste the kneelers ***and the catholics sitting in the chairs, because there is no kneelers, they too, just sit there. I wish they could use the kneelers being wasted by these muslim baby sitters.

Do you guys get my point? Am I being uncharitable to think this way? Please correct me. Thanks.

If their are no kneelers available, then is it not permitted for the people to stand? That’s what what a congregation my sister and I visited did when we visited a church which was in the middle of renovation.

Waste? This sounds mean to me. Let the people who want them come to Mass first. Period.

 

[revert_jen]

People who are habitually late for things are difficult to reform. Embarrassing them usually does not cure them. They seriously cannot figure out how to be on time for something, and they may try very hard, but they allow other things to distract them.

As a person with this problem, I have to agree with the content above (although perhaps not the tone). I have tried all my life to be on time for things, and although I have managed to go from about 15 minutes late for everything to a bit less than 5 minutes late for everything, it has been quite a struggle. It does not mean that I am stupid. (And no, please do NOT offer me advice on how to fix this. I have thought of most things myself, and the rest have already been suggested by friends.)

My solution for Mass has been to join the choir, so instead of being 5 minutes late for Mass, I am instead 5 minutes late for the choir rehearsal before Mass (an hour before Mass starts). When it is important, sometimes you can find a way. I’m still late for the dentist.

I know that people don’t understand this problem. Perhaps it would be good if people at least saw that it is a problem that they don’t understand, and were a bit kinder about it. I personally can’t understand tone-deafness. You hear a pitch, you match it–it’s easy. But I do know that for others it is not easy, and that’s really unfortunate for them. Chronic lateness seems to be a similar sort of problem, and it would be more charitable not to treat it as a moral failing. However, in the same way that the tone-deaf person is prevented from joining the choir, I accept the consequences of my own problem and if I arrive late somewhere where seating is limited, I expect to stand.

However, there is another category of people who are regularly late for Mass. Those people are on time for business meetings, dentist appointments, dinner dates, and so forth, but are not on time to Mass. They are on time for things they think are important, and the Mass does not fall into that category. These are the people who can be helped by rather pointed homilies about why it is important to be on time for Mass.

It is impossible (and inappropriate) to determine which category any individual person belongs to. But if you remember that both types exist, you can be kind to individual latecomers, while still encouraging your pastor to mention the importance of timeliness in his homily.

–Jen

 

[jmcrae]

As a person with this problem, I have to agree with the content above (although perhaps not the tone). I have tried all my life to be on time for things, and although I have managed to go from about 15 minutes late for everything to a bit less than 5 minutes late for everything, it has been quite a struggle. It does not mean that I am stupid. (And no, please do NOT offer me advice on how to fix this. I have thought of most things myself, and the rest have already been suggested by friends.)

My solution for Mass has been to join the choir, so instead of being 5 minutes late for Mass, I am instead 5 minutes late for the choir rehearsal before Mass (an hour before Mass starts). When it is important, sometimes you can find a way. I’m still late for the dentist.

I know that people don’t understand this problem. Perhaps it would be good if people at least saw that it is a problem that they don’t understand, and were a bit kinder about it. I personally can’t understand tone-deafness. You hear a pitch, you match it–it’s easy. But I do know that for others it is not easy, and that’s really unfortunate for them. Chronic lateness seems to be a similar sort of problem, and it would be more charitable not to treat it as a moral failing. However, in the same way that the tone-deaf person is prevented from joining the choir, I accept the consequences of my own problem and if I arrive late somewhere where seating is limited, I expect to stand.

However, there is another category of people who are regularly late for Mass. Those people are on time for business meetings, dentist appointments, dinner dates, and so forth, but are not on time to Mass. They are on time for things they think are important, and the Mass does not fall into that category. These are the people who can be helped by rather pointed homilies about why it is important to be on time for Mass.

It is impossible (and inappropriate) to determine which category any individual person belongs to. But if you remember that both types exist, you can be kind to individual latecomers, while still encouraging your pastor to mention the importance of timeliness in his homily.

–Jen

I assume you’ve tried setting your aim for 15 minutes earlier than the scheduled start time?

 

[revert_jen]

(And no, please do NOT offer me advice on how to fix this. I have thought of most things myself, and the rest have already been suggested by friends.)

I assume you’ve tried setting your aim for 15 minutes earlier than the scheduled start time?

Yes.

 

[jmcrae]

Yes.

And you leave the house 45 minutes ahead of time, and you don’t stop for anything except red lights?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

As a person with this problem, I have to agree with the content above (although perhaps not the tone). I have tried all my life to be on time for things, and although I have managed to go from about 15 minutes late for everything to a bit less than 5 minutes late for everything, it has been quite a struggle. It does not mean that I am stupid. (And no, please do NOT offer me advice on how to fix this. I have thought of most things myself, and the rest have already been suggested by friends.)

My solution for Mass has been to join the choir, so instead of being 5 minutes late for Mass, I am instead 5 minutes late for the choir rehearsal before Mass (an hour before Mass starts). When it is important, sometimes you can find a way. I’m still late for the dentist.

I know that people don’t understand this problem. Perhaps it would be good if people at least saw that it is a problem that they don’t understand, and were a bit kinder about it. I personally can’t understand tone-deafness. You hear a pitch, you match it–it’s easy. But I do know that for others it is not easy, and that’s really unfortunate for them. Chronic lateness seems to be a similar sort of problem, and it would be more charitable not to treat it as a moral failing. However, in the same way that the tone-deaf person is prevented from joining the choir, I accept the consequences of my own problem and if I arrive late somewhere where seating is limited, I expect to stand.

However, there is another category of people who are regularly late for Mass. Those people are on time for business meetings, dentist appointments, dinner dates, and so forth, but are not on time to Mass. They are on time for things they think are important, and the Mass does not fall into that category. These are the people who can be helped by rather pointed homilies about why it is important to be on time for Mass.

It is impossible (and inappropriate) to determine which category any individual person belongs to. But if you remember that both types exist, you can be kind to individual latecomers, while still encouraging your pastor to mention the importance of timeliness in his homily.

–Jen

Jen,
I admit that this problem is one I do not understand but I also admit that it exists.

I have the opposite problem, I am always early to events so much so sometimes that I have to drive around the block a couple of times to make it not so much.

All I object to is those who have this problem who wish those of us who do not have it to make accommodations for them, such as not sitting where we want (in the back pews) so that those with this problem have a seat.

 

[revert_jen]

And you leave the house 45 minutes ahead of time, and you don’t stop for anything except red lights?

May I ask why you are getting on my case? Why do you care whether I am 5 minutes late to the dentist? The dentist doesn’t care–he’s usually 10 minutes late. I already explained that I’m not late for Mass.

If the point was just to make me sorry I brought it up as a reason to treat others charitably, you have succeeded.

–Jen

 

[revert_jen]

All I object to is those who have this problem who wish those of us who do not have it to make accommodations for them, such as not sitting where we want (in the back pews) so that those with this problem have a seat.

Of course. That’s just common sense and common courtesy. If you are late, for whatever reason, you take whatever seating is left (if any). That includes, IMO, not making people who are already seated scoot into the center of the pew if they would prefer that you squish past them to the seat in the middle of the pew.

OTOH, it is also nice not to scowl at them as they make their way to the forward pews or squish past. (I’m not suggesting that you personally do this, but certainly I have seen it, from where I am sitting with the rest of the choir.)

–Jen

P.S. I’m really sorry, folks, that I have (hopefully temporarily) derailed this thread. I didn’t think it through properly.

 

[jmcrae]

May I ask why you are getting on my case? Why do you care whether I am 5 minutes late to the dentist? The dentist doesn’t care–he’s usually 10 minutes late. I already explained that I’m not late for Mass.

If the point was just to make me sorry I brought it up as a reason to treat others charitably, you have succeeded.

–Jen

Forget it. I didn’t mean to be “on your case.” My curiosity got the better of me.